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The Trouble With Europe.........a bit long, but worth reading........

gailT Sep 28, 2003 10:37 PM

Forbes.com

Current Events

Paul Johnson, 10.06.03, 12:00 AM ET

Europe's Utopian Hangover

One thing history teaches, over and over again, is that there are no shortcuts. Human societies advance the hard way; there is no alternative. Communism promised Utopia on Earth. After three-quarters of a century of unparalleled sufferings, the Soviet Union collapsed in privation and misery, leaving massive Russia with an economy no bigger than tiny Holland's. We are now watching the spectacle of another experiment in hedonism, the European Union, as it learns the grim facts of life.

The EU is built on a fantasy--that men and women can do less and less work, have longer and longer holidays and retire at an earlier age, while having their income, in real terms, and their standard of living increase. And this miracle is to be brought about by the enlightened bureaucratic regulation of every aspect of life.

The EU is a French concept and is still largely run according to French ideas. And France is the archetypal EU country. If you have a regular job in France, your life is, in theory, lyrical. You work 35 hours a week. You generally get four weeks of holiday in August, plus a further three weeks throughout the year, in addition to 11 state holidays. Full medical care is provided, even in retirement. Retirement age varies, but it is now typically 55. Pensions may be two-thirds to three-quarters of a person's salary at the time of retirement.

Tarnished Image
All this is wonderful, but it is dependent, even in theory, on the European Union's expanding continuously, its economy running at full throttle, its productivity steadily increasing and a profound peace cocooning the world in a nest of luxurious tranquility. But in the real world, things are different. The EU has discovered, since the autumn of 2001, that it has little ability to determine events because its armed forces are small, underfunded, obsolete and ill-trained. Apart from making trouble at the UN, France and Germany--those two former military giants that once made the world tremble--have been mere spectators. Now France, followed by a still more reluctant Germany, is being obliged to take defense seriously for the first time in many years, thus upsetting all its budget calculations.

France received a shock this summer, when more than 10,000 of its elderly citizens died in distress during a heat wave--some while supposedly under medical care in hospitals. Thanks to the 35-hour workweek and the long August holiday, these institutions were short-staffed. The families of those who died were on holiday, too.

Yet another shock--and at the same time--the French government discovered that its unemployment-benefit plan for part-time workers in the entertainment industry, though generous, was underfunded and in danger of imminent collapse. The government suddenly decided to cut the benefits radically. As a result, the workers went on strike, and virtually all the great cultural festivals that are the pride of France's tourist industry had to be canceled.

Reality Bites
These are all symptoms of a painful disease, a continental depression born of the realization that EU prosperity is a house built upon sand. While the American economy is picking up, the EU's remains in stagnation, bordering on recession. The 35-hour workweek is splendid, provided you have a job. But what of the growing millions who are out of work and whose social security payments are now threatened with reduction or cut-off dates? Unemployment, already high, is rising in France and Germany.

In virtually every industry there are plans to shrink the work force. People have become too expensive, especially in France and Germany, where social security payments cost an employer almost as much as wages. In a desperate attempt to get its economy moving, France is set to cut income taxes, though this will raise its deficit to a level strictly forbidden by the rules governing the common European currency (the euro). France thus risks having enormous fines levied against it or, more likely, a collapse in confidence in the euro.

The truth is that the EU has been living beyond its means, and its bills are coming due. The biggest bill of all--the cost of generous state pensions, which in most EU countries are underfunded--is looming. It's true that most advanced countries are having difficulties meeting pensions because people are living longer and work forces are expanding more slowly (or not at all). Britain is running into a pension crisis. Most of those who banked on a healthy private pension for their old age are going to be disappointed, partly because returns on investments are so low and partly because the Labour finance minister, Gordon Brown, has been raiding the till by abolishing tax-free pension dividends. This is the issue that will lose Tony Blair the next election, as the pain of Labour's "pension raid" is felt. But at least Britain has a properly funded public pension plan. And the British economy is moving forward, perhaps not as fast as America's, but at a healthy and accelerating rate.

