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I read a post on another web site which is dedicated to corns that the Ultramel gene was a result of breeding a Corn snake with a Gray Rat. This is the first I have ever heard of this, so I'm wondering if anyone else here has ever heard that?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Oh yes!, that is indeed the deal on those. I have read LOTS of different threads regarding those, including many personal email quotes directly from the "horses mouth". Mike Shiver, and his partner Mike Falcon originated those from using grey rat (White Oak phase) influence.

Don Soderberg, KJ, and many others know this to be true as well.

I will send you some VERY interesting reads on this..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Yeah, I agree with Mr. Mong 100%. There's been a whole lotta talk and if you look around hard enough you can find some detailed discussions online.

Although it's not often talked about, Ultras are hybrids.

Tim

I didn't know that! I knew you guys would have the answers here, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>I read a post on another web site which is dedicated to corns that the Ultramel gene was a result of breeding a Corn snake with a Gray Rat. This is the first I have ever heard of this, so I'm wondering if anyone else here has ever heard that?
>>-----
>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> Jorge Sierra
>>
>>My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

yep, read the history on the ultramels. The originators said the first ones they produced were from a wild caught female corn bred to a gray rat. They also stated that they bred her to pure corns. Did they keep the offspring separated? Did everyone who got the early ones know for sure which lineage theirs were from?
I have read and have been involved in quite a few discussions and arguments concerning ultramels and the discussion will always bring division among hobbyists.
..hard to know 100% which original pairings they ALL came from.
To some, any tainted history is too much and to others, if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck...its a duck.
I am kind of surprised at a few who condemn any mixes or hybrids as the scourge of the earth but seem to find it easy to ignore the history of the ultra/ultramels
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)

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>>>>I read a post on another web site which is dedicated to corns that the Ultramel gene was a result of breeding a Corn snake with a Gray Rat. This is the first I have ever heard of this, so I'm wondering if anyone else here has ever heard that?
>>>>-----
>>>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>>>> Jorge Sierra
>>>>
>>>>My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com
>>
>>
>>yep, read the history on the ultramels. The originators said the first ones they produced were from a wild caught female corn bred to a gray rat. They also stated that they bred her to pure corns. Did they keep the offspring separated? Did everyone who got the early ones know for sure which lineage theirs were from?
>>I have read and have been involved in quite a few discussions and arguments concerning ultramels and the discussion will always bring division among hobbyists.
>>..hard to know 100% which original pairings they ALL came from.
>>To some, any tainted history is too much and to others, if it walks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck...its a duck.
>>I am kind of surprised at a few who condemn any mixes or hybrids as the scourge of the earth but seem to find it easy to ignore the history of the ultra/ultramels
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>>Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
>>"Resistance is futile"
>>Jimmy Johnson
>>(Draybar)
>>
>>
>>_____

Yeah Some very respected breeders didnt disclose even though they new they were hybrids, and many corn collectors purchased the grey oaks hybrids (ultramels) without a clue of the real genetics involved, iv seen those same breeders preach Pure is best and how sad it is that hybrids are everywhere these days, when infact it is some of those so called respected breeders that leak them in.
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Stinky

>>I am kind of surprised at a few who condemn any mixes or >>hybrids as the scourge of the earth but seem to find it easy >>to ignore the history of the ultra/ultramels

I got into a dustup several months ago regarding this nonsense. I don't see what the big deal is provided you're honest when selling hybrids. I've been saying all along that purity is hard to come by nowadays, especially with wild caught snakes. Breeding hybrids is slowly catching on and it's not going to go away. Those 'so-called' purists need to accept things as they are.

"I don't see what the big deal is provided you're honest when selling hybrids."

The problem is that people are selling hybrids as "pure" snakes. There have been a number of pics posted in the last few months on these forums of people who bought something that clearly wasn't what the seller claimed it was. So the "big deal" is that people aren't honest. A lot of people don't like hybrids and would not knowingly buy one. So some sellers rely on trickery.

"I've been saying all along that purity is hard to come by nowadays, especially with wild caught snakes."

So are you saying that finding a "pure" wild caught snake is hard?

"Breeding hybrids is slowly catching on and it's not going to go away."

