Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I probably should ask this on the Alterna forum, but I'll try here first. How big should a female be before we should consider breeding her? I know they have a tendency to become egg bound, so what is a relatively safe size?

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>I probably should ask this on the Alterna forum, but I'll try here first. How big should a female be before we should consider breeding her? I know they have a tendency to become egg bound, so what is a relatively safe size?
>>

Last time I successfully bred a pair the female was about 28 inches and well over 200 grams.......

I bet that one in your picture will breed next year no problem........Maybe even could've gone this year if you took that picture recently.....There used to be a made up rule of 30 inches and 300 grams with all types of Mexicana (yes alterna are mexicana in my book...lol), but we all know they will breed successfully prior to that...........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I want to breed this girl, but I sure don't want het to have any problems. I was talking with Tad Fitzgerald and he said, he would never breed a female less than three years old, or in her third year. This one is an 09.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>I want to breed this girl, but I sure don't want het to have any problems. I was talking with Tad Fitzgerald and he said, he would never breed a female less than three years old, or in her third year. This one is an 09.

Yep...i forgot.....3 years old, 3 feet long and 300 grams....That was the made up rule.......
Some folks still live by it........I bet they don't in the wild.......

She will be there next year......and she will be right at 3......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>I want to breed this girl, but I sure don't want het to have any problems. I was talking with Tad Fitzgerald and he said, he would never breed a female less than three years old, or in her third year. This one is an 09.

BTW....Tad Fitzgerald communally houses his snakes together.....Read it on his site.......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

http://www.captivebred.com/Co-Habitating lampropeltis.htm
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I said I have my Tharei in groups, so what?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>I said I have my Tharei in groups, so what?

K......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

You know what's funny, I bet I get a total opposite reaction and advice if I ask this on the Alterna forum?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>You know what's funny, I bet I get a total opposite reaction and advice if I ask this on the Alterna forum?

Yep....you will.....alot of the old school alterna keepers aren't trying anything new.....they just do what has worked for them over and over again.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Isn't that the voice of experience? Who better to seek advice from, but guys who are experienced in a specific area? Not that there isn't plenty of experience here on this board, but as I was told, Alterna are prone to egg binding. That came from some one who has bred them consistantly for many years. So I have to take all this good info and make a decision. I appreciate all the input, after all that's why I asked.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>Isn't that the voice of experience? Who better to seek advice from, but guys who are experienced in a specific area? Not that there isn't plenty of experience here on this board, but as I was told, Alterna are prone to egg binding. That came from some one who has bred them consistantly for many years. So I have to take all this good info and make a decision. I appreciate all the input, after all that's why I asked.

Wait until next year Jorge. If it seems like the logical thing to do.....More size and weight always helps.....The size and weight helps if conditions are not perfect.....They can "afford" to use up more reserves when they are larger....Smaller females do not have this luxury.....

All Montane and Mexican kings are prone to egg binding if not provided the correct thermal and humidity gradients.......Remember hydration is the key....not from drinking alone but from absorbtion and from prey items......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

shoot up when the female snake is about to go off feed, prior to egg laying. A peach fuzzy turns into a weanling in a matter of seconds...With water of course!!!
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Jimmy Tintle

Everytime I thought about this post last night, I laughed like a little kid!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I really do not understand why this is even a question, a female can only lay eggs if she forms ovum, then eggs. That event tells you, she is big enough, at whatever lenght and weight she is.

Your task is to support them. Smaller females are not any more prone to egg binding as any other size. UNLESS your support sucks. Its that simple.

Yes the smaller the snake the less mass they have, so they do dehydrate faster. So the problem is not about size, its about dehydration. Fix that and you will not have problems with any sized gravid female.

To make it a little humorous, would a male in nature look at a small cycling female and say, naw babe, not this year, I will wait until next year for you babe. So little girl eat up and gain some weight, then I will have my way with you.

What are you guys thinking? Ok, your not are you, well please think about this

I think there have been cases of very young girls getting pregnant and having to have C-section because they were too small? I do understand what your trying to say, but I always hear of people having egg bond females because they are too young. This goes other colubrids like Corns too. I have to believe the percentage of egg binding in younger smaller females has got to be much greater than in older larger ones. Am I wrong?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>I think there have been cases of very young girls getting pregnant and having to have C-section because they were too small? I do understand what your trying to say, but I always hear of people having egg bond females because they are too young. This goes other colubrids like Corns too. I have to believe the percentage of egg binding in younger smaller females has got to be much greater than in older larger ones. Am I wrong?

Egg binding is the keeper's fault and husbandry set up......It is caused mainly by not enough humidity/moisture.....Dehydration.

If a female can produce ovum, get them fertilized by a male then they can lay good eggs.....If their set up and nesting spot is correct/acceptable....

Infertile eggs bind WAY more than fertile eggs.....So if you cycle a young snake it is best to pair it up with a male so that the eggs will be ferile not slugs that can stick to the oviduct wall.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Well, I believe that if they are not fertilized, the female will re-absorb them.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>Well, I believe that if they are not fertilized, the female will re-absorb them.
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>>King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
>> Jorge Sierra
>>
>>My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

So you NEVER had a female snake lay bad eggs? WTF?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>
>>So you NEVER had a female snake lay bad eggs? WTF?
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OK so then why do some re-absorb and some don't? Could it be that if they never copulate they re-absorb? The only snakes I ever had lay entire clutches of unfertilized eggs were WC Speckled Kings which I didn't even expect to lay eggs.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>>>
>>>>So you NEVER had a female snake lay bad eggs? WTF?
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>> OK so then why do some re-absorb and some don't? Could it be that if they never copulate they re-absorb? The only snakes I ever had lay entire clutches of unfertilized eggs were WC Speckled Kings which I didn't even expect to lay eggs.

