Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all, I'm back here once again with another inquiry for you fine folk. I doubt any of you remember me, as I've only posted once before when i got my Cali king.

Anyway, I've had him since december, I bought him as a hatchling. He has shed twice since I've had him. So that's actually my first question while it's on my mind, is it normal that he's only shed twice in that time? I thought that him being a baby, he'd be shedding monthly(ish).

My main question is about feeding though. Right now he's on a steady feeding schedule of one (pre-killed) pinky mouse every friday. Lately though, it seems to me that he may still be hungry after only one. When I first got him, he'd take around 10 minutes to eat it, and he's got it down to an art now. From the time he decides it's dead (even though it already is, lol) to the time he's done with it, he's done in like 3-5 minutes now.

He just inhales the thing, I swear. But anyway, I was just wondering if it would be wise to offer him a second mouse. If so, should I do it right after, or split it into 2 feedings a week? I like to handle him too, so I don't really want to feed him twice a week, as I know he needs a day or two to digest, and I wouldn't get to handle him much in that case.

Any input is appreciated, thanks guys!

Yeah you should probably be up to fuzzies maybe even hoppers by now. Go ahead and give him two or three pinkies, but start giving him larger meals also not just more of them. It's good to push them a bit, without going over board. You don't have to feed him every week either. Learn to read your snake. Sometimes they may be ready for more after 5 days, sometimes they may skip a week.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Well that's why I was saying I think he may be still be hungry. The only time he's skipped a week was the first time he shed since I'd had him. He is always ready and rearing to snag the mouse when I feed him. However, I'm not sure that he's ready for a fuzzy yet. That goes back to my other question about shedding. He's only done it twice, and as far as I can tell, he hasn't grown much visibly. I know the food is only supposed to be as big as the biggest part of his body, and a pink still qualifies for that. So I figured I might give him 2, let him grow a bit more, and then see about fuzzies.

Is it possible to over feed him? I mean, if he doesn't want 2, he won't eat 2, right?

Is it possible to over feed him? I mean, if he doesn't want 2, he won't eat 2, right?
Some of my pituophis will over eat if they are given too much at a setting, but none of my kings seem to ever do that. With growing king youngsters I give them as much as they want. I try to schedule (LOL!) that so that the extra uneaten mice go to one of the pituophis.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Food items should be 1 1/2 to 2 times the diameter of the body. Try fuzzy mice and watch him pound them down.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

A young king when fed well enough will shed around every month to 5 weeks(there abouts).

The meals need to be LARGER than the mid-body of the animal, at about one and a HALF times the snakes mid-body width. If the meals don't put a very noticable bulge in it, the items are simply too small. Feed him at least TWO of the smaller ones that are the size of it's mid-body until you get larger prey rodents. When they are allowed to have optimum temps to properly digest at one end of the enclosure ONLY!(mid 80's, and mid 70's on the cool end), they can easily digest TWO of whatever they can fit down their tiny heads.

This is a common thing for many folks to not up the size and amount of prey for their young growing snakes.

I would recommend feeding it enough to see a very noticeable bulge about every 5 days. Young snakes naturally utilize these goos sized meals into GROWTH, and you need to pay close attention to when the meals become too easily swollowed and up the size appropriately. As Jorge already mentioned, they need to be fed enough to grow, not just stay alive for them to grow normally.

Your snake is looking around for more food immediately after it downs the first one, as it is simply not enough.

Here is a good example of the prey size it should be eating in relation to it's body size. The prey needs to be big enough so the snake has to work some to swollow it, but not TOO BIG! so it gives up on it. And with the proper temps, they eat TWO of these very easily and are able to grow extremely well.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Thank you, DMong, that is exactly the type of answer I was looking for. That was very helpful.

My king is about 12-14", I think. I haven't sized him lately, so that's a guesstimate. And he's about as wide around as a sharpie, if you can picture that. One thing that stuck out was that you mentioned the bulge should be noticeable, and although I can see the pinky as it goes down, I lose track of it once it gets about mid-body. I didn't realize that the food should be 1 1/2 times his body width, I kept thinking same size.

Based on the feedback so far, I think I'll try giving him 2 pinkies this week and see how he handles that. If he doesn't have a problem, I'll keep giving him 2 so I can finish off the batch that I have. And next time I go buy more mice, I'll get some fuzzies and see what he does with that.

That sounds like a good plan. Sounds like fuzzies would be perfect!
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Genesis 1:1

You're welcome!

