Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just wanting to see if maybe i'm the one who is out of touch?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I'll start it off.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

NEVER THE SNAKES FAULT.

sure some people have kept them to cool (which I see a lot0 or the snake has pathogens.
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www.Bluerosy.com

yes! chomper puked up a chick last week. I'm not what caused it. Temps at 90 on the warmest end, and she usually manages a chick easily.
I also had one of my white sides throw up once but that was just me feeding him way too big a meal.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

Same here I had a male regurge a chick this week that never had a problem with them before.

and she's around 600 grams too, so a 30 gram chick isn't exactly a huge meal for her either. She's fine and ate a small rat (about 20 grams) yesterday and seems to be OK.
*shrug*
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
6.6 African House snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
.1 corn snake
4.2 Florida Kings
1.2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
0.0.1 Argentine boa

It definitely isn't the norm for floridana, but I had a huge female floridana regurge one time that ate a little too much too soon between feedings.

And of COURSE it was my fault, but the fact is it STILL HAPPENED!!, and can potentially happen whenever you go overboard with food. The fact of the matter is that it isn't natural for them (or ANY snake) to be "stuffed" to the gills 24/7 anyway. Is this healthier than a bit more moderate feedings?,.....I SERIOUSLY doubt it folks.

I wasn't ever aware of the "stuffed like they should be" rule either. Well-fed? sure!,.....constantly "stuffed"?, this would have to be less healthy from the animal's perspective, but if the goal is to force a female to produce as many eggs as possible in as little time as possible, then stuffing them and making sure it has plenty of heat is definitely going to be necessary.

The fact is, floridana DO NOT have to have meals constantly stacked-up to their necks. There is a big difference between being fed very, very well and being extremely healthy, and always being loaded to the brim.

If this difference cannot be understood or comprehended, then this is certainly the keepers fault just like any other facet of their husbandry would be.

All I know is that mine are not starving and on their "death beds" with what they are getting here.LOL!..

One parting question for everyone here. Does this young '09 female look thin or starving?, or unhealthy in any way?

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

The only problem I see, is that older (Fat)snakes might have a problem with egg-binding if there to fat, and have no muscle tone.
I perfer a lean snakes with weekly intakes, give the snake a chance to move around a bit for exercise instead of just laying there trying to digest its food 24/7.
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Yes, I totally agree. Once smaller younger snakes have used their substantial food intake for growth and have become adults, they no longer metabolize and convert those same calories into growth and can DEFINITELY become obese if the diet is not altered. I have seen COUNTLESS pictures of fat-ass, over-fed adult getula in the past.

Some speculate that large fat deposits can surround and restrict the ovaries in obese snakes, not to mention the fact that fat cells surrounding all their vital organs is very unhealthy too, just as it would be in any other animal.

When you add up everything and take it ALL into account, robust and healthy is definitely a much healthier scenario than being overly fat. I guarantee a leaner snake has a longer lifespan than an obese fat snake does...GUARANTEED!. Unfortunately, this probably doesn't matter to some, as long as eggs are produced constantly.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Unfortunately, this probably doesn't matter to some, as long as eggs are produced constantly.

To bad for the snakes and the owners.
I ONLY SEE SHORT TERM PRODUCTION UNDER THOSE SITUATIONS.
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Bob,

is that sand or gravel in your tanks?

LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Bob,
>>
>>is that sand or gravel in your tanks?
>>
>>LOL!
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>>www.Bluerosy.com

#2/12 Kiln dryed Sand.
Bob
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Yea, actually, she does look like she could use a few more hours at the local Chinese buffet, taking in a few more pounds of fried S and S chicken, orange chicken, sesame chicken, and rounding it off with 10 crab rangoons and 4 eggrolls dipped in S and S sauce.

Oh, and washing it down with a Diet coke, since you know, she is watching her weight....LOL!!!!

Beautiful snake Doug!!
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Genesis 1:1

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Sounds like a meal an ex had one time....lmoa

This is all you can eat! Not you can eat all!!!
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Jimmy Tintle

HA HA! Too funny!!!
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Genesis 1:1

That's a very beautiful and healthy looking Floridana.

Mine hasn't regurged, but i've only had him for 6 months. I feed my '10 brooksi (~150g) one weaned mouse (~15g) every 5 days. I can't imagine feeding him more items and/or more often. Sometimes when i feed him, i already feel like i'm stuffing a sausage. He's a fat and lazy pig LOL. Feeding him more would also mean cleaning up more snake poop!

