Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Rick Staub asked brought up a good question from a post below.

Why did the colubrid market die off several years ago?

IMO it was the codom traits in Ball Pythons. Which makes raising and producing new morphs much quicker. The big money returns is raising and producing new morphs every 6 months.

You can't do that with reccessive traits.

That is my opinion. What is yours?
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www.Bluerosy.com

I don't think it's dead...just on life support

There's still some colubrids that seem to do well; mussuranas, there's a handful of morphs in pyros, albino king rats, some old world rat snakes...they don't bring thousands each but they're not dirt cheap either...rhino rats and mandarin rats are still a few hundred a piece, albino king rats are a couple hundred, coxi are a few hundred.
oh and hognose...but that seems like ball pythons 2.0

But I don't think it's the ball pythons morph mix that did it, at least not entirely. If there was a demand among people for them, even as pets, there'd be higher prices wouldn't there?
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

Yes I agree that there are some colubrids that still bring a good price. But they are rare and far and few bewteen.

The hognose market is one that seems to go beyond the rarity with new morphs being added.

But back in the day every type of king, ratsnake etc sold off the tables. people asked a premium and they sold quick. I remember the hypo brooks having a wait list and people crowding around the table of Doug beards table hoping to get at least one for $700. each. at Orlando.

Also colubrids in general (not just morphs) sold at shows to the point vendors went home with very little. I think the tables started turing around 2002. But definetly when the big Expo was still in orlano. Kingsnakes just blew off the tables no matter what you had.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I think the Eastern Indigo would be a good thing to produce, although kind of a problem for folks in Florida, were many of the big snake breeders live. This snake seems to be everybody's dream snake of late.

I have a friend who has recently acquired a large number of breeder corn snakes in all sorts of beautiful morphs. Hope he does well in the market. He got them from a person who was bailing on the business.

Maybe keeping snakes is one of those fad things that intrigue the general public for awhile, like certain dog breeds, then decline to just the dedicated hobbyists. We need Disney Studios to make a cute movie about king snakes! LOL! Like Old Yeller or 101 Dalmatians.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

just don't shoot them in the end. I've quit watching movies where the animal stars die cause I hate crying. *%#@ Old Yeller and Red Fern and Marley and Me.

I don't think snakes ever achieved fad status like green igs did though (and thank god for that!).
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

the market died , period...balls sell, but you have to drop prices every three weeks...seriously....one morph I had this year , black pastel het ghost...males...sold for 450 at the start of the season...now...you can't sell them at 200....just an example....colubrids died...corns at $3 wholesale...made me get rid of albut all of them, hondos...bred to death...sell for 20 -25 wholesale...most colubrids sell for 10....and the hundred dollar stuff...well...let's think...amel Korean rats...I got a male anf het female...paid a few (3-350 ) hundred for them....now you see them online for dirt....and hypo black rats....my adult female just died...don't know why...but it doesn't bother me when they sell for $25 retail on here....it sucks.....(I think she got the inside of her throat slit by eating a chinese hamster bakwards a couple days ago>???)...

anyways...all snakes dropped...noone has money, noone ahs a job....people are getting ripped by the government and their employers ...wages dropped, insurance up....they keep 20 snakes and think they are nuts...whereas we used to keep 500 snakes and think we were nuts...LOL...(I got sane, under 200 now)...

...hopefully as people drop out the prices of some stuff will rise again......some won't...and hopefully too many species and morphs don't disapear altogether....

....(OH...balls...11 year old kids asked mommy for $ and a rack, were told online how to breed them, and that in 2 years females can breed at 1200 grams, and males at less then a year and 400 grams...and it went downhill from there)....
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........JY

The market is not dead people. We are in a serious recession! People are holding on to their money, because they are unsure how this is all gonna end up? They are nervous, as they see gas prices soar, and food prices rise. I have been selling Corn snakes here lately with out even reall trying. Yeah there onlt 50 bucks, but hey like I said I'm not even trying, and the Corn Market is in serious trouble, right? I also believe what Jimmy said, about much of it having to do with marketing. Also Shipping prices have gone up. Matbe the lower priced items will sell better for a while till the economy picks up. There is a co-dom Florida King by the way, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Jorge,
You selling Corn snakes doesn't surprise me. You have two excellent things going for you: 1) Your passion. I don't always agree with you but your passion is contagious!!!! I have yet to purchase snakes from you (I think that might change this season!!!!)but I can imagine that you take care of your customers and customer service is so important. and 2) You are raising excellent stock!!! I have my eye on your Miami Corns and Abbott Line Corns. So maybe you have the key!!! BTW--I don't give compliments unless I believe them. But then look at me. FR has been an important friend for over 40 years and I even like BR and Billy plays awesome music!!!! So who knows.

