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I have wondered if a male kingsnake will have a higher viable sperm count if they eat well prior to breeding........I do believe that females produce follicles from caloric intake.....Does it increase the probability of the males to fertilize the ovum if they are fed well prior to breeding?

It can only help.....right?

I know that most males have no interest in food after emerging from brumation so I try to make sure they get lots of food prior to October then let them clear their stomachs before the temps get lowered..........

I don't know if it is just me trying to prove my hypothesis correct but it seems if you bring the breeder males up 2 weeks prior to females they have interest in feeding. In the years past I brought them up together and seldom had males that wanted to feed...........

And....I have never had a real great year with lots of fertile eggs like I should......I am hoping that this year will be different since I brought the males up early and fed them a few meals prior to bringing the females up......

Please share your thoughts......
And thank you in advance......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Here's my experience so far...I always bring males and females up together except for this year I brought up my L.ruthveni males a week or so earlier than the females.

I have really had no problems with my male milks or L.p.knoblochi not eating at least for the first 4 to 6 weeks out of cooling. At this time my males and females get fed smaller meals more often unless they have decent weight on them already. By more often I mean if they are eating full grown mice going into cooling they are getting 2 hoppers/weanlings every 2 to 4 days.( just using basic judgement on size of prey)Sometimes you get that male that just lost more weight than the rest and he will be fed 2-3 hoppers everyday. After the 6th week or so, I have seen a tendency of the males to slack off and only eat maybe 2 to 3 times over the next 6 to 8 weeks.

Now to touch on viable sperm, I can't say much for kings but my L.t.campelli over a course of 4 years I did notice that if I had a infertile first clutch with a certain female and put the same male back in with the same female 6 out of 8 times it was an infertile second clutch. Meaning to me that the male was just not producing viable sperm.

I did have last year, a female lay infertile clutches twice with two different males. The second male I used produced a fertile clutch with a virgin female. Female issue???

I guess next purchase needs to be a microscope to view viable sperm or not... Just my experiences, and I hope you guys can understand my babbling.
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Jimmy Tintle

I've had some success (not alot) with offering multiple smaller prey items, but some males were just dead set on not wanting to eat.......

I think a couple things come into play here.....
Pheromones from the females and husbandry......
I, by choice do not like to turn on the heat cables during the spring....I have always thought it would kill viable sperm if it was hot......I like to keep the room at around 75F and I do not let it get over 80F......The females and the males have been chowing down this year at these temps....In years past they wouldn't as much as this year......

I have thought also that if the female produces all these follicles/eggs that it is the male's fault when she lays infertile clutches.....She did her job, right?...I dunno...it could be the female's as well as you mentioned Jimmy......but I know it's really the keeper's fault....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

All in all, everything is the keepers fault if they don't reproduce or thrive. She reproduced 3 years prior with the same husbandry techniques, why last year and not any other??? I know my fault, just saying.
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Jimmy Tintle

>>All in all, everything is the keepers fault if they don't reproduce or thrive. She reproduced 3 years prior with the same husbandry techniques, why last year and not any other??? I know my fault, just saying.
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>>Jimmy Tintle

I have no idea.......I wasn't blaming you.......When things go wrong here I blame myself after I blame the snakes.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>I guess next purchase needs to be a microscope to view viable sperm or not...

A microscope was an every day tool in my snake room, an essential part of my system. I expressed (squeezed out) a BB-sized sample of sperm from the female after every presumed copulation*. By doing so I was able to:
1) confirm insemination had in fact occurred
2) observe the health (motility) of the sperm (fluid-swimming critters vs some kinked, spastic sperm)
3) observe the sperm concentration
4) monitor declines in sperm counts for second clutches and as the season proceeded.

By following these procedures I was able to breed males (I'm talking mostly lampropeltis hondurensis, but pyros, too) to six or seven females, and getula with 3 or 4 females, with resultant high fertility. I was able to pull a male from circulation for the season if he failed to produce significant (or any) sperm counts, or if his counts declined later in the season.