Doug,

This thread started from below when it was Jorge who brought it up to the top. he was not the OP of that thread and taken things a bit far and out of context by starting a thread which leaves the other one dry.

A tad amount of common sense here must be applied which jorge seems to be lacking in understanding my posts.

The OP (from the ORIGINAL thread below) the post was about a young AND GROWING brooks. of course adult brooks can be overfed. But not if they are breeding and producing 2-3 clucthes per season. Anywhow the reply ahd to do with a smaller brooks and one where the Op was afraid to feed it TO LARGE a food item.

the Op's question was about the size of the food item for a small snake and how often.

You have to account for neonate and sub adult brooks which are almost impossible to give a meal that is to large unless it is another snake (AGAIN -common sense here applies) ..And if a Florida king has to large a meal that it simply cannot get down IT WILL QUIT. It will try but when it realizes the food item is too big it will simply quit and sopit it out. No harm will come to the snake and that is not considered a regurge.

The real question here is how many peoiple have experimented with their snakes in optimal captive conditions> I am leaving a lot out here since i have seen the craziest things that people do from following a recipe book<

So as far as others saying theirs regurged. Well with keeping and raising THOUSANDS of Florida kings myself and feeding them to the tilt. I can definetly say they can and should be fed as much as possible (non adult breeding size animals do not count since they are restricted from what nature is telling them what to do and feeding them when they are cycling will just make an adult FAT! ........But it is impossible to overfeed , give to large a food item (feeding snakes does not count)to a neonate or subadult of even a young adult florida king.

Some people don't beleive what i am telling them until they come over and see it for themselves. I have sevral Florida in a unit. they SHARE their food and don't eat each other and YES i feed them as much as they can eat (esopecially growing Floridas and breeding size females). I just throw the food in and don't look back. It would be impossible to what all teh snakes at every feeding. they do their thing and no regurges and no accidents of them eating each other.

This comes from years of working with them and testing and experimenting . I had the same phobias as many do here. but please don't give advice when you have 50 Florida kings and say you are an expert. Expertise come from experimenting. Then get results from doing it for a number of years with hundreds or thousands of Floridas in one collection.

Statistics don't lie. A few people here with regurges is hardly satistics in my book. My response is I DON'T HAVE A CLUE WHAT THESE PEOPLE ARE DOING OR WHAT CONDITIONS OR WHAT CONDITION ect the snakes are in.. But i have resolved peoples problems by going over to their house and seeing the snakes and such. then it takes a few seconds to figure out what they were doing wrong.

All I ave to say about feeding is this information i am giving should not be free. matter of fact it is stupid of me to share. just like Ball python people tell you it takes 2 years to get a male BP to get to breeding size. You see, they are smarter than me. they know if they tell people the truth that they will raise them up quicker and create high end $ BP in 6 months. BUT THeY DON"T WANT YOU TO KNOW THAT. So go ahead and sparingly feed your floridas . it is no skin off me. I am just a professional breeder who specializes in floridas.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Doug,
>>
>>This thread started from below when it was Jorge who brought it up to the top. he was not the OP of that thread and taken things a bit far and out of context by starting a thread which leaves the other one dry.
>>
>>A tad amount of common sense here must be applied which jorge seems to be lacking in understanding my posts.

Jorge definately understands yoor posts Rainer. I am just getting a bit tired of some people coming on here like they are the only ones with sound advice and making blanket statements like, "Florida Kings never regurge, because they are florida kings Period!" There are many cricumstances to take into consideration, so blanket statements should be avoided. I agree that styffing snakes is not good husbandry, so yes it is not the snakes fault when they regurge. But it does happen! As for the part about 50 snakes vs 10,000 snakes. Well, if i had 10,000 snakes and one got eaten by it's cage mate, I might not even notice it's missing? Just saying, it's harder to keep TRACK of snakes when you have hundreds and hundreds than when you have 50. We have to realize there are people with less experience who may read our posts and take our advice!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

" I am just getting a bit tired of some people coming on here like they are the only ones with sound advice and making blanket statements like, "Florida Kings never regurge, because they are florida kings Period!" There are many cricumstances to take into consideration, so blanket statements should be avoided."

Very good point! Hence the reason why this forum and particular dogmas as such get laughed at and made fun of by the actual top professional breeders of our time. They never want to post cause they don't want to have to deal with the childish actions that go on at times on these forums.

Oh well, that is what happens when you deal with ones' pride. Humans are like that. Maturity is taking into account every detail before spouting off conclusions that are not logical.