I can guarantee the snake will literally POUND two of them down very easily with zero problems. Two items that are big enough to make the neck scales expand a great deal(as in the pics I showed), and leave a very visible bulge at mid-body are optimal for good growth fed about every 4 to 5 days in young kingsnakes.

Just keep in mind, make sure it has a warm side of the cage in the mid 80's for digestion of these meals, and it will grow like a freakin weed compared to before!.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

1) You can't overfeed a growing kingsnake.

2) feed larger mice ...AS LARGE AS POSSIBLE! AND AS SOON AS POSSIBLE!-THEY NEED THE CALCIUM AND PROTIEN THAT MORE MATURE MICE HAVE.

Pinkies are made up mostly of water and anyone feeding PINKIES to a king after the first month of life needs to understand some very basic husbandry needs. Kings are designed to take in large meals and go through very fast growth spurts. That is what makes them healthier and longer lived captives.

3) if a mouse you are offerring is to large, the snake will simply quit trying to get it down and leave it. So don't worry about feeding something to big. It is only big in your eyes. The king may surprise you! There and then you have learned something.And that is what this hobby should be about..and that is what is too big. But most of the time what happens to entusiatas who are feeding pinkies is their king will get down a much larger mouse than they thought.At that point you will always know it can eat that size and the next meal should be a tad bigger...

And always offer mutiple food items at one sitting. So if you have a 15" snake and pinkies is all you have put in 20. I bet they are all gone when you come back.

If you are worried that the hopper, small mouse, fuzzy ..or whatever.. is to big. Try it and see. It won't hurt the snake. Experimenting is fine and that way you will learn to read your snake. Otherwise there is no "reading" the snake with limitations that "we" put on the snake. Having these pre-conceived limitaions will not allow the snake to do what it wants/needs and the keeper won't learn a thing.
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www.Bluerosy.com

When the snake throws up then we should learn that maybe, snakes can eat more than they should. Good sense should always be used. Don't feed 20 of anything. Just my opinion
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

If that ain't the diagram showing common sense, I don't know what is....LOL!
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Genesis 1:1

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Doug can I borrow that Kingsnake?
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Jimmy Tintle

I didn't know kingsnakes came in 30-30 I need one of those!
I actually would like to get a nice custom stock for my marlin, have it decorated with a stylized desert king (just seems to fit better than a florida or cal king).
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

That's funny...Can you add that to the rack behind my seat in my pick up...I can show the whole world!
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Jimmy Tintle

When the snake throws up then we should learn that maybe, snakes can eat more than they should

Well again we are back on this topic. Yet you guys are afraid to do what i have been doing for years. You don't even let your kings bond with each other and are still moving them back and forth from cage to cage.LOL!

First of all Jorge we are talking about kingsnakes. And not ALL kingsnakes but in this case Calif kings. But in the past it was the same topic but on Florida kings. You guys know I have thousands and work with them for years. i have experimented and no matter what information I give you 3 clowns show up and steer people on the wrong path. That is pathetic and quite frankly WHY so many professional breeders don't post here. Heck even the ONE experienced guy that used to be one of the pioneers of herpetoculture (FR) you guys always attacking him personally when he gives advice.

And it is sooo personal for the 3 of you. It is not about the snakes or advice-it is about you and your arrogance and steadfastness to gain some aclaim with breeding BY POSTING instead of doing it!

This post as well as others...don't try an twist it to an "ANY" snake discussion. Because it is about kingsnakes. And not just "any type" kingsnake. But the posters kingsnake. Not all kings are alike (zonata for example) and you guys know this yet still want to play.

And to the OP who just does not know what to think when stepping into a public forum. My aplogies on ethics-but certain individuals/issues ned a "power wash" occasionally--to help avoid others being misled.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer I'm just trying to be fair and balanced. I said it was my opinion! You have yours! I have learned from experimenting, and that is why I don't keep 10 Florida Kings in a bin and throw in handfulls of food items for them to decide who gets what. I like to know how much each snake eats so I can track any individual who may not be eating due to stress or what ever. It would be a whole lot easier if I did things your way, but I and many others here know that it spells out disaster. You say you have bred thousands and I don't doubt it, but when you say you never had any regurge or not eat enough because cage mates wouldn't let it eat, well...I know different. That is all I am trying to do is present an oppsing view and let the OP choose which one seems more reasonable. Gradually boost the size and or quantity of food, or throw in 20 pinkies! To me it's about providing some sound cautious advice to the newbies.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Jorge,
Look and stay on topic.

The respnse you guys gave to was that if a kingsnake eats to many pinkies it could throw up.

