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Suboc Care

AriaSiaosi Mar 24, 2011 04:09 PM

I recently stumbled across these little beauties, and I'm having serious thoughts about bringing one home.
I'm having a hard time getting any specific information on them as a species and on their care. Can someone clarify things for me, and give me good solid specifics on them? I keep hearing about the "complete Suboc" book, so I know about that. And though I'd love to read it, I'd just rather not have to buy it if I can avoid it. I figure there has got to be plenty of people here who can help me

(I could've sworn I'd posted this earlier...)

Replies (8)

53kw Mar 24, 2011 06:13 PM

I've kept a lot of subocs over the last 25 years and I don't think there is anything particular about baby subocs that's all that different from other baby snakes with the exception that subocs often take a longer time to eat on their own.

I keep baby subocs in small Sterlite tubs that I've drilled vent holes in. I make 2-inch diameter holes and cover them with aluminum window screen, hot-glued into place. The screen is glued onto the outside of the hole. I run a bead of glue around the edge of the hole and attach the screen, then run another bead of glue along the exposed edge of the screen to cover it so I don't stab myself on exposed wire every time I handle the tub. Works great.

I put a substrate of clean forest mulch or a mix of organic topsoil, a bit of chopped peat moss and maybe some sand if I can get sand that was quarried from sand dunes rather than produced by crushing quartz rock. Crushed-quartz sand is irregular in shape and might bind into clumps if swallowed, while "wild" sand has eroded to smooth grains that are less likely to clump in a snake's intestine. Some people use paper towels or newspaper, which I think is too dry for a baby snake. Some people like wood chips (NO pine or cedar--those woods off-gas fumes and resin that at best is very irritating to snakes and at worst is lethal). The wood chip crowd uses aspen shavings. I don't like shavings because they are too light to offer much resistance when the snake moves around and needs something solid to push against, and because they are not heavy enough to provide a sense of security when the snake burrows. Wood chips also get moldy and off-gas if wet.

I have a friend who uses chopped paper bedding but I don't care for it for the same reasons I don't care for wood shavings. Whatever you use, if you put your snakes in Sterilites, be sure to have ample ventilation.

I put a slab of slightly cupped tree bark in for the snake to hide under. I find that baby snakes are more likely to eat if food is dropped under the bark, so it lands on the snake, then gently replace the bark. This may trigger a reflexive push-back on the part of the snake, which in turn may trigger a feeding response. Check back in about an hour to see if it worked. There are other tricks to get baby snakes to eat--most can be learned by reading these forums. Once a baby snake has fed a few times it will usually settle in and feed without tricks. It's interesting that baby snakes, like baby humans, have to learn to eat.

A water dish completes the set-up. Make sure the lid fits very well and don't allow small children to access the container--the snake has nothing to do all day but seek any mistakes made in securing the cage and exploit them. Be absolutely certain the container is secure each and every time you close it.

Subocs take longer to feed than most rat snakes. You may need to offer a lizard at first, as many baby rat snakes are more apt to eat a lizard than a baby mouse. Some subocs will take anoles as feeder lizards but many insist on lizards similar to the ones they would encounter in Nature--small spiny lizards, Tree Lizards or Side-Blotched Lizards.

I had a clutch of subocs hatch last summer and two ate as soon as they shed their post-hatching skins. The rest did not eat and were hibernated until a few weeks ago. Most have not yet eaten although some did finally eat after coming out of hibernation. Those that did eat accepted very small live baby mice.

I have a few pairs of adult subocs which I raised from hatchlings. There was some fussing over getting them to eat regularly but once that corner was turned, they ate like corn snakes, every week with no issues.

Subocs don't like a lot of heat so keep them around the mid-70s. They usually don't like light and in fact their eyes have those subocular scales that give them their name, because their eyes are so bulg-y, they need extra scales below the eye to support it. Bulging eyes like that suggest they become active deep into the night when there is very little light around. In addition to large eyes, subocs have a host-specific tick that can't live in dry areas, suggesting that subocs spend a lot of time in underground refugia where the tick has a moist microhabitat. As subocs live in the Chihuahuan Desert where the most reliable moisture is underground, it seems they seldom come to the surface in daylight. It follows that subocs don't care for light and can do OK in dimly lit containers for most of their lives. It's generally considered unneccessary to provide lighting as with some species of snakes.

That said, I have kept subocs in lit cages and they have been surface active during the day as if indifferent to the light.

Subocs are very interesting snakes. They also have a unique "feel" to their skin, quite unlike other snakes. They are generally passive when handled and are usually good eaters. There is something very lovely and special about them that sets them apart from other snakes. If you get past any small challenges over feeding and the proper caging, subocs are very rewarding animals to live with.

AllenSheehan Mar 24, 2011 06:58 PM

WOW! great reply. I have never kept Suboc but your comments darn near sold me on them.