We will never stop learning about our snakes. We do need to continue to learn how to deal with differing ideas along with cold, hard scientific facts. How we treat each other says a lot, and also, to those who are learning as well, but then again, we all are learning.
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Genesis 1:1

I have not! LOL!

Proper husbandry is in some ways, knowing when to stop feeding.

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Genesis 1:1

>>
>>Proper husbandry is in some ways, knowing when to stop feeding.

Very True!
Bob B

Thank you sir!
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Genesis 1:1

I haven't, but I haven't kept any Floridana in many years......Back then I fed once a week on my schedule......I had about 12 Floridana that would rush me when I opened their enclosures.......I know now they sure wanted more than what I provided them.........

All I have to say about the last few days of posts is this:

We should be teaching and learning rather than preaching......
We should all learn from each other and not put down one person's way of doing things.......There are certainly more than one way to skin a cat......I may have been guilty on a few occasions but I kinda hate where all of these cliques are going........I respect everyone's will to learn and teach......But most here are taking the wrong approach by stating that there is only one way to correctly keep these animals in captivity........When we know soooooo many have been successful with many other methods and techniques......So what criteria are we using to measure success?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>
>>We should be teaching and learning rather than preaching......
>>We should all learn from each other and not put down one person's way of doing things.......There are certainly more than one way to skin a cat......I may have been guilty on a few occasions but I kinda hate where all of these cliques are going........I respect everyone's will to learn and teach......But most here are taking the wrong approach by stating that there is only one way to correctly keep these animals in captivity........When we know soooooo many have been successful with many other methods and techniques......So what criteria are we using to measure success?
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>>John Lassiter

John I agree 100%! When I say say something or give advice, I always say it is my experience from what I have learned over the years. I never give a comment that is meant to be trump all others. On the contrary I started this thread to show that not everyone does feed their Floridas to the hilt. Also that many have experienced them regurging for various reasons but mainly overfeeding, and once an animal starts regurgeing it can spiral out of control. I think I remember a post recently from someone who fed their Florida a large meal and it puked only to continue having problems untill it died. My reason is to give people some caution and male them use good sense when following advice. Just because someone cranks out hundreds of offspring doesn't mean they are doing everything right. Like you said, what measure will we use to measure success.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

We should all remember that there is two types of advice to give......Newbie advice then Expert Advice.......Most newbies need the "cookie cutter" advice to get started then they should listen (to others and to their animals), learn (from others and thier animals) and apply what they have heard or learned......I still am learning...I think we all are....I take everyone's advice and weigh what applies to me and my animals......I have also learned alot from my animals over the last few years and have applied new husbandry techniques and even created a few inventions to help me and others eventually.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Unfortunately in this case it's more about work ethics, really.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

And most regular oposters giving advice here have not tried any exprimenting. But they do give lots of advice.

Most newbies need the "cookie cutter" advice to get started then they should listen (to others and to their animals), learn (from others and thier animals) and apply what they have heard or learned"

John,
I think we need to stop being so sensitive and beating around the bush with this issue on Florida kings. it is real simple . FEED the darn snake! and feed it well and as often as it wants.

All the rest is BS.

you see. most newbies don't overfeed their floridsa kings. THEY UNDERFEED THEM. They put them on schedules of once per week and feed very small rodents-pinkies, fuzzies -hoppers. That is the 'cookie cutter advice" they are getting. and we need to help them grow in the knowledge and in turn help the snakes grow to. if we don't. then well..

..What happens then is the snake will continue to be fincky and continue to be a problem feeder. Then when someone else gets it it is even rougher. Even though they try feeding it right. These animals often languish and die after a couple years. ..(A lot of Florida kings bought in pet shops come from this type of abuse where they were fed very little over a long period of time).

So with the overwhelming majority undefeeding their snakes, (because they take the textbook advice of feeding one mouse per week blah blah blah). I am trying to help overcome their PHOBIAS in their mind of feeding their snake a meal that they can handle. And to feed often.

So you see, you guys are not helping the snakes. You are hurting them and the longrun. And yet these are one of the most bullet proof snakes in captivity. Frankly i find this whole jousting about regurging Florida kings and them getting fat hilarious and ridiculous at the same time. And all this from from such 'so called' experts.

