Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think Don Shores hit the jackpot answer when not bonding snakes and the risks that follow when introducing breeders to each other that are not housed together year round.

Don Shores:
I've lost 3 cal kings in the last 15 years, all males, that the females have eaten after breeding. These girls are huge and well fed. They do breed and then if you're not there to take the males out right away it's too late.

This is why one should house the kings together. i don't know what else makes more sense.

also to make a correction to some that misunderstand the bonding process. Just because you put a male and female into a cage together during breeding season and they breed does not mean they are bonded.

It is safe to bond kings druring brumation when temsp are low. I usually start this when my Florida kings reach 20" ...or are feeding on small adult mice. After that it is a cakewalk. No cannibalism. Which is unlike what I see some of the old tried and true methods don't not work.

Also when you do place a bonded snake in with a another that it is not bonded. they do become nervous and do not recognize the other. In those cases the usual precautions should be made. Just because one pair is bonded with each other does not mean they are bonded with others in the units right next to theirs.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I used to have a large male Cal king that would immediately grab the female and start constricting. Then he would stop, think for a moment, and mount.

My question about bonding is why even bother since there is always a risk when keeping getula together. Since getula will typically breed right in front of you within 5-10 min of being introduced, if the female is receptive, why not just wait for them to finish and separate.
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Rick Staub

Since getula will typically breed right in front of you within 5-10 min of being introduced, if the female is receptive, why not just wait for them to finish and separate.

That's why I wait til the kids around when I put them together...They get a kick out of the male and female playing tag, wrestling and the male always pinning the female for a 3 count....While I'm cleaning cages and feeding...
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Jimmy Tintle

My question about bonding is why even bother since there is always a risk when keeping getula together. Since getula will typically breed right in front of you within 5-10 min of being introduced, if the female is receptive, why not just wait for them to finish and separate.

Because it takes the guess work out of that certain 'window" when the snake breed. Also it eliminates and concrsn of leaving a pair together overnight. removal, putting them back and forth ect. Then you still might miss that window on second or third clucthes. I have some snakes that breed very early (late winer0 and some that breed during spring and some that do not want to go until summer.

I have had clutches in Jan, feb , march with bonded kings. I have produced 3 clucthes per year from florida kimgs. So by taking the guess work out of when the snakes breed it makes it easier for someone who is interested in breeding.

So the question is why bother with removal and relacement of the kings when bonded snakes just takes any guess work out of the equation. Plus the snake do just fine. Just don't expect a pair to be bonded if they breed and that is the first time you put them together. bonding is a process. The snake get to kow each other. And that should not be attemped during breeding season.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I keep mine together in pairs or trios throughout brumation & breeding season, but I do separate for feeding and in the Summer/Fall when no breeding is going on........
I never keep more than one male together in an enclosure. It seems the females get along well together and the males not so much.......I haven't had a snake get killed by another since 2005. But I believe my husbandry has improved greatly since then.

Rainer,
You state that it is necessary to always keep them together when it is not.
It is just an optional husbandry technique.
It works for you.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Rainer,
You state that it is necessary to always keep them together when it is not.
It is just an optional husbandry technique.
It works for you.

It is neccessary if the breeding pair can eat each other, no? if not then i guess take your chances. Either that (as others have stated) keep a close eye on them.

I think for BREEDING and if you WANT to produce more clucthes per year. It certainly takes the guess work out.

So as far as neccessary keeping techniques...like i stated before..you could take a stick and shove hot dogs down their throats and that will suffice for neccessary as feeding well. I mean *cough* as long as they are healthy, right?

So "neccessary' is open to interpretation and what neccessary is and valid are two different point. I say do what works best for the snakes and not the keeper..
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www.Bluerosy.com

That is what I did.

I had a big pair of Cal kings that would hang out all Winter together in a 4ft x 2ft plywood box. There were 2 other younger Cals in there too, but these two would pile up on one another for much of the Winter.

They would happily stay together all Spring. In Summer I noticed the female was a tad agitated about being together, so each went into its own cage. Come Winter, back in the plywood box they went with the others.

I kept them for about 15yrs then gave them away. She laid each yr of her adult life with perfect hatches. I think the over-wintering together is great for fertility. I also think separation is great as long as re-introduction is done in Winter well before Spring.
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Mark

I also think separation is great as long as re-introduction is done in Winter well before Spring

exactly!

..and I think this is a point i make that people here keep missing.
And that is HOW to properly bond. Even though i repeated it sevral times it gets missed every time and another post comes up about introduction at different times of the year. If everyone took this simople recipe of introducing their kings during brumation AND when the snakes are yet young (like 20" for Florida kings- smaller for cal kings and other spp. They won't have any problems and the snakes will even eat in turn to a hill of F/T food left in the cage.

Bonding is not putting your snake together at any time. It should start in during winter brumation and then left together year round 9remove the makle during egg laying) and then after egg laying feed the female as many mice as she will eat and reintroduce the male .

there is a SIMPLE process and if followed the snakes will bond and they will be fine. Do it differently and disaster may occur as bonding has not taken place yet. that is why it's called Boooooonding!

Psychology, Animal Behavior . to establish a bonding.

usually emphasizes the strong and enduring quality of affection, whereas tie may refer more especially to duty, obligation, or responsibility

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www.Bluerosy.com

All you need to do is manually palpate the female to determine when she is ripe. Follicles in a getula are very easy to feel. No guess work involved.
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Rick Staub

All you need to do is manually palpate the female to determine when she is ripe. Follicles in a getula are very easy to feel. No guess work involved.

yes that is true. But most people don't know how to feel for that. Then you might also have some surprise clucthes during winter-which you never have known about since i doubt you feel the snakes year round. Do you?

Isn't is just easier to bond the snakes and let them do there thing? Unless you are so convinced it won't work and you think they will eat each other. Then i guess palpitating them and missing ovulation and clucthes during the rest of the year is okay? So lets just US breed the snakes. Don't let them breed when they want (I am being facious)..Don't let them breed to each other when they want , right? Do you really think this is the right answer???

IMO if you are that afriad to try something new and continue to do it ONE WAY. then fine. Just think about it though. The bonding does work for snake eaters. And Florida kings are known to be the REAL DEAL snake feeders in the wild. So if it works for these getula. Then it stands to rason other kings are even less likely to cannibalism.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Not afraid to try something new. Just do not see that it is absolutely necessary. Plus, whether bonded or not, there is always a risk with getula that one will eat its cage mate.
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Rick Staub

Not afraid to try something new. Just do not see that it is absolutely necessary. Plus, whether bonded or not, there is always a risk with getula that one will eat its cage mate.

Then try it first.

Also you never answered if it is more fesable to feel for follicles on a female year round? And I know why you didn't answer. Because it is not feesable nor realitic to do that feeling up year round. So what happens is you miss the opportunity (or window) to know when your females are actually ovulating.

You also know that in captivity kings fed on an increased diet the females will ovulate sevral more times then they ever would in the wild. By not feeing for thoses follicles the rest of the year those females still go through their natural body functions as if they laid eggs..the only difference is without the males sperm for fertilization of those eggs.
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www.Bluerosy.com

All I have are Cal kings which will double clutch but I have never gotten a third. Also never had a clutch laid past August so feeling up my snakes in the winter for follicles really is not necessary. If I miss a chance to breed then it is likely for the best cause the season here is over and they are going to be cooled soon.

