Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone have pictures of the offspring of an Eastern/Western union?
Look, I know that most people have strong gut reactions for or against hybrids, intergrades. I understand that, and that's your right. Please don't leave me messages of hate and protest. If you have seen the resulting offspring of a pairing like this or have pictures please share with me. if you are opposed I understand that, but I'm not asking for your opinion on the ethics of such, I'm just asking about the result of the breeding of these two.
I have many snakes of several different species and I have the legal right to breed whatever I like to add to my collection.
I pay great attention to their needs just like you do, and I seek advice and veterinary care at every turn.
I am asking the question here because this is a hognose forum. A place where people with knowledge of hognose will see my question. I would post it in the hybrid forum, but this is a question specific to hognose and thus has a right to be here. if this were a western hognose only forum I might not ask it here. Please respect that I may have a different opinion than you, but I have a right to that opinion.
I have written this long explanation because I know how hateful people can be, so thank you for your time.

That was quite a bit to read... LOL

I think you will find that most, if not 99% of the hog people on this site are very helpful, realistic, and down to earth...

This type of question will usually generate some opinions on the subject so it would be unrealistic to think it would not...

With that being said, I do not believe it has been done yet but I would expect it to happen any season now... There are just as many arguments against it as there are for it... I would not do this cross my self, but I would not have a problem if someone did it...

well, said.......G.M.

To the best of my knowledge hybridization between these two species has yet to be documented in captivity or in the wild. Personally, I am against facilitating hybridization in captivity, but would be interested in seeing photos of a Heterodon nasicus x platirhinos if such a hybrid existed. These two species do occur in sympatry across a portion of their range (including here in MN), so it isn't impossible for these two species to hybridize in the wild (stranger things have happened).

Cheers,
Chris
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Christopher E. Smith
Contact
Captive Bred Herps
Wildlife Research & Consulting Services, LLC

Yes you are right to do what you want but we also have the right to respond. By cross breeding you are creating an animal that is not pure. As more and more people do this then there are more and more animals out there that are not pure whether it be a western or an eastern or a southern. Now you may know what you have but in all honesty do you really think that everyone will be as diligent about letting consumers know that what they are buying is a HYBRID? You were right about one thing, you should go to a hybrid forum and ask your questions.

Thank you so much, especially Greg. I appreciate your knowledge as well as your opinion on the matter. I'll continue to post my questions as they come and I won't consider posting in another section because someone feels I should, in other words, not happening.
I can see the purist view, and I get it, the way in which purists frame the argument works, but either side of a quarter is just as good as the other.
An argument framed in an intellegent way is worth considering and I'll engage it.
If someone had pics and it proved to be really uninteresting snake or if the resulting offspring were sterile then yes that would tip the argument, but just because you ascribe to a view of the world that I don't myself is not going to prevent me from getting this eastern and western to mate. Thank you for all of the knowledgeable, educated responses, whether they differ from my opinion or not.

I personally can not take a purist stance on the subject of hybridization... It is just something I am not interested in doing my self with this particular species mostly because I do not think anything spectacular will come from the cross... I also totally respect the more purist views...

I feel that if you keep snakes in a cage or rack bin, there is nothing natural about it... Everything natural about the snake is no more in captivity... When we breed these animals in captivity, we take natural selection and throw it out the window even if you are breeding animals from the exact same locality...

I do not view hybridization any differently from breeding morphs... When you breed morphs, you are looking to create something that strays far from the "normal" wild type look... The same is done when people create hybrids... They are looking to create somethin different and unique... Some say it is like we are playing god... In captivity, we are god... We feed them what we want to feed them, keep them at the temperatures we feel they need, provide their water, clean up after them, and WE pick who gets to breed with who... Then we incubate their eggs and rear the young...

I have seen the arguments many times about how the "pure" lines will be tainted but have seen no evidence of this happening even in species that are heavily hibridized like corns, kings, milks, and now, many python species...

I would also like to point out the fact that hybridization does happen in the wild... More often than we might think... In fact, a few studies and DNA samples prove that hybridization is a part of evolution... Entire new species have been spawned from natural hybridization... It is like hitting the fast foward button on the evolutionary DVD player... If hybrids were un-natural, they would not thrive...

I am not against hybrids at all but I do not think every species should be hybridized...

As far as asking, this is a forum. Ask away .
I for one would love to know if they can hybridize. If we believe in adaptation, then surely it has crossed our minds that hognose are distantly related.
Are they so far removed that they can no longer cross? The question crosses my mind all the time.