So people come here asking advice on food size or frequency. yet nobody thinks about asking the age and size of the snake and what they have been feeding. I see this happening here quite often.. this is something i sometimes take the time to do.I email them. I have asked many times in private PM/email and on posts. So, then i know what condition the snake is in... and the answer is it is usually stunted and extremly underfed. I know this before i post. Since i don't want to embarass or hurt the feelings of the poster or what condition their snake is really in. I let them know how to feed the snake more often and how often and what size.

then comes the calvary to save the snake from overfeeding, brrump brrrrrrrump barummm bump-bump...LOL!

...it's the same people with the same expereince. Which really hasn't changed in decades,,, but WHOA!>>, THEY have so much experience~ LOL! But on a forum most newbies don't know the difference of who is who. It only takes a couple people with the same old story over and over to misinform people and that is how the circle goes. and that is how it has been.

I will say it again. A Florida king will not regureg any size rodent it can get down its gullet- unless the snake has something wrong with it or the temps or other conditions are not met.

heck, these floridana are "snake eaters" in the wild. they are designed to take in large meals . If their system can handle snake food equal or sometimes bigger than themselves.. Talk about emulating what they do in nature. LOL!

bottom line is this. by telling newbies (or whomever) that they need to be careful not to feed their Florida king too much when they are already so afraid of feeding it a meal the size of a spoonful. They need prompting in the other direction. Not support what they have been doing wrong. encourage them to do the opposite. they are already scared as heck to feed a tiny morsel to the snake. Help them get over their personal hurdles and the info that what we call cookie cutter.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>And most regular oposters giving advice here have not tried any exprimenting. But they do give lots of advice.
>>
>>John,
>>I think we need to stop being so sensitive and beating around the bush with this issue on Florida kings. it is real simple . FEED the darn snake! and feed it well and as often as it wants.

Rainer...you are preaching to the choir as you know or should know how I keep my snakes and I don't have a single Floridana anymore...
But I do have Mexicana kings that have successfully bred at 18 months and eat well over 120 appropriate sized prey items in their first year....Some closer to 150.....
You should know as well as any that an adult snake will not eat as much as a young snake that wants to be an adult. Most of my adult snakes only want to eat once, maybe twice a week......I think this is normal since they haven't much "growth" to attain anymore. Adult snakes use caloric intake for other things than growth...And they do not need nor want as much as a growing snake

And Rainer...You know I experiment with different husbandry techniques...

You think most of the newbies here have at least read and learned something about keeping captive snakes, but ALOT of them got a snake on impulse and come here for advice....Not all, but ALOT.......So before you go and tell them to heat em and feed em first they must know how to do that correctly. Another thing I think you take for granted Rainer is that everyone that posts here wants to breed their snakes. Sure it is a vision for most but not Everyone wants to breed their snakes so, in turn husbandry is different for those who want to become snake keepers prior to snake breeders....Which I hope ALL of them achieve.

So.....There ARE different levels of advice to give to different folks. I share the same belief as you on so many levels but I only offer that advice to the folks I know who can and will listen then apply what I share.......I am by no means an expert in anything though.....Only 18 years experience with snakes but the last 3 have been where most of my REAL experience lies because before then I was following the "cookie cutter" way and I see the difference between just living and thriving.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,
The post wasn't directed at you and your snakes and the type of snakes. It was because of all the confusion about the FLORIDA KIINGS . Which Jorge decided to make an issue of and has become all this talk, talk, talk.

The epidemic in the hobby is i see lots of underfed malnorished florida kings being fed once a week on small fod items. I see 2 to 3 year old animals at 20-30" and still feeding on fuzzies. ect

As i said before and probably hundreds of times on here in the past. JUST FEED THEM as much as they want! it can't get any more "cookie cutter" basic than that.

All the rest of the talk is just BS.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I know nothing was directed at me Rainer.....

You know as well as I that there is more to it than just feeding them all they can eat.......Conditions and husbandry must be right first....It takes some folks years to figure out a "good" way and many more years to figure out a "better" way......Then it improves each year or so......

I do agree.....Feed your snakes when they are hungry not every Sunday after the game or race.......LOL

And I also agree that Floridana are nearly bullet proof......It is simple to allow them to thrive and reproduce in captivity.....Thus their popularity over the last decade......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yeah, I've seen some REALLY under-fed Florida King snakes too! Both extremes are bad. Under feeding and over feeding are not healthy for the snakes!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I couldn't agree more about all that.

That was also the best way to present the information too.

I also am a bit hesitant to tell certain newbies or much less experienced people certain things about how I do things because many of the fine details are tough to get across and fully comprehended in just a simple post or two, I'm sure you can certainly relate to that as well.