Pat G-C

Pat your too kind! I appreciate your opinion always! I'm gonna check out Billy's music in a few minutes too.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I'd prefer to not think of any markets, really. It has taken something away from my original thoughts and intents, ya know?
Enjoy the animals...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Exactly my point/position in my post below responding to Rainer's question Mark. I agree whole heartedly.

Mark, I know I do enjoy what I keep! Some of what I keep if not all I couldn't afford years ago....so now I have the chance to work with them....I think my aim at the market thread aspect is there are still many people interested in snakes but most are turning away from Lampro/colubrid in general....So I think it's good to discuss what it would take for people to own some of the stuff that they can find in a short distance or even a family vacation...Cheers!
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Jimmy Tintle

I could not agree more, as it relates to the economic state we're in right now. It seriously blows.

>>I could not agree more, as it relates to the economic state we're in right now. It seriously blows.

This is the main reason that everything is at a choke hold1 Not just snakes, but everything that is not a necessity.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

the price crash in the colubrid market when he lowered his prices years ago?

Ok, I am going to take a different approach on this one and try to stay directly on the business aspect of things. I want it to be known that I personally don't talk to any of the big breeders or pay really close attention to what's flying of the table at shows. With that said, I am an outsider looking in.

People can say it's all about supply and demand, which in fact it is, but can have some weird twists.....Especially in the snake world...Hobbies have extreme moves to the upside and then extreme moves to the down before they level off....I would suggest to any you that were in the hobby from the late '80s through the 90's. You will probably never see that again....There just isn't the excitement to own reptiles, period. The mass media refers to our hobby as Dangerous,Crazy,Drug Addicted,tattoo covered people. None the less, When was the last time TMZ showed a star or publically person at reptile show? If ever? I know Leonardo DiCaprio was at a show buying tortises. Never hit main stream...That's the first curse on our hobby...

Politicians, and the good for the earth animal rights activists, are against anyone caring for animal that doesn't have fur or 4 legs. The animal rights activists have they backing of the dumb down public to support their uncontrolable lobbying. PETA is a disaster if anyone follows them would know. They kill more animals then save.( I won't go any further than that)

Now for the third, with every extreme move in a hobby or business, the crooks seem to flourish for a while with out getting noticed. It seems to me that in this hobby there are more than any other.(that may be biased as this is one of my only hobbies). Pain stakingly selling poor quality animals to people that don't even have the means of taking care of them. Or the knowledge. We are in the world of impulsive buyers. How many of you turned down selling an animal for a thoousand dollars to just anyone? My first snake was a garter that I caught. My first purchase for a snake was an amel het for anery corn. Big bucks at that time and I researched everything I could to make sure he flourished.Anyway, these crooks sell to people and rip them off, just gives a bad name to people interested in the hobby. (I am not saying all the time, but I have talked to people that just keep _______ because some knucklehead sold them an imported or diseased snake that wasn't eating for a couple of hundred and told them they can make their money back in a few short months..BS) They hurt the hobby.

And lastly but not the least, RECESSION, we all feel it. Some of us more so than others. Prices come down, to meet demand, and when people don't have the extra $400.00 to spend. Things get cut, I have watched a strictly reptile store here in FL that was open for 13 yrs close its doors...Why? because all he sold was feeders for 2 years. Just doesn't cut it.

Two words - Video Games Do I need to explain? I will touch on it anyway.Parents think of them as a baby sitter instead of sending their kids outside for the weekend like I was...Outside = Nature = finding snakes = interests.....I do a "All American Teach In" every year at my daughters school. I have kids in that school see me in the grocery store and say "MOM! MOM! that's the guy with the snakes, can I talk to him?" Causes interests in kids which are our next destination.

Now, comes the part for the colubrid market alone....BP's and Western hogs, take a majority of the $$$(remember this is what I see) FL kings are getting pretty close to some of you talented guys out there. I think everyone is stuck on the morph craze still, but locality and wild pheno types, are becoming the discussion. Which in turn helps them out, it causes a interest. Whether people turn to it or not, it's up to how it is marketed....By causing arguements, people turn their noses. If we keep it positive we will get positive results!