I'm not so sure about the "slowly catching on" part. I think on average snakes marketed as pure forms dominate the market. I think it would be hard to prove if hybrids are gaining or losing market share. I've seen a number of hybrids selling for dirt cheap, which would indicate the demand for them is low.

I do agree that it's not going to go away - at least with Corn Snakes.

"Those 'so-called' purists need to accept things as they are."

I think many of them do. But if you're implying that purists should "throw in the towel" on breeding snakes that resemble their natural counterparts, then I don't see that happening. A lot of people I know regard "imperial" "jungle" "turbo" and other hybrids as junk snakes and I don't see them ever changing their minds on this.

Tim

"The problem is that people are selling hybrids as "pure" snakes. There have been a number of pics posted in the last few months on these forums of people who bought something that clearly wasn't what the seller claimed it was. So the "big deal" is that people aren't honest. A lot of people don't like hybrids and would not knowingly buy one. So some sellers rely on trickery".

Well that's just flat out wrong to do, so I agree with you on that.

"So are you saying that finding a "pure" wild caught snake is hard"?.

No, I'm not saying it's hard, what i'm saying is you don't know what you're getting with wild caught and that there's a good possibility your wild caught snake could have other genes in it depending on how far back you go in the snakes family tree. What constitutes a pure cornsnake? How many generations does one have to go back to say this is a pure anything?

"I'm not so sure about the "slowly catching on" part. I think on average snakes marketed as pure forms dominate the market. I think it would be hard to prove if hybrids are gaining or losing market share. I've seen a number of hybrids selling for dirt cheap, which would indicate the demand for them is low".

It seems too me everytime I go to a reptile show I see more and more hybrids. Without mentioning any names, I see A LOT of big name breeders doing it as well.

"I think many of them do. But if you're implying that purists should "throw in the towel" on breeding snakes that resemble their natural counterparts, then I don't see that happening. A lot of people I know regard "imperial" "jungle" "turbo" and other hybrids as junk snakes and I don't see them ever changing their minds on this".

I'm not implying purists should throw in the towel, just accept it because it's not going away.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not celebrating hybrids nor am I trying to start an argument. I fully understand how this can upset some folks and I respect their feelings. I guess I'm just one of the few that happens to like hybrids.

Caveat emptor

"Caveat emptor"

Absolutely Jim,....simple as that.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Not only do I agree with all those points, another bare-bones reality for the other poster is that it doesn't matter one tiny bit how honestly a cross or hybrid is originally sold as, because just as soon as it leaves the vendors table, the majority of all their offspring, and their offspring, and THEIR offspring's offspring will be sold AND bred to as what they likely best represent,....simple as that!...this is the reality of the true dynamics of how the hobby ACTUALLY works, not how it would be liked to work.

I see this every single day now, and have for many years. And I'm not talking about only corns either....LOTS of kings, milks, ratsnakes, etc...

Now someone here ask me how many posts and ads I have seen over the years that proves exactly what I am saying here.....ANYONE!!

See, if nobody did this, it wouldn't be an issue anyway, but since many DO, it IS!..LOL!

Also, I love to hear all the same pseudo "justifications" they always use by always saying things like..."so what is really pure?", or "how do YOU know your snake is pure anyway?".

Or they say "many so-called "pure" snakes that are captured in the wild are intergrades to different degrees, so what's the difference if I make a bunch of mutt crosses to be dispersed into the hobby??, what's the difference?. So this in turn makes them feel better about doing it on absolute PURPOSE because there are already many questionable snakes out there, so what's wrong with perpetuating countless thousands more and muddying up the already brown water in the hobby?.

Yes, the one undisputable factor will ALWAYS be......because you KNOWINGLY bred two very different types on purpose, and for the offspring to go out and do the very same thing you just did!, well, many anyway, and the other portion are people that actually BUY these very same snakes "thinking" they are getting something else entirely.

Then, there are the people that would know an authentic subspecies of something if it bit them right on the nose, and THAT TOO is another reason they get created too. There is simply no end to it.....EVER!, and this snowball only gets much larger every single breeding year.