Anyway, that was a very good post, and hits on the different key things for different individual goals and situations much better than some of the other posts I have seen here about this issue.

There is no doubt that we all see many kings that are under-fed that definitely DO need to be fed far more, so the bottom line is these snake should be fed larger more appropriate-sized prey, and sometimes more often too depending on the situation, but I think ONLY saying...FEED!, FEED!, FEED!, FEED! is not always a wise "blanket" statement in all given situations, just as you probably don't.

I feed my floridana large multiple meals that they can just fit down their heads, but I am sort of leary to advise EVERYONE to do just as I do, because an experienced eye and good judgement, along with optimum conditions also have to be met. I know we can all agree on that. I find that many other types of snakes(and older snakes) are basically just as you pointed out earlier too, and don't necessarily need the same caloric intake younger growing snakes would need.

Anyway, that was a good post John, and I hope many folks read it too.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thanks Doug....

The fact is I understand where EVERYONE is coming from on this issue....I have kept snakes both ways and many ways in between......I have learned the way my snakes like to be kept...At least I hope I have.....LOL

I do not disagree with the Heat em and Feed em as method at all.......And I do not agree with a small item once every 7 to 10 days method either......Those are opposite ends of the spectrum there.......Somewhere in the middle is what most snakes need........Then there are some snakes that would fair well at one end or the other........Floridana and Hondos fair well at the end of the spectrum where there's lots of meals........Lots of Boas and Pythons thrive on smaller items weekly or so.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

.
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

>>>Only 18 years experience with snakes but the last 3 have been where most of my REAL experience lies because before then I was following the "cookie cutter" way and I see the difference between just living and thriving.......

>good post john,
i really think your last statement says it all. either a keeper is ok with them just living or will provide conditions for them to THRIVE. big differance there. weekly feedings are just living but if you want them to thrive you HAVE to feed them more often, really simple just not for some. its amazing to see/read how some folks actually DEFEND feeding small food items weekly, sad really.

,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"its amazing to see/read how some folks actually DEFEND feeding small food items weekly, sad really"

That's funny, exactly where did you see/read anyone "defending" feeding small food items weekly to floridana?

Are you sure you didn't REALLY just decide to pop in here to do your usual trolling bit?

I think we ALL know the answer to that one, don't we?
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Doug...I don't even think that was an attempt at trolling........
I don't even think it was aimed at you.....You don't feed SMALL ITEMS WEEKLY.......do you?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

my post was to john lassiter. who's trolling here doug??? i mean really??? im entitled to state my opinion regardless of what you think.
this whole mess is about underfeeding i know you dont underfeed as can be seen by your '09fla.pic above that snake didnt get that way from feeding it a fz a week you and i both know that so WTF?
IMHO proper conditions, feeding frequency and size of prey items has EVERYTHING to do with a snake just living or a snake thriving and when it comes to floridana yeah FEED THEM OFTEN if you want them to thrive plain and simple.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

If that is the case, then my apologies Thomas.

Your right, my floridana certainly didn't get to the robust size they are from being fed a F/T fuzzy once a week.

I just didn't see where anyone defended someone that fed floridana any small meals.

Anyway, all is good!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

>>If that is the case, then my apologies Thomas.
>>Your right, my floridana certainly didn't get to the robust size they are from being fed a F/T fuzzy once a week.
>> I just didn't see where anyone defended someone that fed floridana any small meals.
>>Anyway, all is good!

Good on ya Doug!
Glad this didn't blow up again......
We all have our way of doing things and we believe it is the "right" way........But is seems there are many ways that are "right", right?.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yes, It's similar to carpentry in many ways. You can many times build the same thing a few different ways, or with different materials to achieve the very same outcome or end result..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

>>>good post john,
>>i really think your last statement says it all. either a keeper is ok with them just living or will provide conditions for them to THRIVE. big differance there. weekly feedings are just living but if you want them to thrive you HAVE to feed them more often, really simple just not for some. its amazing to see/read how some folks actually DEFEND feeding small food items weekly, sad really.

Thanks Thomas......
Yep....there is a big difference in just living and thriving in captivity, but each keeper achieves a thriving snake in multiple manners. I bet the folks that do just feed on Sundays do not provide all the options some of us do......But they still get their snakes to reproduce and thrive....Just in a different manner than others......Nothing wrong with it in my opinion....I do what I do....I try to teach and not preach......

I do think snakes in captivity are spoiled in our care....They have it ALOT better than the wild most of the time....Other than the fact that they are living in a box and all.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...