Observation is the key to successful herpetoculture. I can usually tell by looking at my kings or following how strong their feeding response is whether they are cycling. I do not need to keep them together to avoid missing a cycle. If I miss it then big deal. I would rather miss it then lose an animal because I tried to house it with a mate. I just do not see it as a big deal. If it works for you then great. For me it is a much greater hassle to house 2 animals together than it is to stand there for 10 minutes while they copulate. Further I usually service multiple females with a male and I certainly am not going to house 3 or more snakes together.
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Rick Staub

Observation is the key to successful herpetoculture.

But you have only observed one way.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Now you are grasping and making assumptions. I keep boas too which are very difficult to palpate for follicles or determine when they are cycling so I keep pairs together for quite a bit of the season and during the cool down. No thanks. Getula are simplistic and easy by comparison. Sell it somewhere else.

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Rick Staub

Now you are grasping and making assumptions. I keep boas too which are very difficult to palpate for follicles or determine when they are cycling so I keep pairs together for quite a bit of the season and during the cool down. No thanks. Getula are simplistic and easy by comparison. Sell it somewhere else.

yes boas and pythons are very different. But i am talking about kings and particulary easern getula.

Question. With all the field work you have done with zonata. How ofetn do you find them in groups in the exposed crevices and rocks you seek during spring? What is the most you have seen under a large slab or crevice? And don't those rocks lead into tunnles undergrowund tunnles when it gets to hot? Do you think they are go their seprate ways? Or do they sit amonst each other?

also do the females that are gravid return to the same rock outcrops after laying in the woods? Do you see those same females together with the same comunal zonata year after year?
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Not afraid to try something new. Just do not see that it is absolutely necessary. Plus, whether bonded or not, there is always a risk with getula that one will eat its cage mate.
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>>Rick Staub

Not in Rainers world, lol. He can make the wind stand still, and the kings snakes line up in single file, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

"What the heck's going on out there? Did somebody say something about eating?!!!!!!!!!"

The answer is simple! When you have thousands of snakes, you may be tempted to take risks that would save you time and space!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

The answer is simple! When you have thousands of snakes, you may be tempted to take risks that would save you time and space!

LOL! my snakes are worth to much for that.

maybe for someone breeding $50. snakes. But not me. And you know that Jorge. You guys make fun of those high priced floridana all the time.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>The answer is simple! When you have thousands of snakes, you may be tempted to take risks that would save you time and space!
>>
>>LOL! my snakes are worth to much for that.
>>
>>maybe for someone breeding $50. snakes. But not me. And you know that Jorge. You guys make fun of those high priced floridana all the time.
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>>www.Bluerosy.com
>>

Rainer I didn't even understand this answer? I am being honest! If I had thousands of snakes, I may be tempted to take certain risks if it would make my work easier and cut out hours of tedious tasks. I might even convince myself I was doing it for the sake of the snakes, because they are better off this way!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Rainer I didn't even understand this answer? I am being honest! If I had thousands of snakes, I may be tempted to take certain risks if it would make my work easier and cut out hours of tedious tasks. I might even convince myself I was doing it for the sake of the snakes, because they are better off this way!

jorge,

A few years ago i was just like you. Well maybe 20 years ago. but anyway.

listen. take 1.2 florida kings that are sub-adults. bond them by putting them together during brumation. then keep them together year round except when the females lay.

and feed them well!!!!!!!!!!!!

you will never go back to the old way.

You will like the results. i gurantee it!
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www.Bluerosy.com

This is a GREAT example of why this forum is lacking credibility.

My opinion, and many others, but sorry, snakes do not bond. Saying they " bond " makes the act of throwing a ton of snakes together sound not so bad, at the first second. Then, the second second comes in, and people scratch their heads. Then reality sets in about the fact they are kings.

No one I know that knows a lot about snakes actually believes it, or thinks it is a good idea. Biologists, breeders with great reputations, breeders with degrees in biology, etc.. These are people with actual experience.

The thing about snakes living communally is a farce, and here is why. I am not actually speaking about two at a time, which is still tricky to say the least, but multitudes. The fact that some would think that snakes are capable of social behaviour is at first, IMO, attractive, but not factual. Bonding is social behaviour. Snakes have the instinct to live separately. Remember, snakes found in the wild together are usually found both breeding and under a safe habitat/winter den. It is that safe habitat that is the reason they are there.

If there is a safe habitat in an area where many snakes are, they will naturally all use it, and being found at times, one would think that they would be sharing, so to say. Fact is, they are just sharing the same habitat, as their INSTINCT is showing them to. Their instinct is telling them to be in a safe place. Remember, they are acting out to survive.

If snakes are seeming to be ok living with one another in captivity in a cage, that means that that the cage is satisfying the right circumstances at that particular moment. That is why the cases of a few being kept together or so seem to support this. Once those circumstances are met with changing conditions, then accidents happen. They do happen. The proof is there, so much that even arguing about it is immature, to say the least. It is comparable to a drug addict, as he takes a hit off of a crack pipe, that he won't be affected physically by the hit. Chemically, he will be affected, no matter what. Same with kings. They are kings because they EAT other snakes and LOVE IT! They are always capable of doing so. You can't take that out of them, what is natural instinct.

Also, if snakes bonded, there would be only one mate between two snakes of the opposite sex. Sorry, does not happen.

So, as breeders view viewpoints about all of this so-called bonding, as they are tired of this misinformation, they are left to conclude that:

People who spout this are maybe desiring others to look up to them and they crave attention. They are in the habit of saying things so against the grain, to get attention. This is just a hypothesis.

They simply believe that the truth is not there. Another hypothesis.

If indeed, these multitudes of snakes were actually housed together:

1. What size plastic tub is big enough to house a multitude of bonding snakes? There is none. How clean can these cages be? Tons of snakes crawling thru tons of poop, and into the water dish, is disgusting. Guess what that leads to? Thats right boys and girls...sickness and sickness being spread!

2. Would this type of housing be constituted as hoarding/animal cruelty?

And to end this, is there really any actual scientific evidence supporing bonding? Nope. Finding snakes, a few kings, under a board or rock in a field out somewhere is not enough evidence.

Is there actually scientific evidence that shows kings eat other snakes? Yep!! Hence the name.

So, in all, my opinion, and many others, who don't even want to type out anything on this forum and have to deal with the childish bickering. This will be my only post as well, as I have said all I am going to say.
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Genesis 1:1

This will be my only post as well, as I have said all I am going to say.

Thanks! That is the only part of your post that is logical.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Will somebody please give him a hug and tell him he is right. Then we can go back to feeding debates. Hehe...

Will somebody please give him a hug and tell him he is right.

i live and breath this every day for years. Keeping these snake eating florida kings toegther and feeding them together and never looking back.

The reason i am doing these posts is for you guys to think. And maybe a little for my own entertainment. Me thinks that is hilarious.

It kinda like cheating at poker. Only difference is you think I am bluffing.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer, I think if you had some kings eat each other you wouldn't admit it since you say they don't.

Sure i had them eat each other. That happened before i started housing them together year round. I did things liek you did and I left a breeding pair together to long. Also by leaving neonates together in a tub after they shed.

but i laid out the bonding process. It works and advice is free of charge.

You can't ever E-V-E-R get a better deal than that on captive husbandry and propagation information.

You might thank me and apologize one day as so many other here will. Or should..