John L,Don Shores,Shannon B, Lee Abbott, Ryan Hoyer and the list goes on.( I know there are many more, these are just some of the guys I have dealt with lately) You guys have some really nice animals and are very knowledgeable and trusted.....Your good for the Hobby! I think if we all can get along and put our minds together to market our hobby we can get more people interested in a low cost, exciting, self gratifying Hobby!

I think I have rambled on long enough, I just think we need to overcome all the negatives and focus on the positives of the Hobby! A great way for families with or even without, to have and enjoy one of our great rights! Be able to keep snakes!
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Jimmy Tintle

Excellent ramble, Jimmy!!!! I know few if any answers, but I do know that people want "pretty" snakes ( I will forever wonder over the appeal of Fat and Stumpy!!!!)and that probably means that more plain forms will start disappearing from the hobby.. This wouldn't be bad except as more and more habitat disappears Captive Breeders may be the only source of specimens of some drab types.

Pat G-C

Thanks Pat! I was hoping there would be more of a brainstorm after that post but I guess not....to long? LOL Thanks again!
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Jimmy Tintle

as I've said before...we sell quality healthy animals to people then tell them exactly how to keep and bred them for themselves...in no time they are next to each other at the shows or are selling to pet shops etc. too to get a few bucks to offset their feeding/keeping expenses or whatever..There are fewer new buyers in relation to new sellers....Many of the high dollar BP "sales" at shows are to other vendors and more often may be trades....
Pet shops are having hard times selling animals and many get by on just food/feeders to pay the rent.
I dunno.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I guess it is sad for the big breeders, that's a tough one for sure.
Looking at it from a purely monetary thing is certainly a very valid concern. Especially for the people that have made the jump for personal, important income.
We have benifited/seen a lot of great strides in the hobby like racks and great cage makers. Truly cool individuals.

As much as I have enjoyed the benefits of the hobby going pro I have always had this nagging uncomfortableness with it going mainstream. Going to shows and seeing folks buy little corn snakes for their kids like goldfish at a fair or the millions of baby turtles that used to be sold like so many hot wheels cars to placate whining children.

I remember when serious hobbyists used to just trade amongst themselves or just give awesome animals to each other. The animals had no significant value unless you were serious and just loved that particular species.

Ever wonder where all these animals you bred are going and where they are now? I honestly don't like to think about it.

I will like my animals and enjoy working with them whatever, have for years. I have seldom had a time in my life where I didn't keep something. I just love them and they are a fixture in my life. Same with a lot of others here. They are not a passing fad or a living toy.

I cringe at the idea of a celebrity getting a snake just so others jump on the bandwagon to be like them and they die a slow horrible knick knack on the shelf death.

We all appreciate that they make our lives more interesting and colorful and what starts as a fad can turn into a real respectful hobbyist.

Like a lot of you, reptiles are an extension for me liking nature. I love watching birds, photography ,appreciate plants and like hiking and grew up watching Wild Kingdom etc. For me, Reptiles were a way to bring the love and beauty of the outdoors inside to appreciate. Reptiles are just cool!

Shouldn't herps be more than an accessorie or fashion for a tatooed/peirced kid? ( Tattoo and peirce whatever. its your bussiness and life. not my point )

It does stink for the folks who are trying to eek out a living though.

As much as I have enjoyed the benefits of the hobby going pro I have always had this nagging uncomfortableness with it going mainstream. Going to shows and seeing folks buy little corn snakes for their kids like goldfish at a fair or the millions of baby turtles that used to be sold like so many hot wheels cars to placate whining children.
Should I be so fortunate as to get baby pyros this year (my first attempt at breeding and also a first for my snakes) I will be keeping the young. I would hate to think of my babies going to someone who would not give them at least as good a life as I do. Obviously I am not in this for the money! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Bob I don't want to se you on "Animal Horders", lol! Who am I to talk, I have over 200 hundred snakes right now.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Ha! No, I work real hard at keeping the collection small. I would love to keep everything but these days I just keep things I like. Especially things I kept as a kid even if everbody else thinks they are Ho-hum. My days of the big colection are over! LOL I get overwhelmed with too many cages, odors and chaos and it erodes my calm relaxing reason for keeping them in the first place! LOL

Believe it or not, I find if I look at an animal that appeals to me I ask myself, "Do I really like this enough to clean its cage 500 times?"
It helps me walk away from some beautiful animals! LOL

Your enthusiasm IS contageous!