The omens for continental Europe, however, are sinister. The entire plan for perpetual improvement upon which the EU depends is based on continuous economic expansion. There is no provision for stagnation. As we see in Japan, once stagnation sets in, it can last many years. Americans should count their blessings, above all the supreme blessing of having an economy that is run by businessmen not bureaucrats, or that--under wise governance--runs itself.

Paul Johnson, eminent British historian and author.

Replies (62)

steve.AC Sep 28, 2003 11:03 PM

My Goodness

so they're saying that the USA doesn't have any baeurocrats

Now come on, that's a good one

steve

gailT Sep 28, 2003 11:35 PM

What's the problem.....too well written??? Not enough grammatical errors??? Truth hurt???

Read it again and make sure you have a box of kleenex beside you......once you face reality you'll need them.

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 08:18 AM

LOL.

ScottishCLK Sep 28, 2003 11:26 PM

Great post! Thanks for sharing.

gailT Sep 28, 2003 11:44 PM

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 06:52 AM

Too easy, lol.

sobek Sep 29, 2003 06:46 PM

I read your post, and respect that you brought something other then "kid games" to the conversation. But your post above now makes you a cheerleader.

Can you say: Gimme S-H-E-E-P whats that mean? Brain dead! And if you find snakes immature post amusing, then that lets every one know just how juvinile you truely are.

gailT Sep 29, 2003 11:57 PM

I am not a cheerleader...I was simply stating the fun I have reading the posts of SnakeDude and Scottish One....maybe I should have called you a ping pong ball being slammed back and forth by SnakeDude and Scottish One.

In reality, I don't really have to call you names such as "moron...idiot...dunce....pathetic fool....socialist....coward......antibiosis....etc...etc....etc...." Every time you post a message you reveal everything about yourself....and anyone that can read or should I say decipher your messages can make their own opinion of you. And let me say....you do have the right to your opinion, such as I do mine and so do others on these forums.....I don't agree with you or the other socialists on this forum but you are able to say how you feel because this is America. Personally, you are meaningless to me. You and your comrades can throw sticks and stones and do all the name calling you want....it is meaningless. I like to know how the enemy thinks and that is what I gain from reading your posts.

And just in case you don't know the definition of antibiosis:

Main Entry: an·ti·bi·o·sis
Pronunciation: -bI-'O-s&s, -bE-
Function: noun
Etymology: New Latin
Date: 1899
: antagonistic association between organisms to the detriment of one of them.

ScottishCLK Sep 30, 2003 09:29 AM

sobek Sep 30, 2003 11:56 AM

I like to know how the enemy thinks and that is what I gain from reading your posts.

So now I'm the enemy? And you call your self an American? You fell in line juss the way you were programed. You see thats one of the Best weapons this adminaistration has. Turning Americans against Americans, So that they are to busy fighting each other, to notice being stepped on. Get real! Opein your eyes to the bigger picture.

ScottishCLK Sep 30, 2003 12:11 PM

LISTEN UP CLASS!...
Its:
1) yourself, not your self
2) just, not juss
3) programmed, not programed
4) administration, not(lol) adminaistration
5) too. not to
6) open, not opein

DevinP Sep 30, 2003 10:01 PM

What kind of people do you hang around to draw the conclusion that Americans are "programmed" and can't think for themselves? And, if you'd open your eyes Fred, you'd see that the majority of Americans stand together behind thar Bush administration and are not "fighting each other". Take a pill Fred, your country is working just fine. Your "doom and gloom" comments are much more appropriate in a discussion about the precarious state of Europe.

Devin P.

steve.AC Oct 01, 2003 11:58 AM

It amazes me that you think the United states has to have all for one decisions and no oposing views, there's just no room in your mind for people who think differently is there.