*pats himself on back*

LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer, you guys need to email me those scientific study papers showing me that cal kings and other kings bond for life. I guess that is why we see them together all the time crossing roads together. I didn't realize they ran in groups together.
You can do it your way and I'll do it mine and the only thing is I'll tell people how I do it and you can tell them HOW TO DO IT.

Rainer, you guys need to email me those scientific study papers showing me that cal kings and other kings bond for life. I guess that is why we see them together all the time crossing roads together. I didn't realize they ran in groups together.

Don,
No offense but that is a pretty weak arguement for someone that is supposed to be experienced.

What came first the road or the snake?

Oh never mind. it is just not worth it.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Simple way out isn't it.

I disagree with a lot of that Billy, but especially the evidence of bonding, (I said evidence, not proof). There is plenty of evidence that (some) snakes can and do "bond". Maybe Bond isn't the best term to describe it, but it's the term we've been using.

There is also evidence that snakes live in tribes, or family groups, and this may well have something to do with these and other behaviors.

You said yourself, these are kingsnakes and they eat each other, right? Well why don't they eat each other all the time?

Regarding snakes lacking "social" behaviors, you just flat out failed on that one, as in wrong.

”The large greyish colored male is the king of the sand dune in there. He chases the other two males aroung the unit, and once they go back to their hide, he then goes back to the female and curls up with her. They've bred several times in the past few weeks...AND last November just before I cooled them. It's funny because the other two smaller males are trying to get in on the action but he chases them away...a very jealous and possessive boyfriend I guess! HAHAHA! Later on in the year though, during the warmer months they all get lazy and the activity in their play pen slows wayyyy down.”

I'd say that at the very least, this is definitive evidence that a SOCIAL heirarchy exists here. (This is a partial exerpt of my earlier post from below).

"a smaller, weaker, less fortunate, submissive, who's NOT gonna get any male; on the run from the bigger, stronger, more fortunate, "I'm gonna get me some", hornier, king of the sand dune, alpha male"

The "bigger, stronger, more fortunate, "I'm gonna get me some because I've got bigger, better, and faster genetics", hornier, king of the sand dune, alpha male", curling up with the girl.

Hi Joe,

Can you give me some examples of social behaviuor?

I guess most of us equate social behaviour with these type of examples:

Wolves - hunting in packs.being taught to hunt etc.

Domestic dogs- playing, Mother cat feeding her kittens and they come when called.

Mother ducks- leading their ducklings around.

Squirrels- playing at a bird feeder and pushing each other away to assert dominance at feeding time.

Lions- in a pride developing a hiearchy. Female hunt.

Meerkats- Lookouts,hunters, nursemaids, baby sitters.

Horses- safety in numbers, when turned out older ones hang with older, younger ones try to best each other and play. Dominant looks out for others and determines when/where to eat.

Deer- herd animals, dominant female determines what herd eats where they go.Teach young to hide etc.

Is social behaviour in that sense not at all what we are talking about. Instead more of an awareness of where others are for mating purposes and the best hibernaculum, who to avoid because they are grumpy and might eat you. Staying out of the way of doninant stronger males. What individuals make alarming hungry moves toward you and others that are easy going? etc?

Thanks,
Bob.

Hello Bob,
Rather than trying to redefine social behavior for your benefit, do a google search on social behavior in snakes and see what the scholars have to say about it.

The thing is we can all come up with examples that discredit any opinion but here are the facts:

Captive animals are at the whim of their keepers and those circumstances they are kept under may or may not replicate natural conditions.

Resultant behavior may or may not be indicative of natural behavior.

I've kept kings together before and done so quite successfully. I would even say they appeared more happy even though I can't qualify that.

I like that this is now being discussed in more depth. Yes it can be done but not willie nillie as was once inferred though I do not believe deliberately so. Sorry for being such an ass Frank.

In the end how we keep captive snakes is about us. If we were really about the snakes we'd be spending our time and resources working to conserve habitat, demonstrating at rattle round-ups and giving educational presentations not ruminating about what price to put on a deli cup.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

i wish this site had a "like" button.

it doesn't, so, LIKE!

>>> Sorry for being such an ass Frank.

what's an "ass frank"? and I'm not Frank.

Tony,
You assume that these folks have field experience beyond the plastic box. Many of them do not, and for those the plastic box is all they know. You (a person) can only relate to what you know, so in reality what this boils down to is ignorance (in a lot of cases). In some cases it's just being stubborn, but please don't try to tell me snakes don't have social behaviors (hey, we're not talking about cocktail parties here).

Now I don't give a rats ass if you keep your kings together or not - but yes, I do keep mine together and THEY do live together in the field.

Let me ask you a question - have you seen this behavior yourself in nature? Or are you going to be like Billy and just spout off an OPINION, AND TRY TO PAWN THEM OFF AS FACTS?

What's an ass frank? Thats funny Joe but I didn't think I was taking sides, I'm just glad the specifics are getting discussed.

As for having observed the behavior in the wild, outside of breeding season, I have not but that doesn't mean it doesn't occur.

That said I can see how environment might effect the observability of the behavior. In this regard I think western herpers are at an advantage.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>> Or are you going to be like Billy and just spout off an OPINION, AND TRY TO PAWN THEM OFF AS FACTS?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

thats TOO funny joe, happens ALL the time on this forum.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I know a lot of people that have lost snakes the same way so I disagree with you. Some eat each other snakes and some don't and I am not willing to take that chance. I think Discern pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I think Billy's post was full of holes....

How many times do i have to repeat it. It is about "bonding" them properly during brumation. Throw 2 kings together and you will most likely get one fat snake. How hard is it to undertand their is a process.

I know a lot of people that have lost snakes the same way so I disagree with you. Some eat each other snakes and some don't and I am not willing to take that chance. I think Discern pretty much hit the nail on the head.

Don,
You missed the most important point here again. And that is BONDING.

Throw two kings together any time of year (as you have stated) and they can and will eat each other. Just like the 3 males you lost to females eating them after they bred her.

Why does everybody ignore the "bonding" and keep reiterating that if you throw 2 kings together they will eat each other. YES OF COURSE THEY WILL. I agree..

I think you guys are so closed minded you are not even reading my posts.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer, let's be logical here.

How long have you been doing things this way? How many snakes (if any) have you ever lost to canabalism? If you have ever lost any due to this would you continue with this methodology? Do yo recommend ALL snakes to be housed this way? Do you recommend new or inexperienced keepers to also do it this way? DOES IT WORK FOR YOU? Is it the ONLY way to do things? Are there any other problems that you have experienced, associated with this method? BTW, I know the answers to all of these question already because I've heard what you have said in the past regarding these issues. This is for your opposition.

Bottom line...opinions vary and if it works for you, it works for you. I don't understand how anyone can tell you you're wrong when this is the tried and true method YOU use, and have been using for so long with great results and apparently have had zero problems. Certainly if it has been problematic for you, I doubt you would continue this way, and would likely not consistently tell others about it. However comma If others have had bad experiences with canabalism or transmission of disease between cell mates, while keeping kings together, I don't blame them for their critisism and skeptisism regarding this hot topic. You will never convince someone otherwise if their mind is made up based on THEIR experience(s). I personally have NEVER had a king snake eat a another, nor even show much of an interest past the point of the initial intro.

How long have you been doing things this way?