I know lol! I am still trying to get it out of my system after a few years of sabatical. I'm jumping in with both feet this time, and it's a buyers market right now. Snakes I've always wanted are affordable right now. I will eventually trim back and keep the best of my best. I kope, that is the plan anyway, lol. Hopefully I can be a little more like you, but right now I'm having fun. When it begins to be a chore then I will cut back. I was actually directing it at our multi named BOB, who said he was going to keep all his Pyro babies,lol. but your answer is welcome too!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Hey, what's the matter with keeping all your pyros??? I kept all 20 of mine.....and still bought some more.....nothing wrong with keeping them all....BOB, keep them! I did!

LOL
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Jimmy Tintle

>>Hey, what's the matter with keeping all your pyros??? I kept all 20 of mine.....and still bought some more.....nothing wrong with keeping them all....BOB, keep them! I did!

I plan on keeping ALOT of mex mex back......Some entire clutches......With their ontogenesis you never know which ones are going to be what I am after.........

BTW....Some think this Hypo-E Mex Mex trait is Codom......we'll see after the eggs hatch and the snakes shed multiple times.....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I am doing the same with my knobs too. I am thinking the orange coloration is co dom also.(Check out the one Shannon posted in mountain king section) I bred to high orange adults together and have some variation on saddle color....Some red some orange...It also might be because of the hypo gene influence....Who knows, Man I love this Hobby!
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Jimmy Tintle

I know lol, I was just pulling Bobs leg. I have kept all my locality Corns so I can see what they look like as adults. I haven't sold any cause they're not for sale, lol. Some animals that go thru a big change as You guys have mentioned almost demands that you keep them for at least a year or two.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Hey, what's the matter with keeping all your pyros??? I kept all 20 of mine.....and still bought some more.....nothing wrong with keeping them all....BOB, keep them! I did!

LOL
Amen to that! I have 14 pyros now, and if this breeding thing bears fruit the numbers could increase to 20 at least, possibly 25. We wont mention the pituophis...
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Good luck, Hope it goes well for you. Sounds like your snakes are fortunate to have somone that dotes on them.

Thanks, Bob! My friend Larry says any animal I get has won the lottery. I guess I am a real critter person at heart. Now if I could just get the snakes to eat veggies instead of mice...I feel bad having to kill the mice but one can't argue with Mother Nature.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

True, I have enjoyed my snakes more since going over entirely to frozen stuff in a little freezer downstairs that paid for itself. LOL
Breeding your own can be pretty stinky. Cost effective and sometimes fun. but stinky!

Its dead or dying because its so easy to breed colubrids. Years ago, those who bred rare morphs, had confidence they could make it work, yet others did not. So investment was based on skill.

These days, everybody breeds colubrids and they know if someone gets a new morph, they cannot sit on them, so they will wait them out until the price drops and of course those folks oblidge them and drop the price within minutes.

When I first started this morph market way back when, I had a rule, I must be able to sit on the offspring at least one year and not drop the price. That would be impossible now. Now a days, if you do not lower the price to sell them, your next door neighbor will.

In the early days, there was a certain amount of control the breeders or marketers had. Today with the internet, everybody knows everything and that control is lost.

Let me use a very old example. At one time, I produced and had the only available Black thayeri in the world. Then all of a sudden those black thayeri appeared on several others lists. hmmmmmmm yet I was the only one who had them. I asked a decent price, much more then most colubrids now, add inflation, and maybe twenty or thirty times more. Well folks would say, FR why do you ask so much, as so and so has them on his list and that other fella does too. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm why do they have them on their lists? So I call them and ask, why do you have them on your list, the answer was simple, well if someone wants one, I will buy one from you and resale it to them. After all I bought all these other snakes from you, you would give me a deal wouldn't you. Well of course I would,

That is actually very meaningful. As the market was mostly to other breeders and dealers. In the old days, you had to mail out lists. Now days, everything is known, within seconds, even if its wrong.

So its like the old days, only a million times faster. These days, a new morph gives you some months to take advantage of your fortune. Good luck with that.

So now I sell mice, all snakes no matter how rare or what morph, have to eat. And they eat the same.

So you guys better get on the ball and keep making morphs, even if you do not make money, I will, Or other mouse breeders will.