*--fwiw, i put pairs together for very short periods of time--an hour or two. I'd introduce them when i got to the snake room to begin cage cleaning, record keeping and other routine duties, so i'd be around to monitor generally what was going on. If i heard a lot of tail slapping from a cage, for an extended time, i'd conclude the female was rejecting the male and remove the male, and try again in a few days. When i saw what appeared to be copulation, I'd wait til the pair separated, and check the sperm as described above, and sometimes, even if i'd seen no indication of activity between the pair, or if i'd left a pair together overnight, i'd check anyway. Sometimes I was surprised to discover copulation had occurred when i hadn't realized it. Many people have told me a single good insemination is all that's needed. I opted to get 3 or 4 inseminations at roughly 4 day intervals, thus spanning an 8 to 12 day period. Fertility was very satisfactory using these methods.

Those are indeed good things to practice and keep track of Terry. I've been meaning to get a microscope for that very purpose for quite some time now, but never have as of yet. One day it will happen though.

Excellent post!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thanks Terry....
One thing different (Other than using a microscope) over here is the fact that I have a pretty much 1:1 ratio of males to females. There are only three males that will have 2 or 3 mates...All of the others have only one.
So I just pair them up prior to the "pre ovulation shed" and separate for feeding every few days........If I hear tail whipping I keep them together.....

It is amazing to see the males waiting patiently for the female to ovulate and become receptive. It is like they are claiming them......I guess this is the "bonding" some speak about.....

Great informative post Terry.....I do appreciate the input.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>So I just pair them up prior to the "pre ovulation shed" and separate for feeding every few days........If I hear tail whipping I keep them together.....
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Jimmy Tintle

>>>>So I just pair them up prior to the "pre ovulation shed" and separate for feeding every few days........If I hear tail whipping I keep them together.....
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>>Jimmy Tintle

Meaning......I do not separate and wait a few days like Terry....I keep them together........even if I don't hear tail whipping......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

It didn't post the rest of my post, I may rewrite it later.
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Jimmy Tintle

....."I know that most males have no interest in food after emerging from brumation"....
ya know John, I see this all the time on forums but I can't think of a single male I have that is not interested in food after brumation....
I wonder why?
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>....."I know that most males have no interest in food after emerging from brumation"....
>> ya know John, I see this all the time on forums but I can't think of a single male I have that is not interested in food after brumation....
>>I wonder why?

I wonder why as well....With ALL of the getula, corns and ratsnakes I've bred most of the males were wiling to eat out of brumation......Some were stubborn and did not eat until after breeding but the majority did eat readily after brumation......

Now......the Mexicana, Ruthveni, Alterna and Pyros in previous years seemed to get a wiff of a females and forget about feeding. So this year I decided to warm the males up a couple weeks early to get some meals in them....It worked..I guess it was THAT that made it work.......Ever since the females have been warmed up and near them they are still eating...Different than in the past for me..........

So with your input.....I am still leaning towards the fact that a male's caloric intake is just as important as the female's in the period between warm up and breeding.........Hell Mark.....you ALWAYS have lots of fertile eggs and very few infertiles, right?.......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

ya know, it may be a good idea to bring them up at different schedules so the male is not "in shed" when he needs to be "at work".....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>ya know, it may be a good idea to bring them up at different schedules so the male is not "in shed" when he needs to be "at work".....

Another great point Mark...thanks
But it seems this year all the females are in shed around the same time (now) and the males have yet to shed at all....some are in the blue right now......maybe I should bring them up a little earlier next year.....We'll see....cuz if we get lots of fertile eggs I don't want to change too much ya know....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

My snakes have awoken at the same time for the last three years based on outside temps (Pinellas County, FL). Like yours, my males are super hungry after brumating. With the rat snakes, their appetite stopped as soon as breeding commenced. I'm guessing it will be the same with the kings (which I haven't bred since 2000).

So, 1) My snakes awake at the same time and with my rat snakes, it's never been an issue/interference with breeding; and, 2) my males eat like pigs after brumating, and I feed them well for when they go off feed.

My male alterna that I pictured in my post below ate several small meals after I brought them up, and they were in the same cage. I didn't see any breeding activity until after they both had shed.

Apparently there weren't any pheromones to distract him at first.
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Kent

1.1 Hypo (het lavender, striped) cornsnakes, 2010
1.2 Gray-banded kingsnakes, blairs phase, 2008
1.1 Oregon rubber boas, WC, 20??

>>My male alterna that I pictured in my post below ate several small meals after I brought them up, and they were in the same cage. I didn't see any breeding activity until after they both had shed.
>>
>>Apparently there weren't any pheromones to distract him at first.

