Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't know if many of you know who Terry Dunham is. We all know him as rtdunham who is a frequent poster here.

Terry Dunham was the owner of one of the most successful niches of herpetoculture breeding and selling high end Milksnake morphs. He was the king of the hill and made out very well in herpetoculture even during the beginning of this recession we are in.. Now I realize this is the kingsnake forum but Milksnakes and the various reccessive traits are very similar to kingsnakes. This post is more about the business end of breeding and selling. Not feeding, brumating, substrate, feeding or how lomg it takes for a breeder to reach maturity.

I was hoping he could post some aspects of the business end of breeding and not the actual care or breeding of the snakes. in other words what made him so successful (and he had one of the most successful runs) in breeding this ONE SINGLE species.

My questions of him would include what his business plan was to take over as the premeire breeder with this species. What his business plan and marketing was . What made him decide Milksnake morphs would be a good investment for him AND THE NEXT BEST THING. How he projected the success he CREATED with them?

i am sure there is a lot more to it and I hope we can all learn something from the business end from him. So if anyone else has questions from him about the business end of breeding snakes and not BREEDING and how to's. But just to emphasise what makes a successful breeder....

And he was one of , if not THEE most successful with a single species in the 20th century. Which means he made a heck of a lot of dough with minimal space and snakes which is about $$$.

I would like to start with a couple questions of my own which i am curious on his take of the whole milksnake craze:

1) After the milksnakes got popular what made you get out of them and time it perfectly before the crash of prices. to me it seemed as the prices were very high until the snows became avaliable. What made you get out of them at the right time and how did you know?

2) I noticed at the daytona Expo your table was always empty with the exception of a few posters and pictures of snakes. I never saw this with any other breeder at shows! You did not have any snakes for sale on your table. How did this advertising help you (if at all?) and were you delebratly sending a message that Milksnakes were so popular that you did not need to sell them at the Expo . Or could it be that you were you so successful that all your prodgeny were already sold out OR spoken for by August?

My aplogies to terry in advance if he has to type a whole lot answering some questions of perhaps giving us an overveiw (I asked his permission in advance before posting here). But i think this is something we never discuss on this forum and would help us all quite a bit. I think Terry would be the expert to tell us how to "make it" and what is required in this business and do you think it still can be duplicated today?

Thanks Terry!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Glad you brought this up Rainer. I'm eager to hear what Terry, and others, have to say about it. Maybe I should have waited a while longer before releasing all my snakes in my back yard the other day, after reading this earlier comment on the forum:

“Particularly colubrids, which are no longer profitable. You may pay for the cost of food and water, but there is no profit to be made from colubrids…”

>>“Particularly colubrids, which are no longer profitable. You may pay for the cost of food and water, but there is no profit to be made from colubrids…”
I think he did qualify that with the fact that some species and morphs are profitable...
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

This is true. He did. But still...

I think zenny is right about the passion. Passion is infectious! If others feel your passion then they are infected and become passionate also. I hate getting treated like I have in the past by many well known people in this industry. I won't buy crap from them again, even if they have a snake that lays golden eggs, that's just me. So I try to return that integrety and consideration unto others. Don't sell any animal you would not buy your self. Don't put out a doom and gloom attitude. Don't complain when people try to get a better deal from you! It's part of the buisness, deal with it. Give people a good deal and they will return. Times are tough right now, people don't have a lot of extra cash for non-essential things. Make their experience enjoyable. Do it cause you love it! If your looking just to make big bucks then you started out on the wrong foot. Maybe though if you make a great product and stand behind it, you might find you've mad some money at the end of the day. That's my soap box moment!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Rainer, great post and I would love to hear Terry's answers to your questions, also. I would like to add a few questions as well.

1) I beleive it is not the size of your collection but the quality of the animals. Terry, do you feel that a collection of different species is more likely to be profitable or just specializing in your favorite and just keeping a few others for shiz n' giggles?

2) If you would have to choose the next big Lampro species to be the next "Big Thing", what would it be?