You guys already know all this , but for those being misled I will reply to them..

First is if a kingsnake like a calif king, eastern, Florida/brooks is offerred several pinks it will eat until it is feels like it is full. Then it will stop and any leftover can be removed. They won't eat until the pinks are sticking out it mouth like they fed on a snake larger than themselves.

Second is if the cage/unit does not have a hotspot and is to cold , then yes it will regurge.

These snake eat other snakes in the wild. Their systems are made up for large meals. And if they eat a snake that is larger, then yes, they will regurge . But with small individual mice in a rubbermaid box with adequet heat and if the snake isn't already starved for years,. no, they won't.

finally if a person comes on here andt asks adice on a kingsnake that they are still feeding one or two pinks a week and the snake is 20" or a year or two years old. Do you really think advicing them to feed sparingly is pushing the person in the right direction? They are already to afraid to overfeed. They simply need to be pushed in the right direction and that is feed the snake as much as it will eat or bump up the food item. With my experince a person who has been feeding pinks for 6 months to a year (sometimes to 2 yr old Florida kingssnakes) is reluctant already to press the size of the food item and/or feeding intervals.

Use a little common snese before posting and giving advice.
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www.Bluerosy.com

You should have run for Congress!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

You already made this off topic by making it personal.

Also you are running in circles and diverting off the subject.

You either need to get your estrogen levels checked or are clouding the issues for your own personal agenda. Maybe both?
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www.Bluerosy.com

Why don't you three or four email each other.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"Well again we are back on this topic"

Funny, somehow I knew you would pop in to tell everyone how very "wrong" they are as soon as feeding kings was mentioned..LOL! Are you saying all our kings are unhealthy and small from being way under-fed, and don't breed well?. Because it sure sounds that way to me, or you wouldn't jump in here like you always do to tell me and the others how stupid and wrong we are all the time.

"Yet you guys are afraid to do what i have been doing for years. You don't even let your kings bond with each other and are still moving them back and forth from cage to cage.LOL!"

Afraid??..LOL!!.....what total nonsense Rainer. How about what I do works absolutely fine, and I don't need to pile all mine together to save space and work. Is there something so terribly "wrong" with that? Everybody is "wrong" when it comes to feeding their snakes according to you, but mine are as BIG and healthy as ANYONE'S KINGS HERE!!....I am getting tired of constantly hearing how your "etched in stone" advice is the absolute "holy grail" of all kingsnake husbandry. And you also have the audacity to come in here and call a few people here(me included) "clowns" because we choose not to do just as YOU do?...LMAO!!

Here are a few tid-bits of info for you. My kings are very large and healthy, ALL of them!, so what isn't "broke", doesn't need "fixing"!. See, last time I checked, the forums were about personal opinions on what works for them, and to share what works well, not having one guy(YOU) that gets all worked-up and says everyone is doing it all wrong, when in fact, they have some of the nicest, healthiest kings in the entire hobby. And every single time there is the mere mention of feeding, YOU have the balls to insinuate that everyone but YOU is a "clown" because they might not agree with every single thing that YOU DO. And throw up to 7 kings in one tub to sort it out amongst themselves when tossed a handful of chicks, then go about your daily business. Give me a break dude! Don't get me going on just how well that method has always worked out..LOL!

I don't do it, and I have no REASON to do it..this apparently bothers you horribly for some weird reason, but it shouldn't matter one bit what I do, or anyone else does within good reason.

Now I want the original poster to go do just as I and Jorge advised him to do with the feedings(to the letter), and let's just see how sick, starved, and stunted it is in another 2 or 3 months doing exactly what I told him to do. Yeah, those kings I posted of them stuffing their faces as examples are definitely on their "death beds" now, that's for sure.

Oh!,...and 20 pinkies for a 15 inch king..HAHAHA!!!!....

"i have experimented and no matter what information I give you 3 clowns show up and steer people on the wrong path. That is pathetic and quite frankly WHY so many professional breeders don't post here"

Oh, I see, now it couldn't possibly be the other way around, could it?. Funny you mentioned that, because I know several professional breeder's that don't post here because of people like you that "think" their word is "law", and they get tired of seeing it over and over again every single day. You are the one that always chimes in to say YOUR way is the ONLY "right way" when any feeding issue ever comes up, or just about anything else relating to kings for that matter.