We keep hearing that the USA is a free country, but when I see your replies I can clearly see that you think it ought to be something else.

Steve

sobek Oct 01, 2003 06:27 PM

you'd see that the majority of Americans stand together behind thar Bush administration.

Thats a joke right? Have you turned on the tv lately? Read the paper? More and more Americans are loosing fate in Bush. Even thoes that backed the war from get go.

ScottishCLK Oct 01, 2003 06:43 PM

You posted in the thread below that was initiated by Tommyboy. People took time to respond, and you disappeared. That was very disappointing as we were all anticipating your responses.I hope you and anyone else who reads this post will entertain that thread as it had some very interesting and provocative comments. Thanks in advance for your input to that thread.

Chris Kennard

DevinP Oct 01, 2003 07:32 PM

You are definitely a victim of what the Liberal media wants you to believe Fred. You are blinded silly with the hope that Bush will be replaced for obvious reasons, so it's no wonder that the latest round of Democratic child's play combined with the sensational liberal media, have worked like a charm on YOUR wishful mind. Bush 2004!

Devin P

ScottishCLK Oct 02, 2003 05:12 PM

SSSSHHHHHHHHHHH! Be vewy, vewy kwiet. Om' hunting wabbut...huhuhuhuh.

ScottishCLK Oct 02, 2003 05:13 PM

Where is dat wasc-wee wabbut!

H+E Stoeckl Sep 29, 2003 11:35 AM

and most of it is rendering the problems we are facing now correctly.

But one thing has not be mentioned:

If things will develope the way it is predicted in this article, the people here will not have a worse life then the citizens in the U.S. have now.

While your country has spent every cent to become a military giant most of the European countries gave the money to the benefit and welfare of their people.

Meanwhile more than a generation of citizens of the EU have enjoyed the benefits of our system.

If it will crash we will get the same conditions like the people in the U.S. (only 10 days of vacation, a lot of people without a health insurance or at least an insufficient health insurance and going to the work until the day one dies).

Only the small upper class in the U.S. has a life-style that is comparable to the life-style of the average people here.

At least we have enjoyed the benefits for several decades. And if our system crashes we simply need to get used to your life style. But I doubt it will crash. A few corrections and a slight decrease of our benefits will solve the problems IMHO.

As a last note I would not be gleeful if I were you since the so-called war on terrorism and the maintenance of your huge army costs more money than even such an economy like the U.S. can bear for a longer time.
-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 12:21 PM

I'm relieved that you guys are rendering the problem correctly. Just out of curiosity, what exactly is your government doing to fix the problem? Also, since you liken your economy to ours, I'm curious as to your thoughts on something else. Everywhere I go I see new developements with brand new beautiful houses being built and sold to young families who appear to be successful. Do you see alot of that where you live?

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 12:23 PM

One more thing. You seem fixated on the "vacation" issue. It seems to be very important. What do you do with all those days off?

H+E Stoeckl Sep 29, 2003 04:51 PM

is trying to cure the symptoms right now instead of reforming the entire system which would probably lead to a little bit inferior but fit-for-the-future social system.

This is because reforming the system would mean to hurt the people and lose votes.

But sooner or later there is no other way than to reform the system and in my opinion it will happen sooner. Many people believe that the two major political parties will finally cooperate and do it together.

Until then only slight changes which don't hurt the people too much will be made.

The problem with our political parties is that they follow the interests of the parties first and only afterwards the interests of our country.

In Germany (and I think that is also valid for most countries in Europe) homes for families are built much more stable than in the U.S.

For instance I had a very embarrassing experience during my first stay in the USA: I was invited by a friend in Florida and when I entered his home and closed the door I was accustomed to the heavy doors we have here in Germany. So I closed it with the momentum that I would use for closing the door in a German home. The door closed with a thunder-like clatter that I was afraid the home would collapse.