Allen Sheehan

AriaSiaosi Mar 24, 2011 07:25 PM

thank you SO much for your lovely reply, it was just what I was looking for.
Can I ask a few questions? In what way is their skin/scales different feeling? Just curious. What about their behavior/ activity? What size are they? I can only find one 'reference' to see how big they can get, but all the writing I can find suggests they similar in size to corn snakes.
I had never heard of the species, but I found a particular snake that just 'feels' right, ya know? It happens to be a Suboc, and though I find them beautiful, I might not be as interested if it weren't for this one individual.

PeeBee Mar 24, 2011 09:08 PM

Adult subocs range from 3-5 feet. They are very mellow delicate snakes that handle very well. I’m not sure by what you mean about the way their scales feel. They can be active when hungry, but otherwise tend to hide. They’re nocturnal.

Subocs are not as hardy as corn snakes. They can do well under the proper conditions, but if not, they can deteriorate quickly (or slowly) & die. Wild captives used to be known for puking & dying.

They need ventilation, low humidity (Dusty may disagree) & clean conditions. I’d recommend small meals. They should not be power fed. I'd suggest aspen bedding as a substrate.

They breed later in the year than most native colubrids – June & July. They have small clutches of relatively large eggs & that have a very long incubation period (100 days).

That said, why the reluctance to buy the book? It’s most likely cheaper than the snake, and it’s definitely cheaper than the combined cost of the first snake, & replacement snake you may have to buy because you didn’t know how to care for the first snake.

PB

tbrock Mar 24, 2011 09:43 PM

... Especially the last paragraph. I own Dusty's suboc book and have read it, but I don't even own any subocs yet! I love books (always have), and especially books devoted to herps. Think about it - a whole book devoted to subocs and their care...

That said, the first responder made a very nice caresheet. I would still prefer to augment that info with a book by someone who has specialized in the species.

-----
-Toby Brock
Southwestern Center for Herpetological Research

DMong Mar 24, 2011 10:10 PM

"why the reluctance to buy the book? It’s most likely cheaper than the snake, and it’s definitely cheaper than the combined cost of the first snake, & replacement snake you may have to buy because you didn’t know how to care for the first snake"

That's the very first part that caught my eye too!

Why would someone not want to "know" precisely how to maintain them properly, and simply ask a few forum questions here and there that you wouldn't really remember all the fine details to anyway, when you could get a good book and refer to it whenever you wanted for countless years to come???

I was just talking to Don Soderberg about this very same thing just TODAY!. The internet is a great tool, but it also is a means for people to get instant gratification, but unfortunately most people only retain bits and pieces from it when they would be far ahead of the game if they just read about the subjects they really want to know and learn about....not guess about!

I have stacks of snake books several feet tall, and have been reading about snakes for almost 44 years now. The internet is a good supplementing tool, but you will NEVER get from it what you can from good books, especially for a rock-solid understanding foundation. It just won't happen.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

AriaSiaosi Mar 25, 2011 12:22 AM

I completely agree. This is not intended to be my only means of information.
The problem wasn't so much that I couldn't find enough information for keeping them, but I didn't feel I had enough to make an informed decision before moving forward. I do not want to buy a $50 book only to realize that this isn't really the snake I want after all. I was just looking for enough information to see if this could be the right snake for me. I'm always really flighty on big decisions, and anything to help me make the right choice is helpful.

53kw Mar 25, 2011 06:52 PM

Subocs have weakly keeled scales, as do other rat snakes, but subocs' scales are a little stiffer than some snakes' scales, giving subocs a firmer feel than some other species. Most interesting texture. In contrast, for example, indigos and cribos have large scales that are soft and feel almost like human skin. I also think subocs have firmer muscles than some snakes which contributes to their firmer feel.

Your'e right--they do get about the same size as corn snakes. They are more shy than corn snakes for the most part but I can handle mine and they seem to be OK with it. A suboc that was handled regularly would most likely be just as calm as a corn snake.

Some subocs like to eat in private, under their hiding bark. Some will strike a live mouse or dead mouse wiggled in forceps as aggressively as a yellow rat snake. One of mine will attack food like a rattlesnake, another prefers a dead mouse placed under the bark with the snake. Come back in an hour to see if the mouse was eaten. Some subocs will eat several items in one meal, most subocs prefer to eat only one mouse at a time but may eat twice within a week's time. It's also not unusual for subocs to eat only once every several weeks.

I've always liked the ultra-clean look of the neck striping, and I've always liked the look of the fade-out pattern on the rear half where the pattern changes--two lovely snakes in one. My Hueco Canyon animals have a special, indescribable fawn-taupe-golden color, and my male Panther Canyon is one of the orange ones. I got two orange babies out of my locality-matched Panther Canyon pair, which I have decided to keep. That will give me an orange pair and some fawn Hueco babies if I breed the Huecos this year. There is a remarkable quality to the color of the Hueco Canyon animals--they seem to glow against the dark mulch I keep them on--really extraordinary animals.

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