Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Opinions?

I see the Hypo. Am I missing the Sunglow, or is the Hypo a DH Sunglow? What does Chocolate have to do with it?
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

I believe this is the non-hypomelanistic version.

O.K. I saw a Hypo in the first post, and a normal in this one. Where do Chocolate and Sunglow come into play here? To give an opinion we need to be informed... What's missing?
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

'Sorry not every pic is a masterpeice...same snake, different lighting in this one.

I didn't comment on the photography. I am still looking for a Sunglow. And I'm still curious what Chocolate has to do with anything. Am I missing something here?
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

In this pic there's hypo-chocolates, chocolates and hets (still proving it out, but results/numbers thus far indicate that the "chocolate dilute" and "Mayan(stripe)" are separate genes most likely recessives (although there's visible hets).

Isn't brown/drab the color that most are trying to figure out a way to get rid of?

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

i was in the same fram of mind but then 1 day i popped this little bugger and now i love chocolate like a little school boy:

Manny Frade | Breeder
(858) BCI-BOAS

Collector Quality Boa Constrictors

That is Not Chocolate Manny, that's Red , Oragne and all the Good Colors !

. . . Lar m
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

i agree however the head markings and halfway into the body it is chocolate man, hard to photo but trust me its a rich chocolate. ground color and tail blotches are reddish but the head markings and many saddles are brown.

Hey Manny . . . . . . .

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

not a normal with a unique descriptor for a name.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Normals and hypomels poss het Chocolate-dilute/Mayan-stripe, blood & Anery-2.

I think he is implying that this is a new line of T positive?
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Thanks Vinnie Caruso
opinons are like a--holes... everybody has one and they all stink

LOL.... that's a pretty boa.... but I dont get the whole Chocolate reference.. I never will understand morpher speak.... Food seems to be the latest source of names
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

Thank you! "Chocolate-dilute" is what I think they are whether it turns out to be actually T-positive recessive or not. There is at least one similar appearing bloodline in Europe that is thought to be codominant (because of visual hets...I'm not sure there's been enough breedings to absolutely confirm yet). There's another supposedly completely unrelated bloodline that is thought to be recessive T-positive/codom-hypoerythristic combo(also throws jungly aberrancies, as does every similar line I've found). I can't say that the striping is not compatible with other known lines (why I still refer to them as "Mayan-stripe line" denoting my particular bloodline which may or may not be it's own new morph), only that my results have been more similar to a European line than to those in the U.S., in my belief (not all of my line that are extreme stripes have the broad stripe of super-stripes with lighter center stripe, some are more "jungly". I've gotten no orange eyes denoting "super jungles" although the "jungly aberrancies" even broken head pattern is frequent. As far as color goes there is toning down of both blacks and reds (although hets can be low pigmented ot highly pigmented with either or both or any combo of colors), just like with "dilute genes" in mammals (a chocolate dilute calico cat is chocolate brown, pink and white instead of black, red and white/T-positive genes usually interfere to some degree in red pigment production as well as black). I never expected to get a color morph like this originally...I bought "pastel Nicaraguan poss het type-2 anery" and het sunset hoping to make ultra light colored ghosts; this is what I got (the somewhat anery looking offspring usually have trace amounts of orange on them and occur n less than 1/4th of the offspring---I think it's just a variation of the hets) so instead of back tracking for years breeding to normal I'm working with what I already have. Here's a pic of the sire of the juvies already posted; his dad was het sunset and mother a "pastel Nic" and he is only codom hypomelanistic not a super. The "black" bordering on his tail is almost translucent waxy looking with washed out faded bordering.

Hog blood explains a lot of the color variation in your litter. It's obvious that there's a color difference within your animals in the litter. The pushback you're getting is because we all believe it's natural variation and not a new morph.

Is this from an ACTUAL DM line sunset, or one of the knockoffs others created and called Sunsets? Need to know whether it's "salmon" line or "orange tail" line. Could explain some of the aberrancies.

I'd LOVE to have more morphs in the boa market, but I'm not sure what you have is 1) actually a morph or multiple morphs, or 2) anything different from what's already established and needing a new "name".

And what's the likelihood that one person stumbles upon one new morph? Out of all of the boa breedings done in the world, it doesn't occur often. Now, what's the likelihood that the same person stumbles across two or more? Pretty friggin slim. Now, what's the possibility that this same person stumbles across two, in ONE breeding? Those are ASTRONOMICAL odds. Three or more genes randomly popping out of one breeding is just ... well, I don't want to say it's impossible but... it's pretty much impossible. I've actually lost count of the number of genes you're proclaiming out of this one line (3? 4? 5?). Does that help to explain our skepticism.