The houses here last two or even 3 generations. But also a lot of new ones are built. But here in Germany houses are very expensive since Germany is densly populated. A new home here costs (depending on the region) US$ 450.000 - 650.000.

Regarding the 6 weeks of vacation: You can travel to another country for 3 weeks and have one week to recover from the trip.

And for the remaining 2 weeks which are often taken in the winter time one can go skiing or doing some work in the home.
-----
Beware of Commies and Mutts!

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 05:19 PM

LMAO! You are truly one of the most entertaining people on here. In any case, I must have totally misinterpreted your post when you said something about "rendering the problems we are facing now correctly. I assumed by your optimistic post with regard to the comparison of the state of our two countries(our's being worse than yours according to your post,lol), that you were already making changes. "Trying to cure the symptoms" is a whole nother ball game.
The "tale" of the door that almost collapsed a whole house is hilarious! Where do you get such great stories, LOL? Perhaps it's all part of a scheme concocted by the master of schemes himself. Bush booby-traps all of the doors in the U.S. and then pays the citizens to invite foreigners over for tea and WHAM! Down comes the house right on top of you. Mmmmuuuuuuuuuahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!

By the way, the house I currently live in was built in the eighteen hundreds, and is still standing tall and just as strong as ever. Kinda' puts a damper on your theory huh? Also, many of the houses being built here are around the same price you referred to.

SnakeFeller Sep 29, 2003 05:27 PM

This just in Stroeckl: We are the greatest country on the planet. Our degree of freedom is second to none. Our military is second to none, and woth every penny of tax dollars that we spend. Our ecomomy is second to none. And our people ar, by far, the happiest people on the face of the earth.

You, on the other hand, live in a country which only recently eliminated a wall that separated one side from the other. Welcome to the 1970's Jackass! Your wonderful country is probably about the size of one of our medium sized states. Wow, you are quite the powerhouse! Ha Ha disillusioned one. Don't compare your failing pathetic welfare state to our centuries old successful way of life. You are the loser here and we are the winner. You seem to have that fact backwards.

I'll be here laughing at you when your welfare state comes crashing down on your wooden head. In the meantime, it's very entertaining watching little arrogant children like you talk like giants. We will never look up to your struggling and doomed little country.

Snake Feller

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 05:35 PM

Don't sugar-coat it. Say what you mean, lol.

sobek Sep 29, 2003 07:23 PM

Good post. I'm sure they will answer it with a bunch of name calling, and subject diversions. They will rant on with a bunch of nonsense not pertaing to this topic, and declair their self the victor. These people only know what they are told by the money hungry leaders of are country. They refuse to discuss topics that cause them to think. Instead they spout off nonsense ,and pat each other on the back for being equaly as naieve. They act as if Bush is their pimp, and any one who disagrees with him, MUSt be anti American. They cant quite grasp the fact that SPEAKING out, and holding leaders ACCOUNTABLE for their actions IS AMERICAN. I bet these are the same people who duct tape their windows with plastic wrap every time we have a code orange, or was that blue, or maybe peach. The problem is they are scared, and their president as done nothing to help except inforce their fears to meet his own agenda. There is an old saying: "Fear controls the people" These are the same people that if told Bush was lieing, and stealing money from U.S. citizens, would say "He is the president, he must be doing it for our own good.."

P.s. Did you know some Americans suffocated in their homes after Bush said there was going to be another attack. They duct taped up the windows, and doors in fear. Bushs reigiem then had to revise their statement, saying Dont jump the gun just yet.

sobek Sep 29, 2003 07:27 PM

oooooo I put an extra 'i' in regime. Watch webseter put this one in his spell checker

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 08:10 PM

Listen up class! The idiot thinks he only made one mistake in that post. Let's have a looksee, shall we?...

