Reptile & Amphibian Forums

From what Ive been reading the bullsnake doesnt exist.What is called a "bullsnake" is just a subspecies of gophersnake.
Or in other words there are just pituophis species and subspecies
Is this how it works?

Im thinking that most people like myself always thought that there were gophersnakes and then there were bullsnakes.

www.kingsnake.com/pituophis/species.html
Common Name:
Bullsnake

Scientific Name:
Pituophis catenifer sayi

what, we don't exist?!? Tell us that at feeding time! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

lol,lol ya.......

I read this article.
http://www.humboldtherps.com/pituophis.html

HumboldtHerps.com:
...And last but not least, is the Bullsnake (P. c. sayi), currently recognized as a sub-
species of the Pacific Gopher.

So instead of having two bull snakes and five Pacific gopher snakes I have no bull snakes and 7 Pacifics...hmmmm...

We are so embarrassed ...we thought we were mighty bull snakes, not just some hippy snake from the Left Coast...

Taxonomy is very confusing even amongst the experts. Thanks for posting the most interesting link!

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

That article is incorrect.

The species Pituophis catenifer is commonly known as the Gopher Snake. As it has such a broad range, from Canada to Mexico and California to Texas and Indiana, it is generally broken down into a number of subspecies to better describe its geographic variability. Among these subspecies is Pituophis catenifer sayi, commonly referred to as the Bull Snake. Another subspecies, Pituophis catenifer catenifer, is often called the Pacific Gopher Snake.

In short, the Bull Snake is a subspecies of the Gopher Snake species, as is the Pacific Gopher Snake. The Bull Snake is NOT a subspecies of the Pacific Gopher Snake.

-Cole

There is no rule that says that common names need to be anchored to the species or subspecies level.

There is a bullsnake and it's also a gopher snake in the same sense that corn snakes are rat snakes.

IMO... bulls and gophers are just western terms...

Nope... According to Connant's book, Alan Tennant's book, Kenneth Kelly's book, Mara's book and from other sources... here is the current lowdown- understanding that there is a move to split the genus up even further by moving the bullsnake BACK to species status:
First understand that when Connant's book first came out ALL of these were subspecies of Pituophis melanoleucus and the entire genus was considered to be monotypic....

Pituophis melanoleucus melanoleucus- northern pine
lodingi- black pine
mugitus- Flordia or Southern Pine

P. ruthveni- Louisiana Pine Snake

P. deppei deppei- Chihuan Pine

P. d. jani- Mexican Pine

P. lineaticollis lineaticollis - Plateau Pine

P. l. gibsoni- Gibson's Pine

P. c. coronalis- Coronado Island Gopher

P. c. bimeris- Baja Cali Gopher

P. c. fulginatus- St,. Martin Island Gopher

P. c. insluanus- Cedros Island Gopher

P. c. vertebralis- San Lucan Gopher

(The above sub-species could have been changed to another species- as they have been listed as subs of melanoleucus as well)

P. catenifer catenifer- Pacific Gopher

P. c. sayi- THE BULLSNAKE (though this could be made its own species as it has the WIDEST range of the genus)

P. c. affinis- Sonorian Gopher

P. c. annectens- San Diego Gopher

P. c. deserticola- Great Basin Gopher

P. c. pumilus- Santa Cruz Gopher

Ok thats it for now, and hope this helps break the confusion or add to it but this is as current as I believe the taxi's are at right now.
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BULLS: Pr normal (KS&TX), Pr Northern (M Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada & F Minn), Pr Kankakee Co, Ill, CORNS: Pr Okeetee, SC, FOXES: Pr Western, KINGS: F Black Eastern (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, Pr. Dekalb Co. AL, Pr. NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.), Pr."Goini", Franklin Co. Fla, Pr. Costal Banded Cal (M Hypo & F normal) Pr Speckled, Harris Co. TX, MILKS: F Eastern, Charlotte, NC area, PINES: Pr Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), Pr Southern (F light phase & M- Aiken, SC), PYTHONS: Pr normal Ball, RATS: Pr Black, Henderson Co. NC, F Western Green,(Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ), OTHERS: 10 Tarantulas, 145 Orchid plants, 30 assorted tropical plants and African violets, 3 Freshwater Planted Aquariums with West African Dwarf and Discus Cichlids and 2 condo-porch gardens with Bonsai, Roses and more.

The reason that the proposal to elevate sayi to species status has failed so miserably is that it's not distinct from other forms of catenifer. In short, it's simply not a distict species. There's a broad intergrade zone where sayi grades into affinis in TX, NM, etc. The same thing happens where sayi grades into deserticola.

-Cole

Big Horn County, MT

Stillwater County, MT

your right on that one!
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BULLS: Pr normal (KS&TX), Pr Northern (M Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada & F Minn), Pr Kankakee Co, Ill, CORNS: Pr Okeetee, SC, FOXES: Pr Western, KINGS: F Black Eastern (L.g.nigra) Todd Co. KY, Pr. Dekalb Co. AL, Pr. NC Eastern Chains (M from Union Co. & F from Mecklenburg Co.), Pr."Goini", Franklin Co. Fla, Pr. Costal Banded Cal (M Hypo & F normal) Pr Speckled, Harris Co. TX, MILKS: F Eastern, Charlotte, NC area, PINES: Pr Louisiana (pure descendants of Terry Vandeventer stock), Pr Southern (F light phase & M- Aiken, SC), PYTHONS: Pr normal Ball, RATS: Pr Black, Henderson Co. NC, F Western Green,(Mt. Hopkins, Cochise Co. AZ), OTHERS: 10 Tarantulas, 145 Orchid plants, 30 assorted tropical plants and African violets, 3 Freshwater Planted Aquariums with West African Dwarf and Discus Cichlids and 2 condo-porch gardens with Bonsai, Roses and more.

Thanks I appreciate everyone clearing that up.Ive been sick so havent been on for awhile.Really nasty cold so sitting there in a vegetative state, drooling on myself.

I know that the whole cornsnake,ratsnake thing was kinda confusing too.