Some very long-time, experienced people here will give advice to someone what works just fine to keep them healthy, plump, and happy, and breeding without any issues at all, but YOU come in here and have the nerve to say what "clowns" they are when in FACT they have some of the nicest, healthiest kings around. Let me tell you something bro, my snakes are HUGE, and they didn't get that way from being starved!, I have posted many pics in the past of my snakes that PROVE that is indeed the case,....and the other so-called "clowns" snake's look perfectly fine and healthy to me too, and are breeding just fine as we speak, so what the hell is so "WRONG" about that??........nothing!,...that's what. Absolutely NOTHING!

THAT! is why so many people I know don't post here anymore. You have it all totally ass-backwards there bud. They are sick of all the nonsense and bickering from pompous individuals such as yourself. Big Tattoo was spot-on with the "Ivory Tower" post he made too. Just about every one of your posts seem to have that kind of "flavor".

"Heck even the ONE experienced guy that used to be one of the pioneers of herpetoculture (FR) you guys always attacking him personally when he gives advice"

Oh yeah, the "ONE" experienced guy in the entire hobby...besides you of course...right?..LOL!

"And it is sooo personal for the 3 of you. It is not about the snakes or advice-it is about you and your arrogance and steadfastness to gain some aclaim with breeding BY POSTING instead of doing it!"

Now if THAT isn't pure irony and the most comical thing I have ever heard, I don't know what is man. YOU of all people claiming other's are arrogant and steadfast??..HAHA!!HAHA!!HAHA!!!!!

"This post as well as others...don't try an twist it to an "ANY" snake discussion. Because it is about kingsnakes. And not just "any type" kingsnake. But the posters kingsnake. Not all kings are alike (zonata for example) and you guys know this yet still want to play"

That's right, and the guys king will grow like there's no tomorrow doing just as I and the other's already said in our previous posts....guaranteed!.

"And to the OP who just does not know what to think when stepping into a public forum. My aplogies on ethics-but certain individuals/issues ned a "power wash" occasionally--to help avoid others being misled"

Yes, to the OP, "don't be misled by certain individuals".

I couldn't have said it better.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

FYI....
I did not even read your post......Too much hot air between you three...Waste of time......
LOL....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I think Im gonna frame it, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

And if Doug took a right turn it would break your nose.......J/K.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"E S" Lassiter!

Who cares what you think!
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

>>"E S" Lassiter!
>>Who cares what you think!

Correct......Who cares what I think....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I have been breeding kingsnakes and others for over 30 years and I really don't listen to people who think they know everything. I respect FR and I listen but I still take it all with speculation. I still do what I think is best and what works for me. Even FR didn't keep his kingsnakes together, at least not in the early 80's when I saw them. This is why I almost never post here.

>>I have been breeding kingsnakes and others for over 30 years and I really don't listen to people who think they know everything. I respect FR and I listen but I still take it all with speculation. I still do what I think is best and what works for me. Even FR didn't keep his kingsnakes together, at least not in the early 80's when I saw them. This is why I almost never post here.

Yep....
Thanks for chiming in Don.....
I always try to say...."Do what works for you"
I too, take all the bits of information from everyone and apply what I think works well along with some other techniques I think of all by myself.....Imagine that....thinking for yourself and not just listening to someone else......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I definitely know what you mean Don..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

Don,
Getting a stick and stuffing hotdogs down a snake will make it healthy and work to.

Eeven though this topic had NOTHING to do with bonding think about this.

If a snake is regulated to living in an plastic empty box by itself for its entire life. would "you" (being the snake) , rather have at least one natural thing going on in that box? Wouldn't it be better to keep pairs or multiple snakes together than just one in an empty box FOR LIFE with shavings and plastic? It is a good thing a snake cannot reason out it dismal existence and by adding multiple snakes "bonding" it has at least one natural element that it does in nature. And they do seem to like it as far as I can tell from the single specimens i kept. Bonded kingsnakes living together just do better in habit and breeding. That is especially true when your snake stress out when introduced and remeoved due to the threat of one eating the other during breeding season WHEN YOU decdide to put them together.

Snakes bond in nature. And in my collection the ones who are bonded seem less nervouse than the ones kept by themselves. Also introducing non-bonded snakes cause more stress.

But again, this topic was on feeding larger prey and more frequent meals. Something I know that you do unless it takes you 3-4 years to raise up neonate kingsnakes-which i doubt.

As far as feeding muttiple mice and letting the snake take its 'fill' i am sure that is something you do as well.