1) pertaining, not pertaing, lol!
2) themselves, not their self
3) OUR, not ARE! We've been over that one twice already!
4) equally, not equaly
5) naive, not naieve
6) can't, not cant
7) has, not as
8) lying, not lieing, duh-uh
9) regime, not (this is my favorite) reigiem, LOL!
10) Don't, not Dont

For you to use the words lying and stealing in any post in any form like you are beyond those traits is ludicrous, lol.

sobek Sep 29, 2003 08:17 PM

Thanks webster. I see your life is so consumed by these post and this forum, that you have nothing better to do then sit with a spell checker and pick apart post. Give your self a pat on the back.

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 08:26 PM

I don't need a spell checker to correct your posts. No one does, lol. I know preschoolers who make less mistakes than you do. As a matter of fact, I could get a preschooler to correct the grammar in your posts, LMAO! I can understand Stoeckl having difficulties with our language. It should be a struggle for him. The funny thing is, Stoeckl's grammar is better than yours. Aaaahahahahahahahaha!!!!! And you live here! Muuuaaahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!

steve.AC Sep 30, 2003 07:32 AM

There you go again, insults and name calling, thats your weapon hey man. the only thing is that it's a backfiring weapon. and it really makes you look stupid.

steve

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 07:55 PM

..to this drivel spewing idiot!

Are you finished blathering, Mr. Keen Insight, lol? You just know everything about us and what we are thinking! It's a good thing that this forum has been blessed with your "all knowing", "all seeing" omnipotent(look it up moron) presence. Since you are so knowledgable as to U.S. politics, perhaps you can explain why we have a government. Better yet, explain why we need one since according to you, everything is Bush's fault. I mean, you do think he solely makes all the decisions without any authority from the government, right? You even insinuate that everything that happens here is his idea, lol. Also, what is it that you are referring to when you allude to our "fear"? The only thing I fear is that people like you who infect and pollute this planet are are allowed to procreate. Lastly, who are these Americans you "claim" suffocated as a result of something Bush said? You're reaching again. Idiotic stories such as that are not helping your cause. At least Stoeckl's stories are entertaining. Your's are a desperate cry for attention. How sad.

steve.AC Sep 30, 2003 07:23 AM

Its people like you that make this world a sick place, all you do is insult everyone and anyone that has a difference in oppinion than yourself, Ide really like to know what you do for a living.

steve

steve.AC Sep 29, 2003 12:01 PM

Its funny how you guys and girls keep saying that we here in Europe all band together and you give some cute name for it, but just look at yourselves, all your posts one after another, sticking together and feeling the confidence of the next person as to make yourselves seem even bigger than you really are.

So childish again and again, nothing but name calling and foul language, it's as if you have missed out on the high school class "conversation and grown up talk" its the same every single time you respond.

And I'll say again, is the USA NOT full of baeurocrats as well.

steve

sobek Sep 29, 2003 08:02 PM

Americans should count their blessings, above all the supreme blessing of having an economy that is run by businessmen.

Thats a joke right? The fact that it is run by Businessmen is one of our MAIN PROBLEMS!

Way to often elected officials are swayed from makeing the right choices that are better for citizens, in exchange for large cash payoffs, stock in companies, campaign contributions, and so on. America is no longer ran by the people for the people. Its ran by the Business for the consumer.

ScottishCLK Sep 29, 2003 08:19 PM

Since when do you care about the "citizens"? What you really mean is, "make choices that are better for YOU". This country gives you the opportunity to make life what YOU make it! If you decide to be a freeloading crybaby, it's your own fault, not the president's!

steve.AC Sep 29, 2003 11:13 PM

Whats your problem, why did you turn out to be the way YOU are.

