Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey guys I wanted to talk about the Jelly mutation for a little bit and had some questions/observations. I remember Zenny saying before that he believed that if you breed a Jelly (T- x PB) to a normal het for nothing Florida king the babies would ideally be split 50/50 het PB and T-. None would be het for both traits... It just hit me while setting up eggs that my jelly female just laid (from a jelly male) that when I did this breeding last year I got ALL JELLYIES from the clutch... This does not make sense if a Jelly truly only passes on one of their genes (pb OR t Negative) I should have gotten PBs T Negs and Jellys not all Jellys (unless the odds were messing with me). should have been 25% PB 25%T Neg P Jelly and i got 100% Jelly. I know Rainer has done this breeding before so I want to see what he thinks as well as Zenny and whoever else has done a breeding like this before. I am leaning towards the fact that the odds might have just been screwey but with 8 eggs and only half of them theoretically being jellys, the other half should have had PBs and T Negs. Again it just hit me that that did not make sense (when they hatched I was like ooooooohhhhhh Jellies! haha and was not thinking wait why did this happen ) I know I have seen Jellies from Rainer's stock that are from Jelly x Jelly but ONLY Jellies from that breeding, never a T Neg or PB (that I can remember) If a Jelly only passes on T Neg or PB then why do you get all Jellys when you breed Jelly x Jelly.

Sorry for the long rant but I wanted to see what you all think.

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.

Not sure what happened really, but I have seen many older threads about how difficult it can sometimes be to tell baby Jellies apart from PB. Is it possible you have both PB & Jellies?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

They are all Jellies for sure... Jellies from a Jelly x Jelly breeding come out much different looking. And even then I should at least get a single T Neg, no? Either way I have eggs from a Jelly x Jelly and will have some soon from a Jelly x T Neg so we will see i guess. It can sometimes be difficult but thier eyes are 100% different so if color or pattern doesn't give it away, to me the eyes do.

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.

Right the eyes should tell. That's interesting for sure, post your results with your other clutches. Post some pics too, if you can?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

The babies are all sold but I have a pic of one of Rainer's Male Jellies from j x j and I'm sure he wouldn't mind me posting it so here it is. Also, I have 8 eggs again from that same girl (she just laid this morning) and another girl that looks to have 7-9 eggs in her from jelly x t neg. The only thing that is making me think that maybe my odds were screwey is that I remember like 2-3 years ago Rainer bred a Jelly x T neg and Jelly x PB and got WEIRDDDDDD STUFF. T Neg lookin stuff with DARK EYES and some with Pink eyes, It was weird for sure. If he has some spare time maybe he will post some pics of those but that just blew both of our minds. This stuff is so fun and exciting with new stuff coming out of breedings that we would expect to throw "normal" looking snakes!

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.

It would help if I posted the pictures wouldn't it haha. Here they are, sorry!

And by the way this is HANDS DOWN MY FAVORITE JELLY EVER!!!

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.

Cool, I was hoping to see the litter that came out all Jelly, but that's cool. This one looks a lot like mine.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I will post pics in 60ish days of the clutch that was laid today and cross your fingers that i have some T Negs and PBs in there!!!

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.

WOW!!!!!!!!! That is gorgeous! That is a smokin picture bro...I love it. I'd like to see more pics. That is an amazing patio, with the lush vegetation behind it. Simply stunning, man!

HAHHAHHA!!!!! Seriously like your patio, but your Jelly IS SMOKIN TOO. The eyes look like a crazy two-tone color. No question why that's your favorite.

Haha thanks Micah!!! That's my driveway with some palms on it haha it is gorgeous though and I KNOW LOOK AT HIS EYE GEEZEEE! I LOVE FL KINGS!

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.

