Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dotz being gravid, pre shed. she has since shed, about ten days ago. Today she is very restless, going from her moss container to her water bowl pan full of moss (I have put the water bowl itself on top of her hide box so she wont see it as an attractive lay site)and even considering leaving her big maternity tub all together, a thing she seldom ever does normally. I am trying very hard to not disturb her in any way while she sorts this.
Like any lady well into a pregnancy, she is likely feeling a little uncomfortable. I expect eggs any day now.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Have you tried laying a board over the moss? They seem to want to sqeeze into something like that rather than have a high roof of a "nest" box..

I just mention this because 10 days after shed is a long time to go before laying. When I did away with lay boxes the snakes started laying earlier.

Any type of board will work. Glass, wood, plastic top from rubbermaid if you have nothing heavier. just put a small stone on top to weigh it down. If you do that i bet she will lay in the next 24 hours. the fact she is moving about means she has not found a suitable nesting site. Nesting takes place way before laying. Then they usually don't move from there.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Have you tried laying a board over the moss? They seem to want to sqeeze into something like that rather than have a high roof of a "nest" box..

Any type of board will work. Glass, wood, plastic top from rubbermaid if you have nothing heavier. just put a small stone on top to weigh it down. If you do that i bet she will lay in the next 24 hours. the fact she is moving about means she has not found a suitable nesting site. Nesting takes place way before laying. Then they usually don't move from there.

What she has, with the lid on; rather a tight squeeze. This is under the box hide. The other picture with the lid off was just to show her in blue, then the lid went back on. She does go in it. It is under the big cardboard hide.

She seems more interested in the pan of moss her water bowl was formerly sitting in so I have taken your advice and placed a heavy rectangular glass casserole dish over it, after moistening the moss lightly.

As soon as I put the casserole dish she was under it.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

try just putting a glass/board, lid ect directly on top of the moss. they will crawl underneath and make a nest. This is what makes them secure. you will get eggs sooner than the 10 days (10 days = old shoebox method).

You will also see them create this nest days before the pre egg lay shed. They really seem to like that they dug their own little nesting spot and just stay put in it.

A nervous--cruising female means that is past due her egg lay date, means she is desperate and you have not given her what she needs. The worst case scenario with lay boxes is the snake rejects them so badly they lay in a water bowl. Or underneath the laybox or even worse yet, dump her eggs all over the cage.

now some are more particular on what nesting site they prefer. Some like the glass or different medium.. but the great thing is recognizing what the snake is trying to tell you. then just adjust and try different ways to get her to settle down.

the board ontop of moss works great fro most of my snakes. And it is very simple. Just throw the moss in 9or other favorite laying mixture) and then toss a large board on top. I also place the water dish on top of the board. It satys clean that way and the snakes laying baord is more weighted down.

If your snake has settled down to its new found glass dish on top of the tray/dish, then don't disturb her. Try the board ontop of moss next time. I think the snakes will lay earlier (which is better for the eggs and the snake)and they feel more secure with a more appropriate nest site. Some lay 1 day after they shed-WHICH IS A GOOD THING!

remember what is asthetically pleasing to you may not be to the snake. What matter is FUNCTIONALITY!
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www.Bluerosy.com

The 10 day thing is what I have read many times. But the snake begged to differ.

I have given Zunchara the same set up with my other casserole dish, and put the water bowl on top as you suggest. Thank you so much for your excellent help!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Forgot to mention, she is not now with any other snakes in the Glad container photo, that is just an older picture to show the Glad container with the lid on it.

Just checked; she is well under the casserole dish, like "Now THIS is more like it!" LOL!

I really thought she would like her old moss hide (with the lid on of course) but she seems to have chosen this other place. At least this way I can easily see when the eggs have arrived. I'll do a similar set up for my other female once she does her pre-lay shed.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Maybe I didn't explain this part well enough. So i will reiterate.

It should NOT take kings 10 days to lay after shed. It is more natural for them to lay before that. With a proper set up and if the snake is allowed to nest it can be 1-2-3 days after shed.