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Thank you,
Kevin Rhodes

www.spiderhognose.com

http://www.freewebs.com/spreptile/index.htm
http://s212.photobucket.com/albums/cc314/lifesciences/?action=view¤t=09-09hognose001.jpg

Wow Gregg! That was good! And I agree!
Jeff

Gregg I guess we can agree to disagree but as for as your stance saying that you are not against hybrids but you do not think every species should be hybridized does not make sense to me. If it is ok to do it with 1 species then there should be no problem doing it with any specie. And as far as the comment someone made about this being a forum and that asking the question in this forum is ok hello that is why they have a hybrid forum. I checked the forum out and this guy has asked questions on it about other species so why not ask the question to all the others that are hybridizing. Listen I know that people are going to do what they want to do, that is what makes are country what it is, but dont post a question like that and ask people not to post negative comments. If you dont want to here any views other than those that are the same as yours then dont ask them in this forum.

Hope you have a great season. I have several cluthes so far and more are in their pre-lay shed. Hopefully more Mosaics this year. Keeping my fingers crossed

"Listen I know that people are going to do what they want to do, that is what makes are country what it is, but dont post a question like that and ask people not to post negative comments. If you dont want to here any views other than those that are the same as yours then dont ask them in this forum."

Mike this is what you wrote in your last post and I could not agree more with you... Thats why I said in my first post that it would be unrealistic to think this question would not generate different views..

I have nothing but respect for you and your views Mike... Its fine to not agree on everything... What is most important is that we all share a passion for reptiles...

With that being said, I feel that not all species should be hybridized because in my opinion I do not think that all species combinations will produce striking offspring... I highly doubt that a Western/Eastern cross would produce anything really cool... I am picturing a muddy looking Western when I think of the cross...

That is my logic, and I know full well that I do not make sence sometimes... LOL...

I hope you did not take offence to my post dude...

No offense taken dude.

wow this is so touching I want us all to give hugs. Remember a little sarcasm never hurt anyone,hope both of you have a great season see you soon up north. Ted.

"I checked the forum out and this guy has asked questions on it about other species so why not ask the question to all the others that are hybridizing."

I have worded every message in this thread in order to respect others' opinions even if I don't ascribe to them.
It seems you are just a hateful person.

"this guy" asked a question as he always has about something he thought was interesting.

I have always been interested in how closely species are related to each other, and never tried to hide my interest.

Your opinions are valid sir, your delivery paints you as a very unkind person. You could have shared your advanced knowledge about the species to disuade me otherwise, yet you chose the higher road in order to say something mean.
On a side note, Gregg, you were very kind whether you agree or not.

What makes this country great is diversity and the ability to value a differing opinions, not individuals with mean spirited dispositions.

I think you have coachwhip on your shoulder.
Seeing the pic would be cool for all of 2 seconds.
I believe there is a little bit more to all of this other than the wow factor
I recommend you bring honey on your next herping not vinegar.
The honey will get you further.
The locals around here really like an engaging conversation. I hope my advice how to query the information you seek in your future venture helps.
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D.Dedrick

It's not something I would do but it would be interesting to see how they turned out!I've heard of eastern/southern crosses but never seen pics. Jeff

This is the most interesting post I have seen in a while. If this is done or not, it does have people's interest. I hope that if it is successful, it fades unless something fabulous is found.I know that some don't agree with this "hybrid" but if you have a dog that is not a wolf then you are guilty of the same.

While I know this post is about easterns x westerns, it seems more logical to me that due to morphology southerns would breed easier to westerns, even though they do not come near each other in there natural range. Correct me if I am wrong but aren't simus and nasicus closer related to each other than platis?

That being said, does anyone have a picture of a "southwestern," I could see that hybrid making for some interesting looks.

On a side note, I personally am more of a purist, although I do not mind someone crossing 2 separate species. I feel like aside from corns and ball pythons, western hognoses are one of the most "designer snakes" on the market and by breeding any sort of morph you are just as guilty as crossing two species.

How is breeding morphs the same as hybridizing? In order for them to exist were they not found in the wild first?

Scoop up every single nasicus in the wild and tell me how many are high red albino patternless superconda yada yada yada and tell me how often it occurs in the wild.

While I feel some morphs are cool, the point I was making was that as Greg said, when dealing with morphs and hybrids man is playing God. While morphs do occur in the wild, they are not very common, and I can assume very rarely do 2 morphs actually come in contact with each other. How often do you think two albino hoggies have crossed paths in the wild and bred?