As was mentioned from someone else, you need to trace back the lineage of your animals to see if you have any possibility of having aberrant hypo lines, other aberrant lines, jungle, any T , etc... that may explain some of what you're seeing to reduce those astronomical odds to something that can be believed.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

You are pretty much reiterating what I've already said, and what I already know. The originals were bought as "female Nicaraguans" and as "het sunset"----I only had been interested in these specifically because of the unusual colors and patterns, and the fact that females were poss het anery-2, and I thought all things considered, they should make exceptionally nice ghosts. Like everyone else, when that first "hypo-chocolate" cropped out I thought it just had to do with the "pastel Nic" genes and Hog Island genes, but I did get interesting pattern that varied from very jungle-like to very Aztec-like (why I chose the "tentative name" of "Mayan" in case it proved out (I was hoping for patternless). I bred the mother of the original litter to the "Blue Moon line" male next season, only because she had cropped out a "smoke hypo" looking juvie the previous litter that was remarkably similar to the original Blue Moon male (only he was "blue ghost" in appearance whereas I'd call this one "gray-brown or chocolatey ghost" in appearance), so there was some indication they could be genetically similar. I bred the other female Nic to Stone line Nic X Cancun het T snow. From the first one I got alot of variation, as would be expected, but also the same ontogenetic hypoerythrism and development of an overall gray/amber/honey/yellow wash (not unlike "coraling" in coral albinos) that the first litter had(and the same occurs in Blue Moons, although it's much more restricted to grays/blue-grays). Some had deep inky blacks (the sire was an "IMG-type" snake). The other poss het T Snow litter had similar range of lightness to darkness in color, but as expected toned down reds/yellows/oranges...I did get both hypoerthristic and what looks type-2 anery, as well as a surviving juvie (a couple were born dead that were very light as well) that looked like some form of hypomelanistic dissimilar to any line I'd ever saw. Mr. Stone says that neither parent was hypomelanistic, and it must have came from the mother. I did not personally collect those females in Nicaragua to know that's all they are; I only know what I was told, that they are the correct size, and unfortunately temperment to be "Nicaraguan." The 2009's had what looked to be visual hets for the pattern so when I bred the "Mayan/chocolate" line together last year I was only expecting the pattern morph and not expecting to produce "dilutes" in appearance. Some are in shed right now, but the hypo-chocolates have developed very nice color that is not too unlike the color of the VPI jungles I've recently seen advertised----the skin looks very transluscent compared to "normal" hypo and even Hog Islands. The one litter has 1/4th Hog Island blood, and others have 1/8th, and colors in the higher percentage litter are lighter yet brighter which is to be expected judging on affects "Hogs" have on the T-, and blood morphs, etc. Since I got extreme stripes that were not chocolate, and chocolates that had little to no aberrancy, I'm having to believe it's two (or more) separate genes. Not unlike "super-stripes" I think there more be more than one gene affecting the striping, and it IS more likely to be a known gene than something new...I've not tested for compatibilty yet. On the color: When they were originally born, I thought all of the extremely light ones were hypomelanistic and slight color difference was just natural variation. But, as they've aged it looks quite clear to me that "chocolates" are NOT hypomelanistic, and only the more yellow toned ones are hypos. Chocolates have no or nearly zero visible black yet retain all or some (this reduction of normal dark patern outlines likely because of the Hog influence) of the pattern normally lost in hypomelanistics. When I originally posted, I had expected that people would be able to show me similar animals they've produced out of the b'jillians of Hog crosses/het sunsets on the market, but this has completely failed to happen thus far. Please show me pics of your bred-for animals that have zero visible black while retaining the complete pattern, that are not some version of T-, T-positive or dilute? I'm not saying it's impossible, only that nobody has proven it to me yet.

O.K. Now we have something to look at. Thanks.
You asked for opinions, here goes.

First, I see aberrancies. Are you referring to these as "Mayan"? This could be from any number of already established lines animals that throw abberant patterns and are proven to be genetic ie: Aby line, MB line, Jungle, Cyclone. Is there a chance that you have some of this blood in the collection?

Second, I see a couple of light colored boas and some very, very normal boas. It could be similar to a Pastel line that is nothing more than a polygenic trait.

Third, I see some Hypos and some Hypos that may also be considered Pastel Hypos.

I still personally see nothing that warrants a new title or name. I still don't see any Sunglows. Did you mean DH Sunglow? And now there is a "Chocolate Dilute"... What is that?

If indeed you feel that you have something that we are all not seeing, I think that you need to put together some sort of write up starting from the beginning (Parents/grandparents) their background along with photos and litter numbers, breeding trials ect. I would also suggest, judging by your photos, that you reach out to someone that you know to assist you in capturing what it is that you see that we don't. Put this altogether with correct grammar, terminology and punctuation and you may or may not get somewhere.

Remember, you asked for opinions...
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

Jeff some of these have Hog island mixed in along with several other "Boa types".