Like I stated in the second reply....They CAN re absorb but that doesn't mean they ALWAYS do......

You need to try some snakes that are a little more difficult than getula and corns that can be downwind of a mate and lay good eggs later....J/K...LOL......
Try some Montane kings...then you'll get some infertile eggs......until you figure them out.....I believe I am still in that process of figuring them all out.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hey John I have bred Alterna before and I guess Thayeri are pretty simple to breed also. I had Pyros but never bred them, What's with the condensation?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>Hey John I have bred Alterna before and I guess Thayeri are pretty simple to breed also. I had Pyros but never bred them, What's with the condensation?

I am just saying that getula and corns normally lay good eggs....that is why there are so many folks working with them...they are prolific and hardy......

Other species and subspecies aren't as "simple"....

No moisture or condensation......LOL
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

HI Jorge,

To reabsorb eggs is much harder on a female than sliding out a fertile clutch. Many captive females fail (die) after a reabsorption event. Yeah they can do it, but it has been well documented that to do so is horrendously stressful on them. The process of follicular growth does not lend itself well to reversal. To reach the point of mature follicles and not have them fertilized can mean failure for the animal. For us to assume otherwise because a female is too young in our eyes, implies a total lack of understanding.

I'm not saying or implying that this is your issue Jorge, I just happened to jump in on your post.

I think that a lot of folks believe that they need to "decide" for their animals, when a little better observation will tell them everything that they nee to know.

This I did not know! That is very interesting info, Will.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>Well, I believe that if they are not fertilized, the female will re-absorb them.

Unfertilized eggs CAN get re absorbed.....that doesn't mean they ALWAYS do.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Reabsorbtion of ova is not common in wild snakes either. Probably only happens when a female is injured before ovulation and aborts the cycle. Once ovulation occurs there is no resorbtion; you get duds.
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Rick Staub

for your input as well!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Your missing the point, they reproduce when nature tells them, there is no, to big or to small or actual set weight. There are different reproductive approaches depending on the year and its natural support.

What happens when you get into captivity is, like I mentioned, keepers have marginal nesting and or marginal dehydration problems that effect the smaller individuals more then larger massed individuals.

Just fix the problem of nesting and hydration or better yet dehydration. Then let them be the snakes they were designed to be.

What your doing is making them play your game because your to boneheaded or stubborn to change your conditions to fit them. And yes we are all boneheaded and stubborn, so I am not picking on you.

If we are to go by your example, there are a million bad things that have killed kingnsnakes, so don't keep them in boxes and you won't have a problem. Sir, fix the problem, not change the snake.

You do know there is no way to stop a female from cycling once they start, anything other then normal reproduction is actually harder on the female.

They are designed to lay eggs, when under normal conditions, its not hard on them or stressful on them. Poor conditions is what causes hardship and stress, whether its in nature or captivity.

FR thanks for your input. Maybe i'm too bone headed to wrap my head around this one. I thought egg binding was due mostly to lack of muscle tone due to not enouh execise? I also read calcium suppliments can help curb this?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Its all about hydration. Poor muscle tone is a clear symptom of dehydration, and not a cause in and of itself of egg binding.

Well hydrated females with appropriate nesting options usually don't become eggbound, regardless of size and age. If the above conditions are met, the keeper will not have a problem. If they are not met, the first keepers to have problems will be those with females of small body mass, as they will reach a critical stage more quickly and present issues before larger females with greater mass.

If you've seen snakes in the wild, you've noticed that most, even the tiniest wild females found are gravid. Humans are not there to pass judgment on their abilities and declare, "well...maybe they'll look right next year". It happens when it happens, and we have no notion as to what chronological age is best for them. To assume so is to assume beyond our abilities, and is a sign of arrogance in my eyes. If a female appears to be cycling, for god's sake put a male in with her, regardless of age. To do otherwise is to anthropomorphize the animals and belittle them and their abilities. We're only guessing. Maybe its a good guess, but they know for sure, always.

Will

Thanks for your comments Will, but a wild female is having to hunt for food and move in and out of temperature gradients, and away from preditors. Isn't it fair to say that our snakes become lethargic in cages? Especially when we even kill the mouse for them in most cases? I have experienced egg binding before, and it's always been from younger females, usually with their first breedings. I guess I am a bit anxious with this one because she is one of my favorites, and I would hate to have something like that happen with her. Not sure how I can hydrate them more than I already do? This is one of those situations where I get conflicting advice from experienced breeders whose opinion I respect yet they both say something different, lol. I don't feel any signs of Ovulation yet, so I will wait and see at least till then.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Hi Jorge,

That's probably the best thing any of us can do to know for sure, palpate for follicles and keep a close eye. Look for the distinct signs that tell yes or no for sure. However, I certainly understand the stress involved with putting a young first-timer in with a male, who the heck knows what's gonna happen. More good conversation. Thanks.

Will

Thanks for sharing your wisdom Frank!
I appreciate you sharing your knowledge again,
Thanks, Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html