I have been knowingly bonding snakes since 1998.

before then i did keep rosy boas housed toegther with zero problems. I also worked a lot with hybrids and had to experiment with all sorts of methods to get hard to breed spp together-like hondurans. Hondos are very difficult to hybridize. they are not like ratsnakes and cal kings..One can learn a lot about snakes through hybridization. I know that is a offensive topic for some. but when you try and get hard to breed species together it puts you down a road of experimenting and learning that give a person a real knack for ecology, husbandry and breeding.

Otherwise, like others here. I did try housing kings early on and had cannibalism because i never tried the bonding process. however i unwittingly started bonding due to space reasons during winter around 1993. i seperated the snakes after they warmed up because i thought (like most people here)- "once a cannibal awlays a cannibal"-why take the risk with KINGsnakes, right??.I don't recall ever having cannibalism with kingsnakes i bonded (intentionally or unitentionally).

How many snakes (if any) have you ever lost to canabalism?

ZERO that were bonded properly. And the key word here is BONDED properly. Othwrwise i would not reccomend putting two kings together. Especially now during breeding season. Nor would i reccomend it with neonate snakes. I wait until the kings are eating small mice. I wait until they are sub-adults when i start housing and feeding them together. that is the best time to start the bonding process. The first real brumation year when they are sub adults.

If you have ever lost any due to this would you continue with this methodology?
I never have had it happen. But if i did i would continue because there would be a reason overlooked- like a starved female. Or I removed the wrong snake to the wrong cage mate that it was not bonded to.

for instance: When i house sevral females with 2-3 males during winter. I do that so that male will bond with those females. if i decide to place 2 females to a cage then i can still place any of those males in with them. or swithc them around ...or pile them together. When females are gravid they are put is a seprate container by themselves anyway. So they are constantly being moved around. but only within their core group that they are bonded with. Do it with other bonded groups and you are taking risks.

Also want to sahre wheat happens when i placed males in a cage with an unbonded female. What happens is the male starts flying all over the cage trying to get out like it is running for its life (sound familiar to anyone?) and then if i remeove that same male and place it back in with the bonded female(s)cage, the male immediatly calms down and even curls up with its bonded cage mates. What does this tell us? hmmm?

Do yo recommend ALL snakes to be housed this way?
I don't reccomend "all" snakes. different species of snakes have different quirks and tricks to make them eat and breed in captivity. for instance with Lyre snakes i found out they are near impossible to get w/c to eat. Until somebody reccomended that i put a cereal box in stuffed to the rim with cardboard. the Lyre will cram itself in there and feeel secure. then i layed the FT mouse on top of it box and it was gone in the moring. i did this experiment with sevral lyers snakes in my lifetime and and they seem to need this ability to cram themselves into a tight spot. When you provide this for them they eat. all of the Lyers i have every kept ate this way. it is just one of the things we need to figure out about their ecology vs. captive needs. And that is all we are really talking about here. captive needs and what works best.

Do you recommend new or inexperienced keepers to also do it this way?

Yes definelty. Actually it is much easier for a novice or inexperienced person to learn than someone experienced that has been doing it for years the other way. It is a simple recipe of bonding and as long as that is adehered to it is something I definetly reccomend. maybe our next gen of herpers will make this common knowlegde in a few years.

It is really no more difficult to do for a novice than to learn to cycle their snakes. It is all new to them anyway. So it is easier for a novice than a scared keeper who has had cannibalism happen.

I feel pain whenever i am around weed wackers because i got whipped by one once. It hurt so bad that whenever i am around them I stay far away from the moving strands. That sting still sticks in my mind.

DOES IT WORK FOR YOU?

Most definetly, YEP!. It makes things a lot easier and i get good clutches and don't miss fertilization. All i do is remove eggs. Feeding is also a joy.

Is it the ONLY way to do things?
I guess if you want to breed. it is far easier to do it this way.

Easier in a lot of different ways. Also you will be more successful without trying to go the long way around. That might make you appear more accomplished than you really are. Or should take credit for. lol!

Are there any other problems that you have experienced, associated with this method?

Yeah! Cleaning! if you expect to clean cages once a month like you did before with one snake per sweater box. That ain't gonna happen. cleaning is a constant chore when keeping sevral snakes in one bin. Just keep an eye on the units and clean when neccsasrry. But cleaning during brumation is not nearly as much as spring and summer. Maybe once a month during winter brumation versus whenever the unit gets dirty during summer. I feed my snakes a lot. So the more you feed the more crap there is to clean up.

Just as i mentioned above. just because a snake is bonded with some snakes does not mean they are bonded with all the snakes in your collection. That is why it is a good idea to house sevral together during winter brumation.

Again this is an example of why i may choose to house several snakes together. lets say for example; 2 males and 5 females in a unit during winter bonding. then when spring comes i can and seperate if neccsary to fit my needs of husbandry or which males i want with what females.. Also the extra male may just be a back up-just in case.

DESEASES:
Also some people mentioned deseases while keeping several kings together. I guess they alluded to the desease spreading while housing sevral snakes together

My answer to that would be most transferable deseases (like for example 'zonata desease) are so contageuos your whole room would be infected anyway. Same thing with mites. The Secret is don't add or intergrade unkown snakes from the outside of your collection and you won't have any problems.Period.

Otherwise i don't know or heard of snakes instantaneuosly catching the flu or colds like humans. So if there is a problem. it usually will effect everything in the area or proximity of the shelving anyway....
I mean, that is the way i assume most people keep their snakes. In shelving units.right?

The best prevention of spreadable parasites is cleanliness and QUARANTEENING NEW AQUISITIONS. We should all do that anyway. I can't stress this enough! But a person who buys a snake(s) and adds it to his collection w/o a quaranteen is asking for problems.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer great answers to all the questions. I have couple if you wouldn't mind me asking? With 3-5 snakes in a bin how large of a bin are you keeping them in? I am sure a 41 quart sterilite would only be able to house possibly 2 adults? Also, at feeding time how do you know who's feeding and who isn't? Assuming you feed them all together?

I understand the whole bonding process I used to know a guy that kept a corn and a honduran together with no problems never cooled or bred them and fed them seperate. Once a week. It worked spent many of years that way....Did they bond? or were the just used to it. The one thing was the corn was bigger than the honduran when they were introduced together.
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Jimmy Tintle

Rainer great answers to all the questions. I have couple if you wouldn't mind me asking? With 3-5 snakes in a bin how large of a bin are you keeping them in? I am sure a 41 quart sterilite would only be able to house possibly 2 adults? Also, at feeding time how do you know who's feeding and who isn't? Assuming you feed them all together?

I don't know the exact quart size but they are the super long higher end tubs you get at Office max and Office depot. I will find out the qt size and post later.

I understand the whole bonding process I used to know a guy that kept a corn and a honduran together with no problems never cooled or bred them and fed them seperate. Once a week. It worked spent many of years that way....Did they bond? or were the just used to it. The one thing was the corn was bigger than the honduran when they were introduced together.

I can't answer that question because hondurans and corns don't meet in nature. Maybe, i don't know.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Missed one question, sorry the one about the corna n honduran was pretty much justa statement....Here's the other question...

Also, at feeding time how do you know who's feeding and who isn't? Assuming you feed them all together?
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Jimmy Tintle

Also, at feeding time how do you know who's feeding and who isn't? Assuming you feed them all together?