Thanks Kent....Now I hope you get lots of fertile eggs from them......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Back in the nineties when I bred, I brought up the males and females at the exact same time. I never had a male not want to eat ever. I have heard of it, but in my experience, for me, it did not happen. I would just bring them all up from brumation, feed the heck outta them all, watch them breed, and see the results.

I think personally that the males would and do better with a decent brumation more than anything. Viable sperm is the key ingredient, eh????

I do not think feeding well would work against this, so to answer your specific question, I would think it would only help, and do not see any reason why it would not.

Unlike your results, I had a very good rate on fertile eggs with my speckled and California kings, and pueblan milks. I hope this year proves to be your best year.

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Genesis 1:1

>>Back in the nineties when I bred, I brought up the males and females at the exact same time. I never had a male not want to eat ever. I have heard of it, but in my experience, for me, it did not happen. I would just bring them all up from brumation, feed the heck outta them all, watch them breed, and see the results.
>>
>>I think personally that the males would and do better with a decent brumation more than anything. Viable sperm is the key ingredient, eh????
>>
>>I do not think feeding well would work against this, so to answer your specific question, I would think it would only help, and do not see any reason why it would not.
>>
>>Unlike your results, I had a very good rate on fertile eggs with my speckled and California kings, and pueblan milks. I hope this year proves to be your best year.
>>
>>
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>>Genesis 1:1

Thanks Billy.....
I don't want to sound facetious to any getula breeders (I have some myself) here but I think they are simple to keep and breed thus their massive popularity, eh?
Don't getula females become gravid just from being downwind of a male?......J/K......LOL

I had and still do have great results with common kings.....Out of the mexican and montane kings I have had my best luck with Thayeri and Alterna....it seems my worst luck has come from more montane species like Pyros, Ruthveni and Greeri.......

Is your opinion that it is the males fault when a female produces follicles/eggs then lays infertile eggs? I used to think this and do at times to this day.....the female did her part and the male didn't......LOL

Thanks for the kind words Billy....I hope this year turns out well.......The brumation was great this year.....and all the animals are in stellar health and feeding like crazy......Fingers crossed!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

" Is your opinion that it is the males fault when a female produces follicles/eggs then lays infertile eggs? I used to think this and do at times to this day.....the female did her part and the male didn't......LOL "

That scenario is always completely possible. The only way to fully come to that sort of conclusion would be the data of multiple breedings leading to infertile eggs, and perhaps a microscope.
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Genesis 1:1

>>" Is your opinion that it is the males fault when a female produces follicles/eggs then lays infertile eggs? I used to think this and do at times to this day.....the female did her part and the male didn't......LOL "
>>
>>That scenario is always completely possible. The only way to fully come to that sort of conclusion would be the data of multiple breedings leading to infertile eggs, and perhaps a microscope.

Yes Sir...you are absolutely right........We humans are so quick to lay blame, eh?.......LOL

Thanks Billy.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I had and still do have great results with common kings.....Out of the mexican and montane kings I have had my best luck with Thayeri and Alterna....it seems my worst luck has come from more montane species like Pyros, Ruthveni and Greeri....
I am thinking maybe in Texas you are not getting the brumation temperatures down low enough for these montane species. The may need to be brumated at the mid 40's F instead of the standard mid 50's F. Mine got brumated at the mid 40's F for the majority of their brumation (we had a very cold winter!) So I am hoping they will be plenty fertile; time will tell.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

>>I am thinking maybe in Texas you are not getting the brumation temperatures down low enough for these montane species. The may need to be brumated at the mid 40's F instead of the standard mid 50's F. Mine got brumated at the mid 40's F for the majority of their brumation (we had a very cold winter!) So I am hoping they will be plenty fertile; time will tell.

I hope every year that all the eggs laid are fertile...I have yet to have every female lay fertile clutches, but many do....

My brumation temps fluctuated from around 44F to 55F this year.....It usually hung around 50F........NEVER over 55F......
I don't brumate with Texas weather I brumate artificially with a window unit A/C in an insulated brumation chamber partitioned off in my snake room......
If I relied on Texas weather it would not have done the job....Unless I had native snakes or a bunch of common kings and cornsnakes.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

" I am thinking maybe in Texas you are not getting the brumation temperatures down low enough for these montane species. The may need to be brumated at the mid 40's F instead of the standard mid 50's F."