What do you do for a living.

steve

tommyboy Sep 30, 2003 01:13 PM

I am not only envious but I applaud the EU countries that care about their citizen's enough to provide health care for all. I am also envious of their liberal vacation allowances and retirement plans. I wish the government and citizen's of the U.S. would open their eye's and take the same approach. In the U.S. all we seemed concerned about is making as much money as possible. We can never seem to get enough. People cannot raise their children properly because they have to work such long hours. I think alot of social issues in America can be directly attributed to how we treat our worker's. Stress and stress related problems are at an all time high in the American workplace. No one here seem's to care. The only question posed by companies here is how much money can we make. The well being of the employee is not a top priority. So IMHO, to attack a country that show's great concern towards it's worker's and their welfare is to show true ignorance. That type of backward thinking is why the U.S. is in such poor shape nowadays. I don't disagree with having a strong military but I for one can't see why we allow our government to spend trillions on defense but so very little on our welfare and the welfare of our nation. American's have become all about "I" and it's time we think more about each other. When will we see what's really important?????

Tom E.

sobek Sep 30, 2003 02:41 PM

very well put!

ScottishCLK Sep 30, 2003 03:02 PM

Backward thinking is thinking that your own personal experiences define the state of things everywhere. Just because there's stress in YOUR workplace doesn't means that's the norm. Are you venting here because your boss yelled at you? One of the benefits of living in this country is that, as I've said before, life is what YOU make it. If your unhappy, it's your own fault. If you don't like where you work, go work somewhere else. The statement that people cannot raise their children properly because of the amount of work hours is absurd. Does that experience apply to you? Perhaps you could tell us where your information is coming from. I know ALOT of couples who work and have a double income household and they raise their kids like champs. You stated also that all "we" are concerned about is making as much money as possible. What's your point? Does that "we" in fact include "you"? Are you angry that others make more than you? It sounds that way. I wonder if you are one of those guys who thinks that people who don't work as hard as others should be payed the same.

steve.AC Sep 30, 2003 03:37 PM

so what you are saying is that, your point is the only point that matters here, and no one else has a say in anything.

I agree with the previous message, but I see that you cannot even immagine anything different than your own life. you seem to think that your situation is the only situation and why should anyone else have it any different.

What do you do for a living, I am really interested and will not judge you whatever you tell me.

steve

sobek Sep 30, 2003 04:11 PM

I'd also like to know what class would you put your self in? The number of minorities in your area? And yearly house hold income? If you dont mind..

ScottishCLK Sep 30, 2003 05:18 PM

You are in NO position to ask me any questions. Until you start answering a few, you'll get no answers. Actually, due to your recent posts where you have exhibited the deceptive behaviour you are well known for, I see no reason to believe anything you post anyway. Therefore I seek no answers from you. I will entertain this topic just for kicks. I live in an area where most people are hard working honest folk, unlike you. I am self employed and do light construction (home improvements) which includes roofing, siding, carpentry, sheetrock, decks, finish basements, painting etc. Prior to being self employed I built new homes with a framing contractor. Before that I was a roofing foreman for ten years, a handyman before that, and a construction site laborer (clean-up guy) before that. Within all these jobs I did alot of side jobs to learn different trades and make extra money(oh-oh, I guess that makes me a money-gruuber, lol). Just prior to that and fresh out of high school I worked at a brand new developement for Toll Brothers Builders as a landscaper/groundskeeper. In other words Fred, I've worked hard to get where I am and still work hard and I enjoy it. I wouldn't trade my job for anything! Everyone I know works hard for what they have and they don't whine and complain about it. That's the way it's supposed to be...PERIOD! You have to work for the things you want in life. Happiness is EARNED! Get it? Now how about signing a post for a change?

Chris Kennard

ScottishCLK Sep 30, 2003 05:25 PM

I'm not sure why you're playing the race card here by asking about minorities, but okay, I'll answer. I don't know the ratio of minorities here. There are way too many different ethnicities here to sift through and give an accurate count of each. We have it all! Your point?

ScottishCLK Sep 30, 2003 05:32 PM

I would appreciate if you would be so kind as to answer your own questions. Perhaps you could share what you do for a living. Do you consider yourself a minority? Is that why you brought it up? And please sign your posts.

ScottishCLK Oct 01, 2003 07:57 PM

Cat got your tongue Fred?