One last thought for everyone. Would you think that any cross you ever produced and dispersed into the hobby mainstream would ONLY ever be bred to the exact same genetic cross that the original animals consisted of?......of course not!, all those can never be taken back once they leave the table, so all their countless offspring end up for the most part being bred to whatever they "seem" to best represent.

This is what will never go away.

Oh, here's a little something else too. The term "pure" is a totally relative term anyway. I like to refer to different subspecies and their phenotypes as being "genuine", or "authentic" as this is much more accurate. Any animal that evolves over time, and has had ranges change over countless mellenia realy isn't something "pure" like a virgin chemical would be. Animals are naturally composites of genes that tend to eventually make up a basic standard phenotype in any given geographic area, hence the better term "genuine" or "authentic". Not necessarily pure by literal definition.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

All very good points Doug. So now let me ask you this question. I'll just stick with corn snakes for now. What do you think of SMR, Serpenco, VMS Herps, Cornutopia, (just to name a few) for selling ultra's with no mention of them being hybrids? I never once read on their websites that they are hybrids. Are they unscrupulous dealers too?

>>All very good points Doug. So now let me ask you this question. I'll just stick with corn snakes for now. What do you think of SMR, Serpenco, VMS Herps, Cornutopia, (just to name a few) for selling ultra's with no mention of them being hybrids? I never once read on their websites that they are hybrids. Are they unscrupulous dealers too?

And neither did anyone else unless they new beforhand what they were.

Im all for hybrids but the non disclosure of hybrids by some breeders is really bad form.
if your creating hybrids then disclose the fact.

its funny that their are absolutely loads of posts that mention people that hybridize and breed Pure aswell are not really trusted as you dont really know what you will get, ie pure or not, and its best to go to a well known trusted breeder, hmmm really ?.

i see nothing but the truth from the well know hybridizers, at least they disclose what they are doing and whats in the snakes they sell.

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Stinky

Quote: All very good points Doug. So now let me ask you this question. I'll just stick with corn snakes for now. What do you think of SMR, Serpenco, VMS Herps, Cornutopia, (just to name a few) for selling ultra's with no mention of them being hybrids? I never once read on their websites that they are hybrids. Are they unscrupulous dealers too?

I would ask the very same question you just did. I have NO excuse, but I'll give you a little history before I head off to add that information to my web site.

Back when the originator of the Ultras came forward and said they were products of gray rat x corns, those that were already making good $ on them, denounced the guy as a fraud. That he was bitter about getting out of the corn snake hobby and was firing a parting salvo to discredit a new and popular corn morph. In so much as I had already seen hybrid markers in them, I was glad he admitted it, but when he saw the negative reaction to it, he said he had also bred a pure snow corn to the patriarchal mutant (stating that he bred the mutant to both a snow corn and a gray snow). This sparked people to declare that theirs were pure cuz they saw no markers. Hence, I actually did put on my web site that they were GRAY RAT SNAKE / CORN HYBRIDS. Wow, was that unpopular. Not only did I get hate email from colleagues, but people stopped buying them from me, stating that mine were hybrids and everyone else's were pure corns. Well, I am ashamed to admit that I took it off my site. Not totally because I didn't want to lose sales cuz folks thought I had the only Ultra types that were not pure corns, but because as they say in the courtroom we have only the word of the originator that they are not pure corns, and in the absence of DNA evidence, the validity of the claims in either direction were unsubstantiated. Looking back, I should have ignored my impulsive reaction to being punished for being the only one to publish the testimony of the original breeder. Even though I believe that person because of the hybrid markers seen in virtually every Ultra type I've ever seen, I cannot say for sure they are hybrids, but I owe it to my customers to at least make them aware of that potentiality. Hence, because of your post, I will add that information to my web site tomorrow.

This is not "damage control". It would be much easier to ignore this thread and not mention it, since I would be in good company (virtually all other corn snake breeders). Not that anyone knows for sure if they are pure corns, but potential buyers should be made aware that there is controversy in this realm. BTW, I don't think you'll find a single forum posting of mine where I did not loudly remind readers that the originator of the morph declared that they were hybrids. If you check archives of Ultra postings in which I was involved on this site and others, you'll see that when the subject was brought to my attention, I chimed in. You are correct in saying that the absence of that information on sites that sell them is suspicious. I cannot prove that they are hybrids for sure, but I will add to my site that the originator said he used Gray Rat Snakes in the discover and/or promotion of this mutation.