So my guess is several different phenotypes can and will occur from any pairing of these animals.

I agree that the aberrant animals are some thing to look into.

They might be a fully recessive trait like the Super Stripe line !

Or another line equal to Abby , cyclone , MP etc . . . . .

I believe Super stripe and another stripe line Anthony Conley is working with originated with C.A. blood.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Thanks Lar. I have no doubt that your information is accurate, as we all know you to be a bit of a "boa archive nut." But I think it is for Chris to tell us what the ingredients are.

I would be willing to bet that the abberancies are likely due to the contribution of an already established line. You know as good as anyone that there are a TON of lower expression animals from Jungle, Aby, Cyclone and MB line litters floating around.

I would like to see what information Chris can share to cover all of it... Myan, Chocolate and this mysterious Sunglow.
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

I hear you Jeff, I asked him one day in one of his / these type post about 2-3 months ago.

That's when I found out there was hog island mixed in with several other Boa types.

So that explains some of the light colored Boas with strange tail border coloration.

The problem is the cart is coming before the horse with this situation.

The work hasn't been done to prove exactly what any of these are.

So I am in agreement with you Jeff.

He needs to do the work breeding the Boas and documenting the results entirely !

He needs to do research on what it takes to breed and document a new trait ( recessive or Dominance type trait ).

Before publicly exclaiming they are something . . . . X , Y , or Z !

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

That is not a sunglow and im missing the chocolate thing?

Is that a lil name you gave it?
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Richard Ceniceros

yeah I'm not getting the whole chocolate thing. I've seen every photo he posted and I just don't see it. Am I missing something? Is this a "new morph"? Thanks. Mike
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Honesty is my only policy
www.mikepanicreptiles.com

That’s a gorgeous hypo but I cant really see much more past that. If I can give a bit of a tip my first one would be to try to get a better photo of animals if you want to get solid opinions as that picture there is pretty rough to determine much of anything.

Manny Frade | Breeder
(858) BCI-BOAS

Collector Quality Boa Constrictors

I do need to get some better pics, but I just can't see why you guys think that's a "normal."

None of those are "super hypos"...the mother is a "het" like the darker ones pictured above.

much better and thanks, they are superb looking and beautifully patterned. reading everyones comments it seems no ones on your wavelength. what is it that you know about these animals and what have you proven out or attempting to? is it a new typo of albinism? T+ or T-? is it an original line of hypo as is Aby line, salmon, Orange tail? is this "chocolate" an Intense melanin gene type morph or think it is? whatever it is theyre definitely beautiful, however in my experience it does not look like any caramel or regular albino, it does not look like an anery or anything of that sort. I see some darks and high contrast stuff, definitely hypomelanism that you can definitely line breed and make a line of these, however i think your original post mentioned sunglow and things like that, and we are not seeing any "conventional" sunglow whether it be albinism of a caramel type or other. sorry if that frustrates you, but if you give us more info i think it would be easier on the rest of us.

Manny Frade | Breeder
(858) BCI-BOAS

Collector Quality Boa Constrictors

I still dont get the sunglow part, a sunglow is an albino hypo.

These snakes arent sunglows.
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Richard Ceniceros

It's funny to think about what reminds people of certain things they've seen, heard, etc...

Seeing all the labels like Chocolate, Chocolate Dilute, Super-Hypomel het Chocolate Dilutes, Mayan, Blue Moon, Purple Project, Jungly-like, Aztec-like hypoerythristic, Sun-burn hypomel, smoke Mayan, and a TON more.

I mean, look at the name dropping in one of yours posts: http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1858636,1858636&key=2010

All of this reminds me of a joke I heard recently from Ron White:
“I was doing a show at an army base and I mentioned that there were over 40,000 men stationed at that base. A well dressed lady stood up and yelled out “Yeah – and every one of them’s bad in bed (edited for KS)!”. You know, if I was her, after 39,000 times I might start to wonder – Maybe it’s me? Maybe I need to read a book?”

I think what everyone is saying in EVERY post you make this week, last week, the week before, and last year, is that you may want to grab a book.

All hail Ron White!

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

This is one of the reasons I have pretty much stayed away from anything relating to this. To me, between the horrendously bad pictures and the desperation of grasping some kind of similarity to another project, none of which I can make out due to the pictures, reminds me of a teenager that wants attention.

My advice:
1) Learn to take a good picture. It is not difficult. Get the instruction manual for the camera you have, or, get a better camera, and learn to use the macro function.
Bad photos can kill interest in a project faster than you can imagine,

2) Stop trying to call it something until you have proven it out. Therefore, you need to line breed and outcross to determine the true inheritance patterns of any and all traits that these snakes may carry.