Don, next time you post don't let the 3 amigos sway you so much. They are a little upset that i posted something different from their opinion. This thread had to do with the OP original request on feeding. The bonding was just a attempt to make them seem more accomplished and make me appear as an irresponsible herpetoculturist. LOL! But the truth is I do it that way and it seems more natural. But if you want to keep snakes solated and stick hotdogs down their throat they will still be healthy and breed-

I prefer to make it as natural as possible by giving heat choices as far apart as possible,also.. Allow snakes to eat when they want AND to BOND with mutiple animals year round so they don't stress during breeding season. I think my approach is better than what others have been doing since the 70's.
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www.Bluerosy.com

all my getula have been kept in pairs all year round for 4 years now with zero problems.

I had a pair escape recently and found them both coiled up together in the same hiding spot on a shelf. I guess they bonded

Hey Joe! How you been? Listen, my snakes must have bonded within just minutes of introducing them, cause the male followed the female all over the cage like a heat seeking missle! I bet if she would have escaped, he would have followed her right out, and stuck to her like glue also.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

good point...... they may not both use the same free hiding spot next time they escape..... but hopefully no next time....

it was pretty strange though, the shelf was 4 feet off the ground, and had they not knocked down a few choice items I may not have noticed them at all, at that time....

Joe glad you did find them regardless of what it proves. What were they, just out of curiousity?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

my very best splendida, lol, the black and white male and the nearly completely speckled female.

I don't think one observation proves anything, I'm just putting it out there.

When I offer that I keep my kings together, I'm not suggesting anyone else do it. I'm just saying that I do it, and don't have any problems because of it.

I didn't either untill one day. After you have it happen once, it's hard to find the nerve to try it again.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>I didn't either untill one day. After you have it happen once, it's hard to find the nerve to try it again.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> Jorge Sierra
>>
>>My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Could be another explanation for your experience as well? I certainly wouldn't want to draw any conclusions from one event

>>Could be another explanation for your experience as well? I certainly wouldn't want to draw any conclusions from one event

Good point! This is how debates should be conducted by the way, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>Good point! This is how debates should be conducted by the way, lol.

You mean, in your opinion, that is! lol

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Watch out Jorge.....Joe's and OLD pro at this.....hehe
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Facts are facts Jorge. And the fact is you can come by and see my collection any time and witness what i am doing. Once you do it will make you a bleiver.

One instance of a king of yours eating another (which you seem hardly able to remember the details) could have been a lot of things. Like starving snakes. OR not bonded properly combined with smell from a roedent, ..ect etc.

when peoiple tell me that a snake does something unusual- Like stops feeding, regurges, dies , ect....it is hard for me to come to a conclusion of WHAt really happened unless I see the whole situation. If I do, then i can usually tell what caused the problem. In those cases i can determine rather quickly what the culprit was. In you own admission you don't even recall the details.

People like me are keeping kings together for years with not a single specimen cannibalizing. With my collection alone it is numbered in the thousands. How can it be that your one time experiece (which may not be "experince" from a proper husbandry perpective) set you back with all this data ?
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www.Bluerosy.com

rainer look your talking to the wrong person. I have seen first hand the results of your group experiments, remember? As for the king I had years ago that ate it's cage mate, I siad they had been together for a long time prior (enough time to bond), and it was not starving. Don has just given 3 example of a snake eating it's mate. My point is and always was, if it can happen to me and people like Don and others, it can happen to Newbies who ask for advice.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I'm sure some snakes bond but I would rather not take the chance on kings. They get to bond every breeding season and I have lost a few males and I never feed them together. I have had clutches of brooks eat each other and they are from the same clutch. I also feed once a week sometimes twice. I would love to keep snakes as close to nature as possible but I don't have the room.

I have had clutches of brooks eat each other and they are from the same clutch

Don,
I know you have not read all the posts to date. But i would never reccomend putting neonates together as they do eat each other. But when they get up to mouse size 9say 20" I start the bonding process.

Little floridana are just to nervous and strike and every movement putting them into the feeding mode.

I also think that since the early days and the word "KING"snake. people assume that they are cannibals. But there is nothing further from the truth. I keep all of mine in groups and they feed and share the food. Most of the time food is left over and it is removed. None overeat and regurge.

I do this on a daily basis for years. Others that have done the bonding process and keep them together year round are much happeier and it takes the guess work out of when a female is ovulating. This you are not taking chances on missing that "window' of fertilization.

I have welcomed people on this forum to come over and see my collection and report back here what they saw (feeding and all) but so far none of the naysayers have taken me up on it.

Another thing to consider with cannibalsim. It can happen with ANy starving snake. I hear cornsakes eat each other. Even humans when pused to that point.