Don
SMR
South Mountain Reptiles

One last thing that I forgot to mention. If someone can make something so exciting by crossing a grey rat to a corn snake that made what is now called the ultra/ultramel, then I'm all for it. The ultra and amel gene sharing the same locus. Who would have ever guessed an end result of that? Look at all the beautiful corn snake morphs that were made from the ultra.

anyone mention Frosted in thsi thread?...
same mix/ cross....same guys I think.....
been done long ago...
I hate the attitude of ultramels...and I have just 6 corns left....2 Dbl Het str Lav, a lav from UM line an Ultra lav and an ultramel lav...oh, a snopal...

...so they are probably going out the door soon also...

....good luck....

""Pet Corn" ....not wild type...just like people use "Pet Hondo" due to them being so mixed up also...

....?????? right SB ??....
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........JY

Here is just one of manya post from Joe Pierce on the subject........

(Joe Pierce from cornsnake.com forum) 9/17/06

The possibility that the Ultra gene may have came from Gray Rats came from another thread called Borrowing Morphs. There was obviously some Gray Rat X Ultra breeding somewhere in the beginnings of the Ultras history, but did it come after or before the Ultra gene was produced in Corns. We do know that Graysnows and some lines of Frosted Corns came from the Graysnow line. The Ultra gene has popped up in known Gray X Corn Hybrid lines that tie in to the Frosteds, so there is little doubt that this combo was done early on. Then there is always the this line from Mike Falcon, “I bred them to Gray Rats and Corns.”

The carrier of the Ultra Gene is reported to be a wild caught Corn, that may have had some hybrid blood in it done the natural way. Did this wild caught get produced in the wild, and when bred to a Graysnow produced the very first Ultramels? OR did the first breeding of a Gray Rat X Amel Corn produced the first Ultramels? I wonder if it took them 4 years to produce the first Ultramel, or did they get a hit the first year?

The idea intrigued me and when I did a few searches I found out that the White Oak phase of the Gray Rats is believed to be a hypomelanistic phase of the Gray Rats by many. I happened across this male wild caught White Oak Gray Rat. Is this guy homo for Ultra or are some of the White Oaks homo for Ultra? I don’t really know, but this guy looks suspiciously like a hypo.

I plan on breeding him to an Amel Female next year and just see if by the off chance I can bust the Three Stooges. I may just get some normal looking Gray/Corn hybrids, we will see.

I got this email from Mike Falcon yesterday. I wrote him a pretty long email and ask quite a few questions, but only one I was looking to get answered is if the Gray Rat they used was a White Oak, and what a surprise, it was. I am still not completely clear about what happened, but there is the Gray Rat White Oak Phase somewhere in the beginnings of the Ultra Line. He always words it in a way that a pure Corn Line could still have been created from the Female that carried the “Ultra” gene. Mike has been consistant that the Ultra carrier was a female. I wonder how many years of production he got out of her. I guess that will be my next question.

Quote:
The grey rat was a white oak that was bred to a snow corn. The babies were
bred together. Then some of those were bred to the ultra hypo from what I
recall. That was many years ago. I bred the grey rat to the snow corn and
split the babies with Andy Barr. The snake that produce the ultras was a
female. The amel could have come from the snow. Sorry seams like you have
try to keep up with the genetics, I was given most of my group from Shiver.
The were all non feeders that I got going and raised up.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

"Look at all the beautiful corn snake morphs that were made from the ultra"

Now anyone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but if these were made from a hypomelanistic grey rat gene(white Oak phase x corn), they arent actually cornsnakes, even though they now "look" phenotypically basically the same.

This is also very similar to having a completely restored genuine vintage '69 Hemi Road Runner as opposed to having some look-alike '69 Satellite with the same body style that originally had a factory 318 for a motor, then the aftermarket emblems were stuck after being painted on and there you have it!. The Satellite "looks" exactly like a real Road Runner does, but the fact is, it will never BE a real Road Runner, it just looks like one to the naked eye.