Good luck

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I really don't see anything special or deserving of a "new name" here. Just my opinion, but all I see are some hypo and non hypo, slightly aberrant/stripey, muddy colored BCC / Hog Island crosses?

I don't understand how someone can put a name on an aberrant boa
like "Blue Moon Chocolate Dilute Mayan Stripe" or whatever and then just ask some over the top price for them...

I would love to see a new line prove out, but after seeing the pictures on here and the for sale threads on Fauna... I'm just not seeing it.

Good luck this season and with this project!
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"Go Big or Go Home" Muscle Morph Constrictors Inc. Long Island, New York

This poor guy gets clowned every time he posts...
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Richard Ceniceros

He has to know it's coming...

If I have a weird looking boa come out in my next litter and I decide to name it my "Diluted Clown Aztec Like Strawberry Line"
I would hope I would get called out on it.

Call it what it is... An aberrant, muddy brown hypo. case closed.

Just my opinion and I would have kept it to myself, but when I see a pair of these "gems" going for $1000 on Fauna it just makes me LOL
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"Go Big or Go Home" Muscle Morph Constrictors Inc. Long Island, New York

First let me say it was amazingly fast how some of you switched from saying "normal" to saying you saw something else. Having been criticized in the past for "name dropping" in trying to describe the appearance by pointing out similarities to other morphs instead of going into minutia of details I decided not to do that this time, and then the commenters did it and I still got the blame! And once again I'm pointing out that this is a public discussion forum....Not a scientific journal! Criticize me all you want for the informality of my posts because it is interesting when one scrolls down to see some of your posts on children mug shots, football/boxing discussions, etc., that nobody complains about be unscientific! You imply that I'm trying to pass mix breeds off as morphs, when I have hidden nothing about the lineage...you know that there's Hog Island IN SOME of them bcause I said there was----no secret there I was never a big believer in "visible hets" in recessives, but if one takes the pattern morph as being a separate gene from the color morph then it looks like it might be two recessives; numbers in litters in 2010 were not conclusive. It IS a morph in that I've been able to reproduce it successfully.....even if it were to turn out to be a polygenic effect, then it is still as much a "morph" as gtp morphs (excluding "albino" which IS a mutation-morph), many so called "pastel" Bci's etc., and combo morphs such as "sunsets" still have their morph value even though it's partly polygenic affect. At what point did these other Bci "morphs" get their names, and prove their genetics??? Keep in mind that I've been around for years (keeping reptiles for about 40 years total) and saw "het hypomelanistic Colombians" for sale, "hypomelanistic (turned out to be T ) Argentines for sale," Cyclone ads several years ago, etc. How many het Leucistics has Stone sold, and how many leucistics has that line produced? And the word "line:" Since when is saying something is "_____ line" bad? Then I guess "monstertail line" and "red group" is also forbidden! And it's apparently okay to breed "high red" but breeding for purple isn't allowed??? Just keep making arbitrary rules up as you go. I may not be a geneticist but I can read and I can see, and I know what an animal lacking black pigment is called....I've talked to multiple people who have bred Hog Islands and crosses (sunsets) and I have yet to find anyone with these results....zero black/black is not "missing" as with hypos, but only partly there as a transluscent chocolatety color. These have zero true black...EVEN LESS THAN VPI's, Russian Blondes, and BW Caramels (even though I know theirs are likely only black colored precursors to melanin, it's still "visible black" which chocolates do not have. Again I say, if it's just a common polygenic trait from being Hog crosses show me some more just like them???? I know of at least two other people working in hopes of proving out new lines of T , and they don't post on forums, etc., and now I see why. If you disagree with someone, you don't have to be rude or berating. I don't intend to stop posting on these forums from time to time, but I will no longer reply to idiotic, rude or otherwise irratating posts that are undeserving of a respectable reply...I am not going to be your enabler.

"If you disagree with someone, you don't have to be rude or berating. I don't intend to stop posting on these forums from time to time, but I will no longer reply to idiotic, rude or otherwise irratating posts that are undeserving of a respectable reply..."

I have asked you point blank questions about your claims.
I know of people that you have approached for trades who asked you point blank questions about these claims.

All done so without being rude. Yet, you fail to answer those direct questions time after time. I will go out on a limb and say that is why people are responding the way they are.

So, again...
Color claims:
1. Without new names, what is it you think you have, genetically speaking? (someone mentioned T is this right?)

2. What evidence do you have to support this?

3. What are the backgrounds of the adults that produced the trait?

Pattern claims:
1. How does it work?

2. Do your adults have ANY chance of being related to already established aberrant lines?

If you think you have something new, it's on you to show everyone the who, what, and why of it all. People aren't going to just jump into something that appears no different but has a huge price tag.
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com

n/p
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Jeff Carr
West Coast Constrictors
www.westcoastconstrictors.com