Sounds great but there are thousands of people selling mice too, lol. I just got an email from someone recently almost begging me to buy mice, but I breed my own.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Yo FR,
You know, I don't think I ever thanked you for all the neat stuff you gave me (although you wouldn't even sell me that monster Rosy just sitting there beside the road). As Jorge points out, there are a bunch of Rodent breeders out there but they are not all the same (I don't have the time to breed my own, nor do i have a spouse open to the odiferous nature of rodents. Her allowing me to store mice next to the peas and carrots is enough!!!). I went through a bunch of Rodent outfits before I settled on the one that I have been using for more than ten years now. Do they have the cheapest rodents???? Nope, but they know my name and can identify my voice on the phone. That's worth the extra shekels to me!!!!

Pat G-C

Pat, you so right! Service is at least 80% of the deal! For me anyway.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

It would change everything.

With the information age (internet) it is also about investment and information exchange to make some good money while enjoying what your hobby is.

"Its dead or dying because its so easy to breed colubrids."

So what do you think would happen if there were a few codom traits in kingsnakes? Don't you think the same thing would happen as in ball Pythons that attacts the $$ people. I mean the whole codom thing is fast and snowballs into some outrageously wild stuff. All in a very short time period. When you are breeding reccessive . it takes YEARS to just hatch out one money animal.

The thing with Codon traits is you can get buy a baby odom BP male. Raise it up in 6 montha and it will breed a rack adult female BP's that you just picked up at a show for $50. to $75 each.

That is super quick returns! And then a percentage of the money made is directly invested right back into other new BP codoms morphs. I know it sounds crazy but that is what is happeneing right now during this reccession.

That is why i think there is so much money floating back and forth with the PB's. OIt is the same money coming from sales. I know some BP breeders who are not known. Yet they are making big bucks in the last 2 years.

So the answer is we need some codom traits in kingsnakes to start things up again. NO?
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer good point, there are a few co-dom traits in Lampro that I know of. Some that haven't even been discussed publically....and if you add in some recessives to that it could be and extremely profitable business, but I think we would need more co-doms to pop up like in balls, to keep the excitement going...I am working with the striped phase ruthveni which is somewhere inbetween co dom and recessive.(from what I can gather)

But why hasn't that trait took off? (John, hush no need to post that name here, trying to leave that out of that line)Heck, L.ruthveni are not as plentiful as they used to be....
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Jimmy Tintle

but I think we would need more co-doms to pop up like in balls, to keep the excitement going

Yes we do!
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Rainer good point, there are a few co-dom traits in Lampro that I know of. Some that haven't even been discussed publically....and if you add in some recessives to that it could be and extremely profitable business, but I think we would need more co-doms to pop up like in balls, to keep the excitement going...I am working with the striped phase ruthveni which is somewhere inbetween co dom and recessive.(from what I can gather)
>>
>>But why hasn't that trait took off? (John, hush no need to post that name here, trying to leave that out of that line)Heck, L.ruthveni are not as plentiful as they used to be....
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>>Jimmy Tintle

LOL....I won't mention that guy......
I think the striped gene in Ruthveni is going to take off like wildfire....especially when an amel super stripe is produced and I am glad you are working with the project as well Jimmy.......

Again guys.....It is ALL about marketing.......
How do you price you snakes? There is no set rule.....Market value? What if you are the only one in that market? The snakes are worth what you can get for them.....If a buyer takes your $1200 price tag then that is what the snake is worth......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"The snakes are worth what you can get for them.....If a buyer takes your $1200 price tag then that is what the snake is worth......"

Thanks and Thanks!

I think what we have to remember is that the disposible income that many had years ago is not with us today....So $1200 to one may not come around again for a while....Jobs report looked good up until this last week, housing is still in shambles, and foreign investments are low.....So now is the time to be buyers for round number two...may not be as extreme as we saw in the late 90's or early 2000's but it will come and demand will pick up again....

Also some things to consider is most countries are putting a stop to exportation of animals and what we have in the hobby now may only be our last hope....I recently read an article that China was considering shutting it's exports or atleast controlling them.....
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Jimmy Tintle

Hi Rainer,

As a bp guy who is first and foremost a ks guy, I have found that the co-dom market first sounded the deathknell for bps. The scenario that you suggested occured, then every sh!tb@g with with normal females jumped in. Luckily, those of us that saw this coming raised and sold 100s of normal females as the $$boys arrived. Luckily, we still made our money. But, within 2 years of those events happening, bp prices tanked. They haven't and won't recover, nor should they. Co-doms turned bps into the hognose market that is now in play. Hognose snakes, with their big clutches, have sort of paralled the bp co-dom market - lots of morph snakes availible in number from guys that need to pay electric, gas and rodent bills. These snakes are sold behind the scenes cheaply. When this occurs in number, the price suddenly tank in a short period of time. The same thing occurs, as I'm sure you've noticed, with king snakes. As a couple of skilled keepers get them, their value drops like the perverbial Led Zeppelin - great band, $hitty business plan.
The motto should be: If you want to make $$, risk it early and often..and have a trust fund or a back-up plan.