Same thing would apply to all the Sinaloan that got the amel gene from the nelsoni and are being called albino "Sinaloans" in the market....there is NO SUCH THING!. These aren't Sinaloan's either, their counterfeit intergrades that people want to be accepted as genuine Sinaloans for resale because they "look" nice. These are passed off as genuine Sinaloans to people in the hobby that don't know any better, and believe me, there are countless of thousands of people that don't know the actual differences between the two subspecies. I could go on and on with many more, but the same point would apply to all of these man-made crosses,...they just aren't what most think they are at all.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

So basically, what you're saying is anyone with an ultra anything in the corn snake world has a hybrid. Correct?

That's pretty heavy duty considering all the folks that have corn snakes with the ultra gene. I hope they're not purists, because that would really dull their day.

You never responded to my question regarding SMR, VMS, Cornutopia or Serpenco. What do you think of their ethics?

BTW - Nice roadrunner

It's not really a matter of debate. If it's an ultra, it's a hybrid.

If it's a creamsicle, its a hybrid.

The breeders you mentioned also breed creamsicles. I think most of them are astute enough to know that both types of snakes are not "pure" and therefore they are not purists.

Earlier you said "Well that's just flat out wrong to do, so I agree with you on that." When it comes to selling hybrids as pure.

It sounds like you want Doug to say that the breeders you mentioned are doing the wrong thing. In actuality it's what you believe based on your earlier comment.

So what's up with the debate? It appears everyone agrees.

The "hybrid breeders philosophy" of it being OK if everyone is honest, holds no water, because by your own research you've shown that some hybrid breeders aren't honest about what they sell.

Tim

Huh? My original point was that hybrids are not the evil some in this forum have suggested. That a lot of big name breeders are doing it and that a lot of new exciting things have come from it and people should accept them because they're not going away.

People being dishonest is another issue. It's not just people that are selling hybrids that are dishonest.

I think you're missing your own points. What you do is present your opinion as if it's a fact in hopes to sway people to thinking hybrids are well-accepted.

Yes, big breeders do breed them, but if they sold well, they'd be breeding more of them. But they're not. I been to the largest reptile shows. I've been going for more than 20 years. Snakes marketed as hybrids make up less than 5% of the animals represented as shows. The number hasn't risen. Jungle Corns were "invented" a quarter century ago. They are not as popular as Okeetee Corn Snakes or Black & White Cal Kings. Why? Because hybrids aren't generally well-liked.

The information you've posted is the same nonsense that anyone who's been visiting these forums for years has seen:

1. Trying to cast doubt on the "purity" of any snake, therefore they all must be hybrids. You're "having a hard time finding a pure wild-caught" is especially lacking in knowledge since all captive snakes come from wild-caught ancestors. Since captive snakes have been crossed, hybridized, and intergraded over the years, then it would only make sense that it would be harder to find a "pure" captive bred snake than a pure wild one.

2. You also do the "big breeders are doing it, so it must be OK" line. Most people are aware that just because somebody does something doesn't make it OK. By your own admission you stated that mis-representing hybrids as pure is "flat out wrong." Then you listed "big breeders" that are doing it. From your own "logic" what those breeders are doing is dishonest. If this is the case, you can't use them as "proof" that breeding hybrids is OK.

3. And the whole "define pure" thing is another hybrid breeders "trick."

4. As well as saying that they're "catching on" even through you can't provide any evidence to back it up. The way I see it snakes marketed as hybrids have a very small market share.

5. As DMong pointed out "Look at all the beautiful corn snake morphs that were made from the ultra." Is incorrect. Those aren't Corn Snake morphs - they're hybrids. And beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I really don't see anything special about the looks of ultramels.

6. And then you try to do the "us against them" sort of thing by referring to breeders as "purists" even though you don't have a definition for "pure."

Dude, these are the same dishonest tactics the readers on this forum have been seing for years. No one "buys into" it. A fair number of people who buy hybrids are tricked into doing so.

If you want to produce them, that's fine. But be honest about it, rather than trying to promote the untrue or unprovable ideas that hybrid breeders have been pimping for years.