It is not quite certain yet what is going on with the jellies. What we do know is the jelly is created from breeding a PB to a T negative. They share an alalle on a single locus. So the way i look at it is the PB , T neg and Jelly are all one and the same snake. Meaning if you breed a het T neg to a Jelly or PB...they are all compatiple. That part is important for people to wrap their minds around if you are breeding multi hets with either the jelly, PB or T neg gene. For instance, if you breed a PB het for axanthic and hypo to a T negative het for axanthic and hypo. The PB and T neg traits still line up and you get new morphs because the axanthic and hypo ((ghost) wiill line up along with the T neg, PB and Jelly. So the possibilities of working with the Jelly-PB_T neg are endless and will bring a few surprises we have not seen yet.

The first breeding I did from a Jelly to Jelly all the babies came out Jellies. Then the follwoing year I did the same and I got PB , T negs and jellies.

Then there is the pewter which came from a het PB x WS x axanthic to jelly. The Jelly i ued was not het for ANYTHING. NOT axanthic or whitesided. Yet I still got whitesideds, axanthics, PB,Jellies, pewters, Ax WS, PB ws, Jelly ws (?), Pewter, etc.

Whatever this trait does it is great for creating new morphs. But some of the ets breeding just don't fall into a ctaogory i have heard of.
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www.Bluerosy.com

sounds similar to the ultra/amel situation.

>>sounds similar to the ultra/amel situation.

Sounds similar to breeding mice.........LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"Jelly" x "Jelly" giving you all "jellies" is not impossible but i think it is a statistical rarity on paper.

We know that "Jelly" is Homozygous morph expressing two independent genes simultaneously resulting in an intermediate mutation.

Given the fact that there are two "jellies" are used, the gametes (sperm/egg) will carry one of the two genes (PB or T-) in the case where you produce all "Jellies" every fertilization occurred between gametes carrying alternate genes. the only way to produce a jelly.

Additional evidence of the mode of transmission can be found when we observe pairings such as: "Jelly" x Hypo, "Jelly" x Lav, "Jelly" x WS, etc. in all of these cases all babies are normal carries. If an animal is carrying both Amel t- and PB genes it will be a visual "jelly."

Furthermore:

"Jelly" x PB results in "Jellies" and PB

"Jelly" x T- results in "Jellies" and T-

(jelly x het pb or het T- = same results, but these pairings results in normal hets... each of which carry a single gene, hence being "wild type".)

There is variation within the PB mutation as well. I've hatched out PB females with dark eyes and some with ruby eyes. light males and dark males (both with ruby eyes). The PBs i produce look nothing like the originals either, most of mine mature into chocolate brown adults.

Dark male PB hatchling

From what i've seen "Jellies" vary based on pairings.

Original "Jelly" X Original Amel T- line (no outcrossing) results in the lightest "jellies" which makes sense as that phenotype is not very colorful, besides some light yellow-orange hues.

Amel T- x "Jelly"

Original "Jelly" x HET for peanut butter (brown adult female): results in high orange jellies. The brown coloration seems to translate into orange.

Het Pb x "Jelly"

Other "jellies"

Yearling hi-orange "Jelly" Male

"Jelly" Getula ( Goini X Eastern X Floridana): While these look similar in pix some were lighter than others although they were all female

Zenny,

I have a scenario that I want to straighten out. I want your opinion.

If I breed a Jelly Male to a Normal Het for NOTHING florida king and get a female baby. I grow that female baby up and breed her back to the father Jelly male. So we have a baby female from a jelly male breeding to a jelly male. Can I get a jelly from that breeding? Breeding a "Het jelly / het pb / het tneg whatever the female is" to a jelly... can you get a jelly from that breeding?

Thanks!

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Bred Investments Inc.

Yes...

If the female is het Amelanistic T- and is bred to a jelly male the resulting offspring will be Amels, Jellies, and hets for either T- or PB

If the female is het "Peanut Butter" and is bred to a jelly male the resulting offspring will be PBs, Jellies, and hets for either PB or T-

~Z

Zenny, you make it easy to wrap one's head around this, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

~ZF