So well fed kings and them living coimmunally (peacfully) and sharing thawed out frozen rodents is a daily, monthly year round thing here. It has been going on for years and anyone that does not beleive, or are afraid to try it temselves, should just visit and check it out themselves. i can show them literally thousands of the floridana together and sharing food.

I would hope that settles it because it seems that most just don't belive what i am saying is true..(which is ludicrous and funny to me at the same time). There is no refuting what I am doing and how comnunal these kings are. I have the proof and been living it daily for years.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I have seen cornsnakes eat each other but it is usually when they smell food on another snake. I know you try to keep snakes as close to nature as possible but I think most kingsnakes in the wild are not overfed and are opportunistic feeders and feed on just about anything they come close to even other snakes like themselves. Like I said I do what I think works best for me and I do not tell people how to do it just how I do it.

Like I said I do what I think works best for me and I do not tell people how to do it just how I do it.

Exactly. that is why when i post how I do things I should not get ridiculed. But I think that part slipped by you.

BTW snake like kings are found together in the wild all the time. If they ate each other there would be none.
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www.Bluerosy.com

another excellent counter point, considering I've seen this in the field well into October, with multiple kings (calligaster and getula) sharing the same cover boards in the field.

Rainer one of the things that sets me off many times when I read your posts, is that you don't just say this is my opinion. You come across like your way is the best and only way. Also you tell newbies to throw 20 pinkies in the snake cage and see what happens. Well I can tell you all twenty probably won't get eaten, and many of the pinks may go to waste. I don't know how smart it is to keep refreezing them and using them again? But maybe it more in the way you present your point, like you are the floridana King and all must bow to you. I have been keeping and breeding sankes for over 20 years myself. I have kept Kings together and they did eat each other. They were not starving imo. But what happens when life crisis arises? Maybe illness or a death in the family? Things get a little hectic, and maybe the snakes have to go a week or two with out food? Will they start looking at each other with hungry eyes then? Also how can you know if a snake has skipped a few meals, and maybe stressing for some reason. In large groups it's very hard to catch these little clues before the snakes start getting seriously ill. Also breeding records! How can you know what snakes actually bred? What if you get a new morph pop out of a bin? You might know which female laid the egg, but good luck figuring out which male did the job. All these are very good reasons not to keep snakes in large groups, and feeding them together is just asking for trouble. Again if you loose a snake or two from thousands, maybe you won't cry over it, but a newbie who just has one or two pairs, it would be pretty harsh. I have seen you many times tell newbies what to do. I always try to say this is my opinion, from experience and I err on the side of caution! I have done some of the things you preach, and it didn't go so well for me. I have seen two snakes go after the same mouse and saw one start to swallow the others head before I intervened. So have others here, that is why some of us go bizerk when you give newbies advice like that. Remeber not everyone has thousands of snakes.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I totally agree with your answer Jorge.

>>I totally agree with your answer Jorge.

Thanks Don, Im in good company then. Maybe we can make you part of the three, I mean four Amigos, lol. By the way the Snow female I got from you is doing fantastic, and she is super calm!

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

you tell newbies to throw 20 pinkies in the snake cage and see what happens

ahh, you'r taking things out of context.

What the situation was is that poster had been feeding pinks to his snake its whole life. Everybody agreed he should move the food size items up. My response was to getting rid of the pinkies by leaving sevral in the cage until the snake had its fill. then remove the rest. that way the OP can utilize the pinks and move up to the larger items faster. I never reccomended he continually feed large number of pinkies on a regular basis. But instead to feed off the remaining pinks to a 20" long snake.

but then the whole regurge debacle started from you guys by saying if you overfeed the snake it will regurge. Which is alo not true. Kings (and especially florida kings) will eat as much as they want and leave what they don't. they won't overfeed and stuff themselves to the point of regurging uinless it is a larger snake that they are feeding on and can't stop. this does not happen with small indivdual mice.Especially pinkies to a snake that can eat adult mice.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I've heard of like snakes under the same board but how many could have been there to begin with. I know during hibernation we see all kinds of different snakes in the same place together. I just know in my experience, I've lost 3 cal kings in the last 15 years, all males, that the females have eaten after breeding. These girls are huge and well fed. They do breed and then if you're not there to take the males out right away it's too late.