DevinP Oct 01, 2003 09:43 PM

Devin P.

PS The folks in Little Rock say hello!

DevinP Sep 30, 2003 09:48 PM

Devin P.

gailT Sep 30, 2003 09:55 PM

DevinP Sep 30, 2003 09:43 PM

Great post! It's absurd that we have to point out that the desire to make as much money as possible is omething good, not evil.

Devin P.

DevinP Sep 30, 2003 09:36 PM

"American's have become all about "I" and it's time we think more about each other. When will we see what's really important????? "

Tommy Boy, based on your socialistic point of view, I think that you are better suited to reside in Europe. This was the first country founded on the principle of "I", not "We", and "We" happen to have over 200 years of success. We are a Capitalistic society, and that means that no one is going to stop YOU from paying your neighbor's health insurance if he has none and you have compassion for him. I certainly do not have to be responsible for paying YOURS! This country is successful, and great, because THE CHOICE IS MINE!

Usually, those who criticize Americans for wanting to "make as much money as possible" are those individuals looking to get into their neighbors pocket, and in this country nobody likes a freeloader.

You agree with having a strong military, but you criticize the MEANS of having a strong military. is it even necessary to point out this glaring contradiction?

It sounds like YOU are unhappy with your job, if you have one, and if you do I would suggest finding another. You see the choice is all yours.

In American we are responsible for our own actions, and this is why we are more successful than our envious "friends" in Europe. The though of making as much money as possible has spawned countless Americans to achieve so much more than they otherwise would if they lived in a country where the money generated from their extra efforts would be taken away by some creepy politician (who would certainly pocket some for himself) and "redistribute" the rest to someone like you. That isn't fair now, is it? It sounds to me like you are similar to some of the others here who are simply looking for something for nothing.

Take note that the system in Europe is doomed. Gail's post was a masterpiece. So let's not even think about using them as some kind of example for this country.

Devin P.

tommyboy Oct 01, 2003 02:27 AM

First and foremost(sorry I couldn't resist) I am an aircraft mechanic. I make a earn a very nice wage. I am very happy with my job. I am not stressed out. Does that just about answer your questions? I think it also end's the "want's something for nothing" and "freeloader" debate. I am also charitable with my money to help other's and although I can't help everyone at least I'm trying. My observation's of the American workforce is made everyday in a large facility with people of different race and sex. People ranging from custodian to top level executive's.

I would love to carry on this debate. When you can argue a point intelligently without petty name calling and accusation's of unemployment let me know. Just because I disagree with you on certain point's don't become so defensive that your lower yourself to these antic's. You seem like a person who has the ability to conduct yourself at a much higher level.

Maybe I do belong in Europe!?

Your favorite socialist,

Tom E.

ScottishCLK Oct 01, 2003 05:48 AM

The last paragraph in your post has me a bit baffled! I didn't see any petty name calling or "antics". What I see here is YOU being defensive toward a reply with some good points. But I digress. So judging from your statement, and I quote, "My observations of the American workforce is made everyday in a large facility with people of different race and sex", your opinion is based on personal experience. My point exactly. Your observation is made where YOU work. Thank you for clearing that up. Lastly, how do you get any work done with all the "observing" you do with regard to such a large workforce?

ScottishCLK Oct 01, 2003 06:06 AM

Just for the record, it appears to me as if you didn't really want an intellegent debate. Judging from your last post, it appears as though you simply wanted to get a reply that would allow you to make the accusatory response you made. I'd go as far as to say that you probably had that response composed before you even got a reply, lol. Your response was melodramatic at best.

gailT Oct 01, 2003 06:32 AM

just agreeing with someone who thinks like I do. No different than when all the Socialists agree with each other.

ScottishCLK Oct 01, 2003 04:03 PM

Are you sure you want to be associated with rifraf like me, lol?