Tim

Very well said.
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Genesis 1:1

while doug is very knowledgeable of snake ailments, husbandry concerns, and NA colubrid holotypes; he is very limited in the breadth of his scope.

he and a few others here like to stand on their soapboxes to give a litany of complaints about things that are occurring, or have continued to occur, in our hobby. he also likes to throw around words that would make a 1930's german socialist squeal with delight.

you will not change his mind about anything; don't waste you energy trying. so if he starts in on anything, other than the three aforementioned areas that he is excellent in, take it with a grain of salt.

this, of course, is just the two cents of a year long forum lurker.

I hear you. I've never seen such anger when it comes to hybrids.
All I can say is I think hybrids are pretty cool and we'll be seeing more down the road.

"he and a few others here like to stand on their soapboxes to give a litany of complaints about things that are occurring, or have continued to occur, in our hobby"

Yes, except for one typo there. Replace the word "complaints" with "facts" and it would be very accurate.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

fair enough.

just glad the typo wasn't soapboxes

>>My original point was that hybrids are not the evil some in this forum have suggested. That a lot of big name breeders are doing it and that a lot of new exciting things have come from it and people should accept them because they're not going away.

>>People being dishonest is another issue. It's not just people that are selling hybrids that are dishonest.

I totally agree with you and hybrids whether people like it or not are definitely catching on. Just be careful when talking about hybrids on a corn snake forum because you're gonna get some hostility. Your response would have been more readily accepted if it were on the hybrid forum.

Yes, it is very typical for people to attempt to twist things around and fabricate many pseudo-justifications in order to best fit any given agenda they may have for the sake of any given topic they don't agree with or understand. This issue is certainly no different as we both already know.

And when someone attempts to give a very precise and detailed explanation of facts, or how and why certain things come about in the hobby, then they like to call it ..."soap boxing"..LMAO!!

Yes, imagine that!............
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

the facts are great doug. i think you should be commended for and encouraged to continue documenting the evolution of our hobby.

the "soap-boxing" as you put it has more to do with your objection of certain avenues taken by some in the trade, disgust over the blinding ignorance of many of the new herpers, and sometimes just with the general direction things are going.

i really do appreciate all the information that you take the time to give. i've directly linked to advice you've given here in several emails and i would have lost a couple of corns if i hadn't come across advice you've given in the past.

i hope you never get discouraged enough to keep you from disseminating information.

I can always count on Doug and others here to have the answers to just about any snake question.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

"So basically, what you're saying is anyone with an ultra anything in the corn snake world has a hybrid. Correct?

Correct!, that is EXACTLY what I am saying.

And in regards to the companies you mentioned, it really doesn't matter what I think about it. I am a realist and am just pointing out the bare-bones facts here about it. I also know the names of the people that started the Ultras and Uultramels.

As far as the "acceptance" goes as you mentioned earlier......is there much of a choice that the hobby has as a whole???...they are absolutely EVERYWHERE, and in almost EVERYTHING now just like you mentioned earlier....right??

The simple fact is that the more numbers there are of something out in the market, the more it casually and generally IS accepted into the public as the way things are and gets sort of "swept under the carpet" so to speak as simply......."oh well, they are what they are".....it's all good..LOL!.

Just one other example for you of countless MANY.......Most ALL of the so-called albino "Eastern kings" are getula x nigra(Eastern Black kingsnake), but you never see those sold as intergrades either, only as genuine Easterns. In the herp hobby, it seems that if something can't be literally PROVEN in the court of law, then how would anybody be able to say it ISN'T what it is "supposed" to be?..LOL!....again!, this is the bare-bones facts and reality of how this hobby "ACTUALLY" works and what many crosser/hybridizers count on, and know that will happen ANYWAY!. And certainly the average "joe" in this snake hobby couldn't POSSIBLY know all this stuff without many dedicated years of experience and research, meristic study, and countless years of knowing exactly what many types of genuine subspecies actually are SUPPOSED to look like naturally in the first place.

It just so happens that I have been doing just that for almost 43 years now, and I have history's saved of many of the morphs of different types of snakes in this hobby from many different sources compiled. This along with always corresponding with other knowledgeable snake friends around the country helps with verifying many things too.

There is also a very little known about locality-specific amel Mexican milksnake(L.t.annulata) in the hobby that a few people have that I know. And this morph is as genuine as the day is long....FOR NOW! that is. Because as those are gradually introduced into the hobby, as their price goes down and become more available, I am quite sure they too will be crossed into other known subspecies morphs that have already been around for years.....just like EVERYTHING else has....just give it time is all!......can you say "extreme" hypo annulata?...LOL!..