I think you hit it on the head Don. Your statement that you do what works for you and you don't tell others what to do. Great advice that we could all learn from as we keep these critters. Having said that I will add that I Lived in Calif. for the first 33 years of my life and raped and pillaged with the best of them, Retes included. Back then we all kept Kings together. I caught a significant number of Kings that had eaten recently and as they traveled in Bags they usually regurged. Never saw another King regurged but it doesn't mean that. Saw plenty of other snakes along with Sceloporous and Uta lizards and rodents. But it seemed more dependent on where I caught them. Around Orange County most had rodents (voles,mice,one even had a Bat). In the desert mostly lizards. Since I have been here in Texas I have noticed that food intake seems to proportional to draught conditions. I don't keep what I find now but spend more time (what little I have!!!) observing stuff in the wild. When there is abundant rain the rodents go beserk and the snakes (mostly atrox) are fat. I'm no expert but it doesn't take a Rocket Scientist to notice. By the way--we all change over time. Back then I kept my Kings together. In fact all snakes that i Kept were in cages of multiples. From '64 to '73 i sold most everything I caught. Now all my snakes occupy their own cages and I don't even pick up what I find. I can be satisfied just looking. From 1964 to 1972 I spent some time with FR, going out collecting, he was at my house, I was at his, we even did a little Falconry together. Back then he kept most everything in cages with other stuff. In fact he had a gravid Banded Gecko in the same cage with a Western Diamondback we brought back from Arizona. He can tell you what the result of that co-habitation was all about.

Pat I'm not trying to be a pest, but I think we would have to have an in depth study to learn why they are found together under the same boards. I doubt very seriously they are bonding? I don't think any experienced herper would have the courage to keep Mole kings in the same cage with Chain Kings. I know I wouldn't. My point is many times we see something and come to a conclusion that fits our thinking, but may not always be what is actually happening?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

It's a well documented behavior. It's been observed by many many folks and published in more a few books. There's an explanation for everything, even if we may not know what that explanation is.

>>It's a well documented behavior. It's been observed by many many folks and published in more a few books. There's an explanation for everything, even if we may not know what that explanation is.

You got my attention! What is the explanation?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

lol... no idear, I don't understand the behavior entirely, just sharing experiences.

Oh, and I "think" it's only documented in splendida/calligaster and holbrooki/calligaster. I'm not sure if anyone has observed the same with chain kings and calligaster. I might be hesitant to test that one as well

>>lol... no idear, I don't understand the behavior entirely, just sharing experiences.
>>
>>Oh, and I "think" it's only documented in splendida/calligaster and holbrooki/calligaster. I'm not sure if anyone has observed the same with chain kings and calligaster. I might be hesitant to test that one as well

Let me add to this, the observations include multiple numbers of both species (either o, or both) under the same cover objects. For example I've seen two calligaster and a Splendida, or two splendida and a calligaster. Unfortunately never more than three kings under the same board for me, but others have seen more.

Jorge, I don't think you are/ever were a pest. My post didn't say anything about Bonding nor flipping multiples under boards. My intent in even responding was to give Don Kudos for his statement and to point out that when you do this thing we do over time there may be a change in the way we do things. When I was keeping snakes from 1964 to 1972 I did everything that we know is wrong now. And because I followed FR's example I managed to have Cal. Kings Breed for me. Back then I never used newspaper nor shavings as substrate,I had no idea what Brumation was and it didn't seem necessary, and I never fed f/t items. Now, I use Aspen shavings, I keep stuff one to a container, and I feed exclusively f/t. The techniques I use work for me. Does everyone need to follow my example??? Heck no!!! Keep 'em well fed and you may never have a problem But decide how you want to gamble.

Pat G-C

>>Jorge, I don't think you are/ever were a pest. My post didn't say anything about Bonding nor flipping multiples under boards. My intent in even responding was to give Don Kudos for his statement and to point out that when you do this thing we do over time there may be a change in the way we do things. When I was keeping snakes from 1964 to 1972 I did everything that we know is wrong now. And because I followed FR's example I managed to have Cal. Kings Breed for me. Back then I never used newspaper nor shavings as substrate,I had no idea what Brumation was and it didn't seem necessary, and I never fed f/t items. Now, I use Aspen shavings, I keep stuff one to a container, and I feed exclusively f/t. The techniques I use work for me. Does everyone need to follow my example??? Heck no!!! Keep 'em well fed and you may never have a problem But decide how you want to gamble.
>>
>>Pat G-C
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Thanks for the kind words, and I see your point!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Read your snake indeed! Good advice! I keep a chart of who ate what when and it is often all over the map, but everybody is healthy and happy.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I feed all my baby cali kings 1 pinky every 3-5 days, when they hit 20" in length I'm usually giving them 3 large pinkies every 4 days. They all pretty much shed once a month.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

Feed your snake when it's hungry and feed it until it's full.....
Figure out when that is and what limit that is.....Years of trial and error and you will find out like many of us have......