Will

I am not sure i followed your post correctly.

Can you explain this a little more?

I have found that the co-dom market first sounded the deathknell for bps. The scenario that you suggested occured, then every sh!tb@g with with normal females jumped in. Luckily, those of us that saw this coming raised and sold 100s of normal females as the $$boys arrived. Luckily, we still made our money. But, within 2 years of those events happening, bp prices tanked. They haven't and won't recover, nor should they
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www.Bluerosy.com

Hi Rainer,

I just meant that co-dom mutations allowed a lot of folks to possess the morph animals without the typical work/time involved with recessive traits, which typically acts as a buffer zone (folks fall out of the equation). I guy/girl picks up a co-dom bp trait and they produce hundreds within 4 years, the same phenomoenan occurs with big clutch producing colubrids with a huge initial financial incentive. Within a short span of time, a huge turn around occurs in which a large number of morph offspring are pitched into the market (often lower than market price)...and naturally prices fall harder. That is all I'm trying to say. Lots of morph animals short turn over = crash!
Co-doms did it for bps and I see the same for hogs, just my opinion of course.

Will

If you have, say a male mojave ball...he can mate like 2-4 females (if younger and smaller, probably mates less, older he mates more). Normal ball pythons are DIRT cheap; you can find adult females on craigslist in most major cities for 30-50 dollars, from people that just want to get rid of them. So buy your codom male, as a baby, and buy 3-5 normal adult or subadult females. By the time the male is ready to go in 18-24 months, you should have 3-5 mates. One of 4 eggs should get you a morph, and you can just wholesale the normals off for dirt. So if you get (conservative) 4 eggs/female from 3 females no more than 2 years after buying that codom, even if it's fallen in price by 50% you can break even on your purchase cost with the first clutch. Makes it very attractive as a money making scheme and got TONS of people that just wanted to turn a buck.

I have NOTHING against making a living at breeding snakes--I really want to one day. It's more fun than social work and database management, and it's something I don't totally suck at. But it certainly led to a lot of people wanting to jump in the pool, many of whom were lured pretty much entirely by dollar signs and don't seem to care much about the critters.

Whereas, if you want to breed recessives, you have to have at least 2 hets to produce anything, and one het one visual is a far better idea most of the time. It ups the required investment and means you cannot just mass produce them as quick--if you want anything you have to pay extra for hets (at least) rather than just picking up tons of normals.

>>
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

That is why I always like to buy multi hets or possible hets......You can get them at low prices and they pay for themselves.......at least the multi hets do....Possible hets possibly cannot....LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

that's what I got from Rainer...mulitiple possible hets.
Eggs are cooking, hope something proved out some PBs or Ghost would be great. Or maybe I win the Irish lotto and PB ghost pop out. Or I strike out and get DH hypo/axanthic (which is still fine).

And I got myself a mosaic female juvy coming in this week from Ben Seigel...gonna breed her next year I hope (already supposed to be 20" so should be good next year). Then I'll have some DH axanthic/mosaic to make some (hopefully) really neat looking snakes with black and blue mosaic patterns! I've loved how the axanthic male turned out and i'm glad I listed to him on getting one, it is prettier than I thought it'd be. And I have an albino female that should breed next year to my WS male for DH WS/albino to make albino whitesides next generation...I'm stoked.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

He had one that was smokin, with very bright colors. Did you get that one?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

2 of 4 eggs produces a morph. 1 of 4 is just bad luck.

I think he was just trying to be extremly conservative with numbers.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I have to be. My luck is so bad I could be the only entry into a contest and STILL lose! I've never won a raffle, drawing, etc. in my life.

The flip side is I can and do make my own luck in other ways (i.e. I go for what I want and I do my damndest to get it...once I know what I want which is the hard part).
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

I have to be. My luck is so bad I could be the only entry into a contest and STILL lose! I've never won a raffle, drawing, etc. in my life

That's funny because I feel much the same way.

the weird part is when it come to reccessive genes I have no luck with def hets but when it comes to possible hets I hit the jackpot every time.