DevinP Oct 01, 2003 10:31 AM

So, you have a good job, you earn a "very nice wage, you are very happy with your job, and you are "not stressed out". Good for you! I can say the same for myself, but, unlike you, I'm not not making disparaging comments about my country and my fellow Americans.

You've painted quite a dismal picture of America, you've accused others of not being able to "raise their children properly", you've put your fellow Americans, and American companies down for being greedy, and apparently you are the only one in this country with your eye's open. What was is you said to me about making accusations?

If your boss doesn't pay for your health insurance, and if your vacation policy, and retirement plan are lacking, then tell it to your boss, not your President. Stop whining about how you envy the EU countries. Better yet, why don't you find another job or move to one of those EU countries? The choice is yours. Neither your evil government, the evil company that you work for, or your evil fellow Americans (who can't raise kids properly) are forcing you to put up with such dismal conditions.In America you get what you give. Nobody has to apologize to you if this system doesn't work for you.

Devin P.

PS I gladly pay for my own health insurance. I don't expect my boss to pay for it anymore than I wouldn't expect him to pay for my new car.

ScottishCLK Oct 01, 2003 04:14 PM

Exactly what do you do as an aircraft mechanic? Fix frisbees? LOL! Sorry dude, I couldn't pass that up. No offense.

gailT Oct 01, 2003 06:07 AM

Well....let me see....more than 10,000 elderly people in France this past summer died because of the heat and no one gave a damn, not even their own children that were off on vacations. Nice way to show how much they all care about each other isn't it. The health system in Europe is atrocious.....in England, my relatives pay for private health insurance because if you have to see a doctor for something even as serious as prostate cancer, you have to wait months for an appointment. The people over there are not happy with their system and most would prefer to have the hospital care and doctors that we have here.

I don't know where you live, but most people I know help out the poor and elderly as best they can. We don't need the government taking the money we work for and deciding who should get what and how much. The system that you want is in Europe and it is failing....miserably. If I spend 20 hours every week weeding and cultivating my garden, why should I let the government come along and take all my vegetables that I have grown and redistribute them amongst everyone and then give me back what they think I need for the year. That is the kind of system you seem to believe in and that is not how America became such a popular and strong country. Every day thousands of Europeans come to this country to live.....there isn't thousands of Americans going there to live....and if you wanted to go there you can't take a job away from a citizen of what ever country you choose to live in.

I don't care if you like America or not, but to say that Europe has better people and a better way of life is simply ridiculous.

DevinP Oct 01, 2003 10:50 AM

Bingo! Your firsthand knowledge "blows these guys out of the water".

Tommy Boy apparently has no interest in living in one of those EU countries, he just wants to vent his dissatisfaction over his apparent lack of vacation time, retirement funding, and health insurance. He seems to take his "very nice wage", his stress-free job, and the fact that he's "very happy" with his job, ALL FOR GRANTED. That's apparently not enough for Tommy Boy. He wants more! Sounds like Tommy Boy has some "GREED" issues of his own. It's funny how his boss, and President Bush are to blame for what Tommy Boy apparently doesn't have, yet they fail to get any credit for the positive aspects of the job, you know, the things that Tommy Boy so proudly honks his own horn about.

Devin P.

ScottishCLK Oct 01, 2003 04:08 PM

Nicely put!

DevinP Oct 01, 2003 11:24 AM

"That type of backward thinking is why the U.S. is in such poor shape nowadays."

Would you please elaborate on this insulting statement? Remember that YOU are the guy who proudly bragged about how great your job is. Something must be working right in the US? It is well known that the social systems in these EU countries are in a precarious condition. There is certainly nothing to worthy of looking up to. We'll see how successful they really are. You have just ACCUSED those of us here who judge these EU countries accordingly, as "backward" thinkers, and apparently we are the reason why the US is "in such poor shape nowadays". I would say "speak for yourself" but the truth is, America is fine. You just need to open YOUR eyes.

Devin P.

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