My main concern are females and what they eat. Males will breed all day long and some go off food for months during breeding. it is always the females you have to watch and make sure they have lots of weight oin them to ovulate.

So to answer your question. i just open the cage and look at them. I check to see if there are any leftover chicks or mice and remeove and see how many lumps are in my females.

Without feeding females. You won't get eggs. So it is natural that you play close attention to this. The more the females eat. the happier i am.

........And i like being happy. So yes, i definetly check to see who has eaten.

if you think about it, it is no different than having a single snake per tub. You just have more work to open each tub with single ekpt specimens. When your collection gets above 100 or so, this "task" of opening cages is more laborious than it seems.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Don't take my questions as badgering, I just want to understand to the fulliest of your husbandry. You stated "When your collection gets above 100 or so, this "task" of opening cages is more laborious than it seems"

Now if you seperate gravid females during the spring wouldn't you need close to the same amount of cages that you have snakes? Not exactly but has to be pretty close, unless the females automatically stager there "window" for you? Wouldn't you still have to open roughly 80 or so cages through out breeding season? Do you keep more than 1 male together during breeding season?

I keep about 8 different Lampropeltis species and they all stager pretty naturally with the montane species usually early and my sinnies or hondurans last. I have roughly 80 or so snakes an I have the routine down pat for 80 cages. I can do a total cleaning in about 4-5 hrs, that includes washing and disinfecting all the tubs, and washing all water bowls. I can feed every snake in the collection and stop and watch some in about 2. Just really trying to weigh the risk vs. reward.
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Jimmy Tintle

I would venture to guess if you replaced the term "bonding" with "familiarity", there would likely be less resistance to everything you're saying. Notice I said "LESS". Without a doubt, they do and will become famliliar with each other. Although I do not house all of my snakes together in groups, year around, I do have several pairs of breeder Floridas in together right now and have for the past several weeks. They readily eat mice as soon as I offer them. If they are SO canabalistic, why do they wait to be fed and not just eat each other? I would say because they are already well fed, and are FAMILIAR with each other.

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Jimmy Tintle

Micah, I bring up a point that I made to Rainer also. What happens in a time of crisis, when things can get hectic, like an illness, or a death in the family? Any event in our lives that disrupts our daily routines for a week or two. Do the snakes start looking at each other like lunch? For anyone who has ever had a situation arise where they go a few days more than they would like to checking on their snakes, this is very imprortant.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

True that. LOL! That's exactly what I'm faced with next week. I'm going out of town to Miami for about 3 days (wed-fri) and am admmittedly a little stressed. And no, I'm not gonna leave any of my pairs together because I DON'T want to come home to find a few less, but really fatter snakes in tubs where there had been two. But that's mainly because I'm all about risk management. I can't say how I WILL die, but I can say how I WON'T die (from sky diving, cliff jumping, running with the bulls, etc). In other words, I'm just not comfortable taking certain risks. I whole-heartedly DO NOT BELIEVE my snakes would eat each other while I'm gone to Dade County, but the only way to gaurantee that they won't, is to separate them. One less thing for me to be concerned with while I'm away. Rainer on the other hand would NOT be concerned with this because his personal, undisputable experience supports his justified, lack of concern. Its simply not a PROBABLE risk for him. Let's face it, we all risk one of the two kings eating eachother EVERY time they're left in a tub together, even during breeding. At least with Rainer's method, there's not that initial spaz-out between two snakes who are immediately sizing each other up, during that initial intro. But I completely understand where, the majority it seems, are not going to take that chance and cannot be convinced otherwise.

Micah, I bring up a point that I made to Rainer also. What happens in a time of crisis, when things can get hectic, like an illness, or a death in the family? Any event in our lives that disrupts our daily routines for a week or two. Do the snakes start looking at each other like lunch? For anyone who has ever had a situation arise where they go a few days more than they would like to checking on their snakes, this is very imprortant.

actaully I have had this happen in my life. And the answer is no. they definetly DO NOT start looking to each other as food. I think it would take months-but i have never tried that much time out. So it is an assumption that bonded snakes will eventually eat each other if starving to death. So do people. dogs, cats, pigs. But that does not make them cannibalistic in the stirctest sense.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Micah, I bring up a point that I made to Rainer also. What happens in a time of crisis, when things can get hectic, like an illness, or a death in the family? Any event in our lives that disrupts our daily routines for a week or two. Do the snakes start looking at each other like lunch? For anyone who has ever had a situation arise where they go a few days more than they would like to checking on their snakes, this is very imprortant.

I answered this question below and the answer is no. they won't. not after just a few days or even 4 weeks.

Just like all people I have had problems come up in my life at the worst times of the year. Life happens.

But when it did i did not seperate any of my snakes. And NONE of the adults ate each other (I did leave sevral neonates together and they did ate each other) but none of the bonded sub adults and adults.

I think that eventually it will happen. And as i have stated before it will happen with humans, cats, pigs, rodents or almost any animal near starvation. this is not an indicator that these animals are strict cannibals.
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www.Bluerosy.com

So your saying neonates are more cannabalistic than adults? I guess that could be true as your adults and sub adults have learned that the smell of a mouse/chic is food and a smell of a snake is a buddy....If it is a learned behavior, why would certain snakes freak out when put with a female that it didn't cool with...Different smell? or perfume?
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Jimmy Tintle

i don't know why the babies eat each other. maybe i am doijg something wrong. Or maybe babies are just stupid or just strike and eat anything that moves. maybe it is the smell on another baby that just ate that attracts them to eat each other...I don't know..But for sure mine eat each other as long as they are feeding on pinks. I wait until I get them on adult mice.

Simple receipe:

babies snakes -keep seperate

sub adults-start bonding process

That is how i do it. maybe FR will come on here and tell me i am doing something wrong-I don't know. but that part is pretty basic for me. i don't want to lose a snake that I have for sale or one that i am keeping to raise up. So only my sub adults get put together during winter.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Micah, I bring up a point that I made to Rainer also. What happens in a time of crisis, when things can get hectic, like an illness, or a death in the family? Any event in our lives that disrupts our daily routines for a week or two. Do the snakes start looking at each other like lunch? For anyone who has ever had a situation arise where they go a few days more than they would like to checking on their snakes, this is very imprortant.

There is another thing I thought of to consider.

there is a difference between well fed kings that are left without food for a while and others who are barely on a maintnance diet, (or what i call a starvation diet), that are left alone.

I only mention this because a majority of newbies posting here oever and over.. ask about frequency of feeding and how much. After they respond to the question thrown back at them "how often and what size meal?", the answer I get in most cases they are not feeding their snakes nearly enough. this information they get come from the "standard"- 'feed your snake once per week" crowd and "only feed it a food item small enough to.." so . So in my mind it is worth mentioning that stavation diets and snakes in bonded groups left w/o food for long periods could equal disaster much quicker than those fed as much as they can eat routine..

I think a keeper first needs to know how much to feed a snake. And specially a breeder female king or a growing neonate or sub adult...in most of these posts here there has been lots of controversy over just this subject alone. And some of the naysayers to keeping bonded kingsnakes together do practice these types of feeding 'schedules". So if anyone espeoses to these types of feeding schedules and sizes don't blame it on cannibalsim. Blame it on yourselves. Matter of fact don't try bonding at all. Bulimicly stressed keepers need not apply until you undertand about giving your snakes choices. That includes heat, food and humidity.

in short-FEED THE *SNAKES AS MUCH AS THEY WILL EAT AND AS OFTEN AS THEY WANT.