Lat year i did many MANY def triple het breedings and almost had all normals (go figure....LOTS OF NORMALS!) but then when I hold back possible hets they alway turn out to be def hets and I get new stuff. Crazy!

For this reason pos hets are something I am always attracted to. With all the pos hets i worked with, i don't recall one time that they were not 100% def hets. I know , I know, hard to beleive. but that is the case with me.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I think it is because there are a lack of breeders....especially kingsnake breeders.....

It seems every newbie at every show sees Ball Pythons, Boas and Leopard geckos everywhere......and corns.....

So that is all they really know about snakes....If us kingsnake breeders marketed better and had better showings at expos people would know about the snakes we work with and want some.....

Most of my sales recently have been to folks on a couple of local Texas forums....they have never seen anything like the kings I am working with and lots of folks want them.....

I joined a couple of other small forums and again they have never seen the types of kings I work with......All anyone knows about the pet trade is boas and pythons.......Such beginner snakes in my opinion.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

"So that is all they really know about snakes....If us kingsnake breeders marketed better and had better showings at expos people would know about the snakes we work with and want some.....

John I second that, I too have been to a couple shows that only had your basic kings at best....I think back to some of the old days when you could go to a show and find almost any type of Lampro there was. (of course the extremely rare where not there) Now, you find the Cal kings (no cool morphs like Kerby has though),FL Kings.....In the past 2 years, I can count on one hand how many L.ruthveni,Greeri,mexmex, I have seen.

Other than Hondos, Sinnies, nelsoni, and maybe a few annulata's here and there....I have not seen any NA milks for sale at a show in two years. I have been to 17 different shows in that time and not one NA Milk....hmmmm?Why? Will the day come back to us when NA Milks are on tables?

Good post John!
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Jimmy Tintle

I think some of the guys with the NA Milks have their stock sold soon after, if not before the hatch. Also many of the smaller ones are not for beginners and they can be pricey. Red Milks are on my wish list.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Agreeable there Jorge!
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Jimmy Tintle

>>Agreeable there Jorge!

SO their market certainly is NOT dead........It's a niche......
I've been to hundreds of shows and I have NEVER seen a Zonata on anyone's table.......Lots of them are sold with waiting lists but I think that will soon change with the gifting concept......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yea, I am a little concerned for the gifting policy but don't quite understand the whole concept either....Or how it will affect the market...
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Jimmy Tintle

Careful. Getting off on that gifting tangent could get this whole thread deleted...lol.

Back in the early days, the internet changed the game. People were now made aware of reptile shows, and an untapped market of people was reached that wasnt reached in the old days by mailing lists. These people started finding out about snakes, going to shows, and seeing the old timers in the hobby making good money selling snakes.

I think this created its own market of people wanting to buy in and make money from selling snakes. That is when you saw the surge in the late 90s early 2000s. As more people got in, those were the people who used to be the buyers...they now had tables and became sellers. In a natural progression, the seller's market dried up as it became saturated.

We are now in a "corrective" phase for lack of a better term where those who just saw it as a way to make money are bailing. And to me, that was the key all along. The reason the market has dropped is because people were breeding solely based upon dollar signs and not due to interest or care of the animals.

I currently have only thayeri. But that is my choice due to my interest in the species and their genetics. If I were breeding strictly for money, thayeri would probably not be a wise choice to put all my eggs in one basket.

I think we are seeing a natural correction in the market for the hobby. It will settle back and find its balance within a few more years. Hopefully by then all those who were solely driven by dollar signs, and not by a true passion for their animals will have moved on to other pursuits. And the true passionate hobbyists will be left to promote our snakes to interested newcomers and each other.

>>
>>I think we are seeing a natural correction in the market for the hobby. It will settle back and find its balance within a few more years. Hopefully by then all those who were solely driven by dollar signs, and not by a true passion for their animals will have moved on to other pursuits. And the true passionate hobbyists will be left to promote our snakes to interested newcomers and each other.