3) How big was your collection at the biggest point? Was it unmanageable at times? Considering most, if not all of us here do have a primary job and keep snakes as a hobby. What is your outlook if there will ever be a chance for it to be as profitable as it once was? (I think Rainer touched on the same question)
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Jimmy Tintle

The hobby isn't evolving, we see how many people (here) still argue about "pure" snakes vs. crosses/hybrids but when you think of it from a purely "business" aspect what sells faster!? I usually see the hybrids and crosses selling way faster because they present something new and unusual. Most people don't care about the natural phenotypes, most people i show a nice normal Floridana barely give it a 2nd look, but when i pull out the mutated varieties their eyes light up and the questions start rolling.

Normal snakes are not appealing to the mass majority, plain and simple. Normal = Common = Boring

The hobby needs to appeal to more people if it hopes to survive (and see profit) ... Give the masses what they want, i.e. "Pretty Snakes." But if you're passion is Locale/normal/non-morph stick with it! You can't provide top quality if you're not passionate about the animals you work with. A project should never be taken on just because one expects to make a profit.

We need to stop thinking within this imaginary box, there is SO much potential yet people seem content with producing the same animals from the same pairings year after year. There isn't a standard way of doing anything! so why do we standardize colubrid breeding so much? It's 2011 people not 1979 the same 'ol same 'ol obviously just does not cut it!

We should be asking:

-What do people want in an animal
-What can bring I to the hobby (anything new?)
-How can I improve this animal
-What trait(s) can/should i selectively breed for?

Most seem to just be sitting back and waiting for the crash, while others are "getting out" of the hobby. If we expect anything different we need to be proactive and alternative.

On the issue of marketing... presentation is everything; sucky/blurry pics and disorganized vending tables just don't cut it! Be passionate about selling these animals, offer the consumer a level of quality you yourself would hope for when trying to select an animal

What will save the hobby is very simple: Passion, Variety and Quality!

I for one would be much more open to trades if the quality of what's being offered parallels my own.

~ZF

I agree
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www.Bluerosy.com

I think Zenny's exactly right. Besides broadening and expanding the selection and quality of animals and service available in the market place, the passion of the "seller" might likely be what gives the "buyer" that added incentive, which justifies (at least in his own mind) the purchase of a non-essential.

I admit, this present economic state we're in has my attention. It DOES concern me, and some others too, I'm sure. I fortunately, like many others here, have a primary source of income and it's not from my snakes. But there ARE those who make this their livelihood. I'll continue to have, and raise snakes regardless. I've never made the income generated from my snakes a primary focus. It is nice that my animals "pull their own weight", resulting in my tangible "passion" being able to sustain itself. When my bedding, mice, and supplies are paid for by the snakes I produce, I'm extremely satisfied and I don't demand anything more...anything above that is gravy. I, like everyone else here, loves what I do no matter what.

Let's face it, the economy sucks right now, our costs of living has gone/and is going up, and people are tightening up their belts. I'm not trying to be doom and gloom here...I'm a realist. I see what I see, and what I see are not hallucinations. In economic climates like the present, sometimes selection, quality, service, and passion may not be enough to convince Joe Blow to spend his hard earned money on a pair of snakes.

My question is not only to Terry but also to guys like Rainer, who are professionals in the truest sense of the term. So for those whose income is dependent on their sales, my question would be: Are there any other ways (in addition to selection, quality, service and yes - thank you Zenny - passion) to essentially "bullet proof" their business in this economy.

If we were not passiontae we would all be doing ball pythons.

bottom line is it is harder and you have to be much smarter to make money with colubrids. That means keeping you ear to the ground and knowing what sells and will sell.

I just got off the phone with a big ball python breeder and he was telling me what he made last year and what 4 or 5 other BP breders made. IT IS IN THE MILLIONS! (Million=plural) And they live in million dollar houses funded just by the snakes.

There were a lot of guys that made millions with the large Pythons and boas back in the day. Where did all those go with there money? I will tell you where. They went to Ball Pythons. Then the money they make off Balls, some of it goes back into Balls. So there is a constant cycle of money being circulated within the ball python market.

So however says you can't make money from snakes is really out of the loop. Reccession or not. those guys are laughing all the way to the bank.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I'm just waiting til i have time to adequately address your many good questions.
td

Start your post at the top when you do. I think this is to far down for such a helpful subject.
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www.Bluerosy.com