*breeder males in season don't count!
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www.Bluerosy.com

"FEED THE *SNAKES AS MUCH AS THEY WILL EAT AND AS OFTEN AS THEY WANT"

Rainer, you compared cannabalism in snakes to the same as mammals and humans.....If I feed my kid as much as she will eat she will become obese....The same is not for snakes? I am just trying to make a connection, so your saying if I feed the appropiate size meal and feed them til they think they are full they won't become obese?
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Jimmy Tintle

Rainer, you compared cannabalism in snakes to the same as mammals and humans.....If I feed my kid as much as she will eat she will become obese....The same is not for snakes? I am just trying to make a connection, so your saying if I feed the appropiate size meal and feed them til they think they are full they won't become obese?

No! it is a mistake to compare anatomy of humans to snakes. You can over feed your kid. But not growing N. American colubrids.

But see..i have to be careful with some statements you guys take as blanket statemenst. that is why i constantly repeat "FLORIDA KINGS". You see,.. pythons and boas can become obese very quickly wehn fed all they can eat. So don't use my snake husbandry comments for other snakes and especially humans.

now for florida kings. Can they be oever fed? Sure they can. if they are not breeding and ccyling ect. Put one in a box. Don't breed it but once per year and the adult will get fat. but if you are ALLOWING them to be TOGETHER in a cage. they will produce 2-3 clucthes per year. You can feed them all they can eat cause they are contantly needing all that food for what they want to do naturally.

This is not complicated. Put your sub adults together this winter. Then keep them together all year except when females are laying.

Wow i said it in 2 short sentences. That is all the info you really need. Everything esle is common sense.
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www.Bluerosy.com

they will produce 2-3 clucthes per year. You can feed them all they can eat cause they are contantly needing all that food for what they want to do naturally.

Rainer....
I am glad you made that point clear to newbies that will read this thread.......It makes more sense to feed females all they can eat and when they want to if they are breeding......

And as you stated somewhere in this freakin thread......Subadult snakes will eat around 150 prey item its first year......then the keeper will see that an adult will not "want" food as much as they did while they were using it for growth. Adult snakes do not use food for growth....They use food to sustain health and females to produce follicles and replenish used calories, fat, etc......

Great point made here I think.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I am not trying to take things out of context Rainer....I am trying to understand your whole husbandry system....It's not as simple as put them together during cooling and feed them....Do you offer food every night? every 2 nights? or when you reach your hand towards the cage and 5 heads pop out being like little kittens and take that morsel out of your hand....Please understand it's hard for some to understand this....This thread is only pertaining to FL Kingsnakes, no others....I don't keep FL Kings and personally have no interests at the moment, but if I ever do I would like to know what others have done and succeeded....

Basically, this is what your telling me to do:

1. sub-adults and adults spend winter cooling together(Only Sub adults and adults)

2. During spring make sure I keep the males and females that spent the winter cooling together. Together! If perhaps I accidently put a male that spent the winter with another set of snakes I take the chance of him not being bonded with them and being eaten or harassed...( so I need good notes so that won't happen)

3. Make sure I hand feed everyone of the snakes their first food, before dropping in the rest? If they eat the rest do I drop in more? What do I do with the ones not eaten?

4. Makes sure I check the females, and they have plenty. Some males will go months without eating during breeding season..

5. Feed as often as they want. Well, they don't talk so how do I know when they are hungry? 2 days offer more? 3 or 4?

6. When females are gravid remove from the co-existing tub and set them up on there own. Before pre-lay shed, after, or when I can actually tell when they are gravid?

7. Continue feeding Co-existing snakes the same. Females set up in different tubs get food too...Female lays eggs. Feed female as much as possible and return to Co-existing tub...(*Note...Make sure she goes back with her bonded(spent the winter with) buddies)

8. Feed,feed,feed....How often? Make sure I hand feed the first morsel of feeding time....

9. Repeat to step 4

Issues

1. Male hasn't eaten in 5 months, do I remove the male and get him to eat? He seems kinda thin?

2. Female was attacked when returning to co-existing tub?

3. I can't tell if one of my snakes is eating, she won't eat out of my hand and seems shy. She is with my mozaics. What do I do?

4. I hear sneezing in the tub but I can't put my finger on which one is doing it....They all seem ok...

5. I opened the draw to find a regurged mouse, But I don't know who did it? What do I do?

6. One of my females look gravid, and I feel eggs but are they fertilized, I never saw copulation. Do I set her up any way?

7. When I open the tub, 5 snakes all come out at once...How do I control this?

8. There are defecations in the tub everyday, and with all 5 snakes trying to get out it's hard to clean and keep them at bay.

I am not disagreeing with your ways, I am trying to understand better and giving you examples of what may happen not only to me but to others and newbee's. I don't expect you to answer these questions. I know each snake is different, and snake keeper.

For the majority of Newbee's or even some that have kept snakes before this may seem a little overbearing at first....Now, if you are the mentor for this husbandry of FL Kings and your students follow you everyday and watch it's easy.... I don't think some people want to chance $50 or $5,000.00 on an accident...If you do it the old school way and watch copulations, and seperate when needed your risk is lower...right? You may miss a "window" or 2, but you have saved your investment and/or pet from a simple stupid mistake...

Just my thoughts and thanks for the opportunity to discuss this in a civilized manner...
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Jimmy Tintle

Jimmy....
I can answer the major "theme" of your questions.....
Snakes cannot talk but we as keepers need to learn from their actions.
If husbandry is optimal and all choices are provided a snake will tell you that it is not digesting and that it is conserving energy just by being on the cool side of the enclosure....Pressed against the tub wall usually......sometimes around the water bowl....staying as cool as possible......

When my snakes do this I feed....If I see the majority of my snakes doing this I feed all of them......If I see a few of them doing this I feed them only......

You get to know how many a snake will eat.....I don't know if you get this knowledge from a group of snakes living together though.....

Snakes will tell you other things too...Like...it's too dry or it's hot spot is not hot enough.......along with other things......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"If husbandry is optimal and all choices are provided a snake will tell you that it is not digesting and that it is conserving energy just by being on the cool side of the enclosure....Pressed against the tub wall usually......sometimes around the water bowl....staying as cool as possible......

John, I get your point, and I understand in my husbandry what my snakes like and what the don't. But just wrapping around the water bowl is not always a reason to feed.....Males will wrap water bowls during breeding season because their enclosure is to warm, Others will stay in the water bowl because the enclosure is to warm....I know you know this.....I am giving Rainer some questions that might come up....While using his Technique....

See, as Jeremy posted, Rainer actually came and showed him how he does it....Mentor, sudent relationship.....I am sure Rainer or Jeremy don't want to travel the world and show everyone how to do it....But for any newbees reading this thread there just is to many variables in this technique.....I request tub sizes, they don't want to give them, why? I asked specific questions, because I want to learn, not to fight or argue over what's best.

There are tidbits of good info that Rainer and Jeremy posted, but that doesn't constitute it's as easy as putting 1.6 in a tub and throwing handfuls of chicks in the tub....Sorry, I can't believe that.....I am not argueingg the point of bonding, it happens in nature all the time. We know rattlesnakes and Garter snakes Hibernate/brumate in large quantities all the time... We know that 5-10 Garter snakes can try and breed with the same female at a time.....It's what they do....This type of action has made them go on for thousands of years....That is how the are wired...