I agree 100%! It's an ebb and flow, those who hold ground, will hold ground, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Buy low sell high, just make sure you know where the bottom is. Or how much risk your willing to take.....How many of you are willing to buy Gold at $1500 an ounce? When just a few short years ago it was worth $300? People make a killing and some will buy the top, I see money not being spent on Remodeling homes,Movie tickets,Going out to eat, etc....There is money out there, but cash is king! Society is spending there money on travel(soon to be curbed because of oil prices), family times, RV's....and hopefully pets in the near future. I am getting way off base sorry just my nature...
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Jimmy Tintle

Good points Jimmy. The rise in Gas prices might be a two edged blade. High Gas prices mean more stay at home. It also means great shipping prices!!!! More folks staying home means the $$$ spent on traveling could be used on "at home" projects, including Hobbies.I know personally I am thinking more about critters that might be had without paying shipping. Also means we might see a surge in local clubs selling to each other and cooperating with each other more.

Pat G-C

Great Post! I couldn't have said it better!!!
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Jimmy Tintle

Awesome post!!

Saturation is a big factor in this. I feel it is the major issue we are seeing. I have never seen so many colubrids for sale in my life. Not that it is a bad thing, as they all are beautiful beyond belief! But like you said, so many saw these breeders making some money, and then they wanted to do the same thing, which in itself is not a bad thing either.

Then, all of a sudden, the market has the most colubrids ever! For buyers now, it is definetely a great time. The BP market though is saturated as well, don't get me wrong.

One thing people who breed need to always remember, is that when a customer buys a pair of snakes off of you, and you plan on being around for a while, that customer will automatically become competition. Each time a pair of snakes is purchased, the competition just grows and grows.

Now, it is at an all time high. It is basically again, supply vs. demand. It is also the allmighty factor of how much is someone willing to pay for your animal. While some may be more than happy to shell out $50 for your animal, others may want to offer half. Then, it is up to you to make that decision on how long you want to keep feeding that animal and have it around. Selling any snakes at any time is never a guarantee.

The supply and demand issue is very evident at this time, but it still was around back in the mid-nineties, down here in Tx.. I think it was around 1995, when one breeder was trying to unload pueblan milks at a show I vended at for $20. No one bought them. Nice ones too. So many had them around here.

Another time, in 1996, a breeder behind me at a show I was vending was selling huge, yearling Cal kings for $15. Guess who sold more?? HAHA!!! Yep, he did. So many people had cal kings there, but his were the best bargain. What was really funny was that his breeding stock came from snakes from me years prior! HAHA! Here I am selling my cal kings for $25, and he is smoking everyone there on selling stuff! LOL! Oh well, you have good shows and bad shows.

Heck, one time, the same year in 1996, a breeder walked into a friend of mine's reptile shop, after he vended at a local show, and set a big box of baby colubrids down on the counter, and yelled out, " Take them! I can't sell any of them!! " and stormed out...... Needless to say, my friend was not too happy about this new random box of colubrid goodies.

So, with the case of supply vs. demand, I have seen it for a while. I feel this is a bigger issue than some may put into consideration. If people did not feel compelled to breed anything and everything they buy, there would be less competition.

Attention given to certain species that are not as common is something that can be helpful, in filling in a niche in the market that does not have as much competition. I know that one of my friends who breeds colubrids had his best year in Daytona this past year. He had some things that others don't have.

So, in all, it seems that the colubrid market is going thru a rough time. I say, breed what you love, and love what you breed. Develop backup plans to cover any down times with sales. If you are into it solely for money, you will be dissapointed. View making any money as an added bonus.

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Genesis 1:1

It was not just the colubrid market that failed. The boa market certainly tanked also. Sounds like the BP market as well from the posts below. FR is absolutely correct on this one. For boas, dominant morphs helped but so did technology, as many people are now breeding boas every year just like colubrids and the knowledge of how to breed them is available to everyone. Ten years ago the number of keepers breeding boas with any kind of consistency was much more limited. Combine more breeders with large litters and surplus goes through the roof. Prices for reptiles are driven by perception. Perception of rarity and perception of return on investment. Aside from a few exceptions, there is a low perception that any colubrid species out there will have a high return. And if you are buying into a new project, you know the value of the animals is going to drop fast. This lowers the entry price for any new morph since the window for recouping your investment is shortened. The lower price to get into a project further increases the number of breeders who can get in early on a project since it is more affordable. Who in their right mind is going to pay thousands of dollars to buy into the next albino tricolor to hit the market?

There is one other issue that I think has driven all markets down and that is the cost of shipping. It is very difficult to pay over $50, sometimes up to $90 for shipping especially when this is equal or only slightly less than the critter being bought. This has also made the local reptile shows more popular since people can go to the show and have a good time seeing everything, see the animals they want to purchase in person, and avoid shipping costs. Problem is the shows just do not reach as many buyers as the internet.
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Rick Staub