10 days after shedding are what is considered the norm in the hobby. But that is not what is best for the snake or the eggs. This '10" day period comes from people not providing a good nesting site.

You also want to set up the nesting site before the shed. Not after.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Yes, I did go ahead and give my other female another nesting site even though she has not shed, or gone blue, yet. Some big experts do say that it is normal for snakes to lay 10 to 20 days after the pre-lay shed. But if the snake is in a dry tub with no moist nest site, maybe that is how they got that idea? Whatever, it can't hurt to have everything sorted in advance. Both snakes checked out their new nesting spots and seemed satisfied. I would have used a board instead of the casserole dishes but I don't have any clean scrap lumber; used it all for kindling this winter.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Some big experts do say that it is normal for snakes to lay 10 to 20 days after the pre-lay shed]

Yes i know. LOL! We have some people here who revere those "experts".

But again. What i have to say and what FR has to say on the laying time is nonesense.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Gerold Merker:
Breeding Pyros:
Developing eggs will become apparent by the end of four weeks. Many gravid females become very distended by the end of the two month gestation. Without exception a female will have a shed within a period of 10 - 21 (average: 14) days prior to egg-laying. Females will usually utilize a next box containing damp paper towels or sphagnum moss to lay her eggs. Clutch sizes have range one - eight eggs, with an average of 4 eggs.

According to Gerold she is right on schedule. Maybe pyros are different than getula, ect? I have three Chiricahuas of his; wonderful little snakes!

Anyway, I have further improved the females' preferred nest sites by putting a piece of rigid black plastic (the cut out lid part of a storage container) in their casserole dishes to make it dark in there. Then put the water bowl on top of that.

Dotz is going to lay her clutch in there so now all I have to do is wait for her to get thin looking again. Then I will know to look for the eggs.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Yep...Gerald used the ole shoebox full of moss and got eggs on average at 14 days....Just like everyone else that does it the cookie cutter way.......

if you turn half of the enclosure into a nesting site your female will lay much much sooner.....I had some last year lay 4 days after shedding........Most around 7 but nearly all under 10......

21 days is a long time for that female to be without a meal, especially with all her nutrients be drained from the eggs inside her........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

21 days is a long time for that female to be without a meal, especially with all her nutrients be drained from the eggs inside her........

It isn't that big breeders are stupid. They just have not evolved. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.

What it boils down to is few people have the ability to change. Most stay with what they were initially indoctrinated into.

If you provide IMPROVED nesting sites and keep the snakes with their mates year round it causes less stess and on the female and a male will also not miss the females ovulation window a 2nd or 3rd time.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>21 days is a long time for that female to be without a meal, especially with all her nutrients be drained from the eggs inside her........
>>
>>It isn't that big breeders are stupid. They just have not evolved. You can't teach an old dog new tricks.
>>
>>What it boils down to is few people have the ability to change. Most stay with what they were initially indoctrinated into.
>>
>>
>>If you provide IMPROVED nesting sites and keep the snakes with their mates year round it causes less stess and on the female and a male will also not miss the females ovulation window a 2nd or 3rd time.
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>>www.Bluerosy.com
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Dotz is getting very close. Her nest is ready and she has accepted it. After she lays she will be reunited with her mate and once the other female Zunchara has laid her clutch she too will be reunited with the other two. I like having them together, and they seem to like that, too.
I am prone to thinking outside the box, and just because something has been done a certain way since Moses was a teenager, doesn't mean it is the only way. Some of Bluerosy's ideas seem sort of weird but make perfect sense in an intuitive way.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

>>Dotz is getting very close. Her nest is ready and she has accepted it. After she lays she will be reunited with her mate and once the other female Zunchara has laid her clutch she too will be reunited with the other two. I like having them together, and they seem to like that, too.
>>I am prone to thinking outside the box, and just because something has been done a certain way since Moses was a teenager, doesn't mean it is the only way. Some of Bluerosy's ideas seem sort of weird but make perfect sense in an intuitive way.

Don't forget to feed the heck out of her after she lays.....She's going to be starving......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Don't forget to feed the heck out of her after she lays.....She's going to be starving......
The mice are shaking in their boots! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.