We also know mice can live in large masses, 1.6 to an appropiate size tube as long as they have food and water. We also know that disease spreads rather quickly in large colonies of mice and crickets. Rainer touched on the quaritine issue. I think when you keep these animals this way, and at the hands of a new keeper it may be detrimental. How many old timers used hand sanitizer between handling snakes? How many people used to make possible handlers use it between handling at shows years ago?

I think if we all really wanted to give the animals what the want in nature we will first have to determine the area that they use in nature. 1 mile radius? well that is a very large cage and nobody I know has the money or the means of doing this. Are you or anyone else capable of giving your snakes a range between 40F and 100F? Is Rainer or Jeremy doing this in FL?

John don't take this personally, I know who your mentors are and I know you have your own way, and so do many others. I respect you and everyone before me in this hobby that has accomplished the all mighty! and that is to get these animals to survive and thrive in captivity and reproduce. We may kill many of animals before we get there exact needs down but it's all trial and error. Rainer and Jeremy have tried different ways and I respect that, and it works for them and for the FL King.....

I will stop my babbling now, and sit back and listen to all the good points everyone touches on and come to my own conclusion and continue to test what my thoughts are and study them while they go through change....
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Jimmy Tintle

Nothing taken personally at all bud.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

3. Make sure I hand feed everyone of the snakes their first food, before dropping in the rest? If they eat the rest do I drop in more? What do I do with the ones not eaten?

actually this part is not neccessary. i just do it for fun. and i tell people to do it to make them feel better. But it is not necessary.

In all these threads over the past months, years..the real question has not been asked about bonding and comunal housing of kings. I wonder when somebody asks the million dollar question..???

here is a hint, why i am only responding to this question #3.

I am really not playing with you guys. i just want you to think out of the box.

I know nothing about ball pythons. yet i have kept thousands when i used to buy fresh captive bron imports back in the 80's and early 90's. You see i never really tried anything with them. never experimented. Nothing. So just because i kept the BP's does not mean i KNOW BP's. So i know nothing about Ball Pythons.
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www.Bluerosy.com

If a pair is bonded how do you breed a male to multiple females?

The old fashioned way of moving them to an enclosure together and watching?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

nope that is not the million dlloar question.

The question is much more intense than that. The answer is just unbelievable.

But I don't think everyone is ready for this part. First people need to start bonding their snakes during brumation. Which i know you have. But I am not speaking to yopu or Crimsonking directly or some others that have. I think you guys would get over it in a week or two. But not so with others.

baically this forum would explode.

LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

He will give the answer but he will have to kill everyone he tells or the earth may explode.

>>He will give the answer but he will have to kill everyone he tells or the earth may explode.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Why didn't you answer my damn question?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Why didn't you answer my dan question?

because procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...?

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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Why didn't you answer my dan question?
>>
>>because procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...?
>>
>>
>>-----
>>www.Bluerosy.com
>>

No...
Poor Planning and Procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Wow you guys still going at it. One look at the kingsnake classifieds will demonstrate the dearth of getula in the market, hence the dire need for improved husbandry techniques and greater production.
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Rick Staub

Wow you guys still going at it. One look at the kingsnake classifieds will demonstrate the dearth of getula in the market, hence the dire need for improved husbandry techniques and greater production.

That is actually a good qeustion.

WHY DID THE COLUBRID MARKET START FIZZLING OUT ABOUT 6 YEARS AGO? It wasn't the large constrictors! Which made a LOT of money for breeders...so... So it must have been...

The death of getula is because most people moved over to BP.

The reason they moved over to BP is because of quick money returns in rasing codom morphs VS reccessive traits. Also because of the multitud of codom traits which makes new codom morphs snowball into the market every 6 months.
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www.Bluerosy.com

How do you know which snakes are more agressive than the others?
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Jimmy Tintle

I use a clicker and when my snakes are hungry they will huddle up together and draw straws to see who will crawl to the clicker and have a mouse come down the chute.

It's called bonding and socializing and feeding when you want to.

Kerby...
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What happens if you can't find the remote? Good luck on the 2011 Taxidermy competition!!!!
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Jimmy Tintle

Thanks I am also giving a seminar at the World Show.

I think my snakes are going to truly miss me when I'm gone.

Kerby...
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Make sure you feed heavily before you go, so you can clean poop when you get back....
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Jimmy Tintle

The question is WWRD?

I just put 4 dishes out with different days of the week and they figure it out.

Like is grand in Mayberry!

Kerby...
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Crackin' me up Kerby!

WWRD for sure man!..
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

I raise and have raised cal kings for quite some time now and NEVER would house them together. That is foolish, but to each his own.

Lots of species of snakes eat other snakes to include their own species. Most species in the animal kingdom kill their own, that is just the way it is. It is irrelevant if the eat their own, killing produces the same result.

The problem with your thread and your attitude is that you are not encouraging discussion, but rather throwing your "bonding" attitude as the correct policy. Logic flaw to say the least.

But I'm not here to convince anyone to keep their snakes either way, because I don't give a rat's patuty.

But to try and use the "bonding" logic as the correct way in unlogical.

Kerby...
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Thats okay kerby. I always thought you kept your cal kings together. Guess i was mistaken.

For the most part i speak of my experience with eastern getula. Cal kings do seem a bit more nervous to me. But i have kept them together year round with no problems. Just not on a "huge" scale like i have with Florida kings. Just a few here and there.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Kerby, you can't win.

That's why I went and did some more taxidermy work. Getting ready for the 2011 World Taxidermy Championships in a few weeks in St. Charles, MO.

Now if I could only get rid of half my snakes I would be happy. Today was rodent changing day.....and it just sucks. I need to downsize my breeders by 30 more. I have lost the motivation.

Kerby...
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Now if I could only get rid of half my snakes I would be happy. Today was rodent changing day.....and it just sucks. I need to downsize my breeders by 30 more. I have lost the motivation.

well if you want to get rid of them just house them together.. just make sure you don't bond them first. or you will be stuck with more than you can imagine.

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www.Bluerosy.com

Yeah, reading these forums makes you want to get out. I think Rainer really needs to publish his bonding technique. I've done this as long as he has but he knows it all. Can't win this arguement. I really need to stay off of the forum. I usually do until someone links me to it.

>>Yeah, reading these forums makes you want to get out. I think Rainer really needs to publish his bonding technique. I've done this as long as he has but he knows it all. Can't win this arguement. I really need to stay off of the forum. I usually do until someone links me to it.

That's a real shame, because we need more level headed voices with great experience here, as your self Don. Yet I understand, Mike Madec from Isis, told me the same thing. As well as many others.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Yeah, reading these forums makes you want to get out. I think Rainer really needs to publish his bonding technique. I've done this as long as he has but he knows it all. Can't win this arguement. I really need to stay off of the forum. I usually do until someone links me to it.

Yes, How a forum that is filled with guys who are interested in something you like so much can be so obnoxious to be around is sort of a mystery to me. It can make you crazy and bring out the worst in you. I'm glad I have a handful of friends at different levels hobbywise that I respect and if I need to get an opinion or run something past them or just want to shoot the breeze about something we mutually love I get a respectful response or good natured busting. As a man,just out of respect for yourself, you can't let people talk to you like this.