OOPS!, don't want to give anybody any bright ideas right off the bat!..HAHAHAA!!!

Anyway, this is the reality of how this hobby REALLY works!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Wow if what you're saying is true then it's really a hybrid world out there, isn't it? LOL

Hardly.........

But they are an un-known factor to many folks in all sorts of things in the hobby they shouldn't be in...if that's what you meant.

Sort of like opening a box of cereal, and find out there are weevles in it.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

>>>>I am kind of surprised at a few who condemn any mixes or >>hybrids as the scourge of the earth but seem to find it easy >>to ignore the history of the ultra/ultramels
>>
>>I got into a dustup several months ago regarding this nonsense. I don't see what the big deal is provided you're honest when selling hybrids. I've been saying all along that purity is hard to come by nowadays, especially with wild caught snakes. Breeding hybrids is slowly catching on and it's not going to go away. Those 'so-called' purists need to accept things as they are.

I breed creamsicles and other emoryi/corn crosses and love 'em.
I am also one that doesn't see a problem with hybrids as long as everyone knows exactly what they are.
There are some that hate them...I understand. That is their right. I will not say anything negative about anyone who wants to stay as far away from hybrids as possible but there have been a few who, as I stated above, have condemned any form of hybrid, intergrade, mix or whatever as pure evil but really don't seem to want to believe the fact that the originators stated the use of gray rat.
I do think, however, that the number of "pure" corns being bred, in comparison to the number of hybrids, is so overwhelming that it just won't make the impact some believe.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes...No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)

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Excellent post Jimmy and I agree with you 100%.

Maintaining pedigrees on any animal requires detailed record keeping over a long period of time. It's done with dogs, cats, horses, and probably some more I am not aware of. ACR is an attempt to incorporate the process into the corn snake breeding world. Unfortunately, I do not think we will ever see the strict adherence to registering animals and tracing ancestry. On the other hand if someone is happy with a mixed breed, be it a dog, snake, or anything else, good for them and the animal. BTW Doug, with gas prices the way they are today I think I would prefer a hybrid to that Plymouth whether it has a Hemi or a 318! LOL

I hear ya Jim!

It would pass everything but a gas station!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Let's say someone decided to breed an ultramel lavender motley/stripe to an opal stripe. They would produce ultramel lavender stripes and motley/stripes, and opal stripes and motley/stripes....

Now, what do you think they are going to sell the opal stripes and motley/stripes as??

How much do you want to bet they are not marked as opal stripe corn x grey rat.

That's one of the scary things about ultramel projects. All of the non ultra offspring are sold as pure.

Just a thought

>>Those 'so-called' purists need to accept things as they are.

I'm a purist, not a "so-called purist". I accept the fact that I can't impose my will on others. I don't accept the idea I shouldn't express my views about something that causes irreparable harm think hard about that word.

I've found that the more people study and learn about the natural or genuine forms that exist in the wild the more they value them, and the less they value hybrids.

Hybrids remind me of a virus which, once in the population, spreads and can never be removed, like herpes or HIV. so any time I can present information that might discourage someone from creating more, of course I will.

Think of an uncommonly beautiful woman: is it the same, once you realize she's had a boob job, liposuction, lip Botox, and whatever?? Or when you realize she's not the nice natural beauty you first valued, and that THAT matters?

All "frosted" to some extent, and all from VMS "Tequila Sunrise" line; the original "Tequila Sunrise" female was proven out to be an Ultramel Anery A het diffuse, motley, and hypo...whether or not she's a gray rat cross...well...we can only speculate :*)

the original "Tequila Sunrise" and the ghost first used to breed her at VMS...

My F1's, a snow and 2 anery A's pics thru the years...

F2's, from mine and other "TS" F1's

The only caveat to the "Ultra gene is from Gray rats" line of thought is why does the Ultra gene react with the Amel gene in corn snakes? And does it react the same way if bred to an amelanistic rat snake? For what it's worth I still can't believe no ones done this pairing, just to cross that "T"...