It's SIMPLE............Calkings are almost indestructible.......
As are most getula..........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Alright, guys. The fighting needs to stop. I understand you 4 have some previous rivalry going on, but this is not the place to do it. That is no way to greet a new member, and if that's what I have to look forward to any time I have a question, then I may have to take my inquiries elsewhere. I appreciate everyone's input EQUALLY. I was never looking for the "right" answer, I was looking for opinions based on personal experience, and that's what it was until someone made a personal assault.

I said way back up top that I am going to go with the idea of 2 pinkies, then working up to fuzzies, and that was pretty much the end of the topic. I don't know why it even continued to go further.

I really don't care about who has the superior snake, or who results did what, I just wanted a collective opinion. And I got that. I trust that each method mentioned has indeed worked for the respective person, and that's fine. But please, I've been getting email notifications nonstop about replies to this thread, and it's been nothing but drama since this evening.

Thank you all again for your input, and I look forward to a more civilized discussion next time I post a topic. For those of you interested, I will be posting pics of my Cali king soon. I think you all will enjoy him, as he has a less common design than most cal kings I've seen, which is also one of the reasons I was so attracted to buying him. Hope everyone has a good evening.

The refreshing voice of reason from the newbie OP. Well said and I enjoyed you post. Thanks.

I think your plan is well thought out for you and shows caution and your care for your snake. I might suggest the first feeding try 2 pinks. Then the next try 3 and the next try 4. This is a good cautious approach since your young snake is not yet used to larger meals. This method serves two purposes;

1 it slowly prepares your snake for the larger meals it should be eating for excellent growth while giving you the experience to learn and grow your knowledge base on how you want to care for your snake.

2 by the time you run out of pinkies you will have a better idea of how many fuzzies you should offer. For example if your king won't eat more than 4 pinkies then 2 fuzzies would be adequate. If it eats 5 or more you might want to offer 3 fuzzies.

Best of luck and I look forward to seeing some pics.
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BigT
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. The ignorant can be taught, stupidity is beyond our control.
1.2 P. m. melanoleucus B/W N. J. Northern Pines
1.2 P. d. deppei Mexican Pines
2.2 P. l. lineaticollis Linis or Lined Pines
1.2 P. m. lodingi Black Pines
0.3 P. c. sayi red bulls
1.1 Drymarchon melenurus Blacktail Cribo
1.2 D. corais Yellowtail Cribos
1.2 M. s. cheynei Jungle Carpet
2.6 L. p. pyromelana Arizona Mt. Kings
1.1 L. g. californiae B/W Cali kings
0.0.3 M. f. flagellum Eastern Coachwhips
1.2 G. m. bottegoi Western Plated lizards

But please, I've been getting email notifications nonstop about replies to this thread, and it's been nothing but drama since this evening.

Just turn off your email alert function and it will stop bothering you.

I know mine is turned off.
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www.Bluerosy.com

... that was hardly the point, bluerosy.

I purposely turn them on because I wanted to follow what people thought about my question from my mobile as they happened, not come on here every hour or so to see if someone replied. Generally when somebody asks a question, they don't expect their thread to turn into a drama fest. So bearing that in mind, why would I turn my notifications off if I wasn't anticipating an argument?

That extra comment wasn't necessary, I made my point quite clear. I wouldn't care if I hadn't been getting emails, I still would've eventually gotten back on to see the argument. I just was supporting my own request to stop the fighting.

I think you miss my poiint because you are new here.

I posted my opinion and the same 3 people who troll my posts make disrespectful comments and post a gun cartoon. Normally (undeeservedly) I let it go. Just not this time.

This forum has becaome more of a click mentality or gang up approach.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I may have missed some posts, but there was only one person throwing out names like arrogant, Clowns, and estrogen levels! I probably shouldn't have said you should run for Congress, but I bet you would be good at it, just saying To the OP, whenever you have passionate people disagreeing on the subject they are so passionate about, things can get a little heated. Like it or not that's how things work. I always try not to offend anyone, and engage the subject at hand, but I too am only human. This debate was actually much calmer than most. Most don't see the light of day, and get deleted by Moderators. At least you can be sure you came to a place where the people really love their hobby.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I am going to disagree with Jorge on that.

These posts have nothing to do with the snakes and disagreeing.
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www.Bluerosy.com