Hope you all have a good year with your hobby and projects.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't let the selfishness of others ruin the forum for you. This forum needs the words of actual, professional, top notch breeders such as yourself.

Take care!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks Billy, but I don't breed much anymore and I see myself more as a serious intermediate. LOL Your a bad influence and part of the reason I'm wading into Pits! LOL

Billy.
When I close my eyes now I see non outcrossed Ginter stock Hypo Stillwaters Bulls and Black Pines. It's a freaking disease! I need help. LOL

HA HA HA HA HA HA HAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are too funny!!
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Genesis 1:1

Have you EVER had a snake not eat as it should because it's cage mates did not let it eat properly? Now think hard about this one, and be honest!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Can I add one more to this....If you see a female not eating one week, Do you mark it down some where so that the next week you know which one fed and which one didn't. I know getula has a good feeding response, but just sayin'. What happens if she doesn't eat for 2 or 3. When do you eventually move her to a secluded cage to get food back in her?
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Jimmy Tintle

Can I add one more to this....If you see a female not eating one week, Do you mark it down some where so that the next week you know which one fed and which one didn't. I know getula has a good feeding response, but just sayin'. What happens if she doesn't eat for 2 or 3. When do you eventually move her to a secluded cage to get food back in her?

Sometuikes they don't feed as some are in the blue. But i should also mention i don't feed ONCE per week. if one is in the blue or misses a meal the next feeding it will eat. probably becomes the more aggressive feeder of the group . i find this out when hand feeding each one its first morsel.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Sometuikes they don't feed as some are in the blue. But i should also mention i don't feed ONCE per week. if one is in the blue or misses a meal the next feeding it will eat. probably becomes the more aggressive feeder of the group . i find this out when hand feeding each one its first morsel."

Ok "Once a week" should have been per feeding, as I don't feed once a week either. What I gather from this is you have never had a male or female refuse food other than being in the blue? That's great! So every snake in your collection gets hand fed their first meal? How do you feed 5 snakes at the same time with only two hands? I have Hondurans that will take my hand off after she laid eggs and for her first meal... and I am talking she got her first meal as soon as that last egg was laid...

This is some pretty awesome information.....I would like to try this winter with a few pairs...
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Jimmy Tintle

I think if i had a female refuse food and it is not in the blue i would be immdeiatly suspect to its health condition. Cause Florida kings eat well.

I might alo consider if the female is gravid or is also recovering from laying. laying eggs takes a bit out of the females. So in the first 2 or 3 days after laying they sometyimes don't feel up to eating yet.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Exellent question Jim. I use color coded tabs for mine. Since mine are primarily housed individually, it's easy. A red tab means there's a mouse in the tub (last I looked), a yellow tab means it didn't eat the last time I offered, and then I date it, an orange tab means it's been more than 1 or 2 feedings and its from that point, "on the radar" so to speak. I then modify the feedings for that specific snake (deli cup, paper bag, scenting, etc) to get him back on track. And finally, green. Green means water. If I have to pull a water cup on the spot because of some dooty, I'll pull it and then immediately put a green tab on the tub so I don't forget about it.

Sorry Jim, hahahaha! You weren't asking me what I do, it was for Rainer. So let's back up. What I meant to say was:

"Exellent question, Jim. I wonder what Rainer does?". Hahhaha! That's better.

I replied any way...
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Jimmy Tintle

I use pretty much the same system...I have color coded tabs too, makes life simple I also us a dry erase board to make sure I know when females shed, copulation observed, prelay shed, lay date, size of clutch, and date hatched... I don't per say use feed cards except with hatchlings....It's a system where the tabs work great...
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Jimmy Tintle

I use a dry erase board too...mainly just for the dates I feed though. "Babies, subs, adults, and crotalids", all in separate columns. Works well.

I have a similar system Micah! Check out this video...

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Have you EVER had a snake not eat as it should because it's cage mates did not let it eat properly? Now think hard about this one, and be honest!

Sometimes a snake from a different gentic backround (example some with Mosiac in the mix0 are more timid than others due to their ranges and natural habits are less aggressive than others. if i have say for instacne a Ghost and want to breed it to a mosiac x hypo. The ghost may be more aggressive than the mosiac cross. What i do is give each snake the first chick or mouse and they each grab it and I leave the rest in the cage. then they just take turns when feeding off the pile.

This allows all teh snakes to get off that insticytual aggressive grab and all the snakes are calm and just start feeding on the next morsel.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Sometimes a snake from a different gentic backround (example some with Mosiac in the mix0 are more timid than others due to their ranges and natural habits are less aggressive than others. if i have say for instacne a Ghost and want to breed it to a mosiac x hypo. The ghost may be more aggressive than the mosiac cross. What i do is give each snake the first chick or mouse and they each grab it and I leave the rest in the cage. then they just take turns when feeding off the pile.
>>
>>This allows all teh snakes to get off that insticytual aggressive grab and all the snakes are calm and just start feeding on the next morsel.

Whoa! Whoa! WHOA!
I thought you were just talking about housing them together. The hassle part I referred to below was the need to separate them for feeding. I was ambivalent about your method before but if you feed them together in the same cage unsupervised then I am 100% against recommending this to anyone. These are not puppies lining up to feed out of the same food bowl. That is just nuts and I do not care if you have not had one cannibalized yet. You will.

Kids - never cross a street without first looking both ways and never feed 2 snakes in the same cage unsupervised.

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Rick Staub

"These are not puppies lining up to feed out of the same food bowl"

it's been said they are really like Lions and Crocodiles who have a pecking order from most dominant to the least, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

it's been said they are really like Lions and Crocodiles who have a pecking order from most dominant to the least, lol.

yes it has been said and done.

but there is one really important fact to this phenomina. Which nobdoy has asked about yet. And i am glad they haven't . because we all must first get past the first hurdle before going onto this topic.

And it s a doozy. you guys won't be able to handle it. So I'd rather not go there. At least not yet.
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www.Bluerosy.com

...but Oh Great One.....don't leave us hanging.....what a ripoff! Ya mean I hafta read another hour long thread to find out the meaning of life?
I'll wait for the movie......
or at least Cliff's notes..

have a great year Rainer!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>...but Oh Great One.....don't leave us hanging.....what a ripoff! Ya mean I hafta read another hour long thread to find out the meaning of life?
>>I'll wait for the movie......
>>or at least Cliff's notes..
>>
>>have a great year Rainer!
>>:Mark
>>-----
>>Surrender Dorothy!
>>
>>crimsonking.piczo.com/
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

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Jimmy Tintle

Whoa! Whoa! WHOA!
I thought you were just talking about housing them together. The hassle part I referred to below was the need to separate them for feeding. I was ambivalent about your method before but if you feed them together in the same cage unsupervised then I am 100% against recommending this to anyone. These are not puppies lining up to feed out of the same food bowl. That is just nuts and I do not care if you have not had one cannibalized yet. You will.

HA HA HA! Do you know how many i have? Do you have any idea how long i have been doing this??

I can give you the answer you need. But you are not ready for it yet. neither is this forum.

basically you can't handle the truth. So i won't give the answer.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Please don't ask the "magic" question! I am not ready to hear it
, nor can I handle anymore grandstanding. He is awesome and he will be the first to tell anyone who will listen. I can't believe he suckered you guys into another long winded colubrid mensa meeting. He is dead set on his way being the only way and nothing any of you say will change that!