Very good point, and aligns with what I was saying about making sure that the snakes go thru an excellent brumation.
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Genesis 1:1

Wow Billy, is that an adult? I am not a big fan of Splendida but that thing is beautiful!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
J Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Thanks man! Yeah, he is a small adult at the moment.
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Genesis 1:1

"Back in the day" there were at least a couple of breeders who checked for viable sperm by looking at it under a microscope. If I recall correctly, there were a few types of snakes that were more viable later in the year, rather than shortly after cooling.

These "tests" weren't done with your "food intake" idea in mind, but rather to determine the timing to place males and females together for the best chance of fertile breeding.

Tim

>>"Back in the day" there were at least a couple of breeders who checked for viable sperm by looking at it under a microscope. If I recall correctly, there were a few types of snakes that were more viable later in the year, rather than shortly after cooling.
>>
>>These "tests" weren't done with your "food intake" idea in mind, but rather to determine the timing to place males and females together for the best chance of fertile breeding.
>>
>>Tim

Thanks Tim....
Back in the 90s I had some buddies that used microscopes too.....

I wonder if those "tests" were on males that did not eat well after brumation then later ate great after breeding once?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hi John,

Back when I cooled my kings I would sometimes have that problem with my NJ males. They would come out and have no interest in food. In some years, I had crummy fertility with them. My GAs have always eaten like pigs, they never fast, and I have only rarely had a fertility problem with a clutch from them.

Since I knocked off the forced cooling, my kings eat year round and infertility is not an issue at all. I have to be a bit more aware when the girls are producing follicles, as it happens at different times now, but when the females start swelling, the boys go in and get the job done.

Will

>>Hi John,
>>
>>Back when I cooled my kings I would sometimes have that problem with my NJ males. They would come out and have no interest in food. In some years, I had crummy fertility with them. My GAs have always eaten like pigs, they never fast, and I have only rarely had a fertility problem with a clutch from them.
>>
>>Since I knocked off the forced cooling, my kings eat year round and infertility is not an issue at all. I have to be a bit more aware when the girls are producing follicles, as it happens at different times now, but when the females start swelling, the boys go in and get the job done.
>>
>>Will

Thanks for your input Will......
I have yet to do the "non cooling" method as I think it works well with getula but not Mexicana, Alterna, Zonata, Pyromelana and Ruthveni........Maybe one year I will try it with some.....but it is something that I would have to work with and perfect on my own.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

How warm are you keeping your males prior to breeding? I don't have much experience with mexicana-complex animals, per se, but I do have quite a bit with their triangulum cousins. It seems that if the males are allowed to get too warm prior to breeding, the viability of their sperm is greatly reduced. I've heard similar observations from Mitch Mulks, Dell Despain, Jeff Hardwick, Bob Applegate, Bob Hansen, Matt Ingrasci, and a whole herd of other guys, too.

As for the food = sperm hypothesis, I think you're onto something. Certainly, an animal with good body condition can produce a lot more and stronger gametes. There's little question there and it's been well demonstrated in females (I can provide references, if you want). Let us know how this season turns out, please!

-Cole

Thanks for your input Cole.......
I keep my males between 75F and 80F after brumation.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Here on the West coast, we used to find adult male Cal kings under boards earlier in the year than females. The males were warming up in prep for breeding. Yes, warming up.

Sperm that is too cold for too long is not so good. Neither is too warm for too long. Snake knows best what temp is right and for how long.

One more example. One guy bred two zonata - he lives really close to zonata habitat. Weather is similar. No fertility problems. I breed them where I live (much warmer overall), and not so good. Male had same weight, etc. I don't think it is food. I doubt your males are underfed, I've seen your pics, lol.

One breeder I know used to slim his males down.. he claims fertility was better with thinner males.
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Mark

>>Here on the West coast, we used to find adult male Cal kings under boards earlier in the year than females. The males were warming up in prep for breeding. Yes, warming up.
>>
>>Sperm that is too cold for too long is not so good. Neither is too warm for too long. Snake knows best what temp is right and for how long.
>>
>>One more example. One guy bred two zonata - he lives really close to zonata habitat. Weather is similar. No fertility problems. I breed them where I live (much warmer overall), and not so good. Male had same weight, etc. I don't think it is food. I doubt your males are underfed, I've seen your pics, lol.
>>
>>One breeder I know used to slim his males down.. he claims fertility was better with thinner males.
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>>Mark

Interesting thinking.....I've heard thinner males breed better as in more active, but I've never heard that thinner males produced more viable sperm........

Thanks Mark for that insight.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...