Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I don't know if I've asked this befor or not. I was wondering how everyone came up with their pricing for animals. I understand that prices differ from online and show prices and I also understand they can vary greatly from breeder to breeder. I also understand that opinions on how to price differ from breeder to breeder, and that the market price change every year. The biggest part that complicates my way of thinking is that prices are dictated based off of the prices set. And with clutches hatching all over the place it seems that the market would be established here shortly. So my question is how does everyone figure out their prices?

I read a thread on a different forum... And old thread that the original author was going to start a price tracking website. Almost like a blue book on ball python prices. I thought that this was the greatest idea on the planet. When I went to check the sight out it did not exist. I asked questions on other forums and possibly this one and came up with know exceptable answer. Everyone said that prices vary too much and that the market changes too often. I have done many searches, but have never found anything like a ball python blue book.

I would absolutely love to see this site available. And I disagree with the idea that the market changes too often. I actually believe that if there was such a site available and that enough buzz was created for it and people used it that it would actually help stabilize the market. It works with Kelly Blue Book for vehicles, Becketts works for trading cards. Why wouldn't it work for ball pythons.

This whole search started whenever I first started hearing complaints from large breeders. Complaints saying the hobbyists were destroying the market for them because they were underpricing animals simply because they didn't have the investment that the larger breeders have. I feel this is simply untrue. I think the biggest problem for pricing when it comes to a hobbiest is time. I'll continue -->

Most hobbyists work 40 or more hour a week jobs and still have the standards distractions of everyday life. Finding time to search for breeders that are selling the same morons as you getting prices aging them out and listing is something that would be slightly more time consuming than a hobbiest would have time for. It would just be simpler to list a snake for top dollar and slowly lower the price as time goes on.

Man I'd live to see a blue book site, and as far as I'm concerned. It's the responsibility of the bigger breeders who feel it's the hobbyists destroying their market to create it. I don't see this happening any time soon. Anyway I was just wondering how everyone came up with their prices?

If you've been interested enough to continue reading. I'm posting from my iPhone. I was trying to say find breeders selling morphs like you and it autospelled it morons. I didn't catch it. Sorry.

I think the biggest problem with prices from the hobbiest end is that in order to sell their snakes they often have to undercut (this is if they are new and not well known).

Most people are less likely to buy from an unknown breeder unless that snake costs quite a bit less than the big breeder snake. This price gouge doesn't necessarily reflect the quality of the snake...it's often just an attempt to get a "foot in the door" of the market.
Once the person has sold some snakes, and gained a decent rep, they can start selling at higher prices, but often the damage is already done because other hobbiests are doing the same thing to gain their rep, but are not only undercutting the big breeders, but also the first guy...

So it becomes a domino affect of price cuts.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Yah prices do differ from shows to online. I got an 09 female yellowbelly for $90 and you cant find one online now under $200 or $300 probably.

That's pure business.

Check your cost, check your market and see what kind of margin you can have. That's something that most breeders don't do and should.

Instead, they breed and hope to sell for the going value that doesn't reflect necessarly their cost.
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love this world, don't hate it.

Many things come to mind....the new breeder/producer...does this person know how to ship? Is this person getting hatchlings well established as good feeders on a weekly basis so when it comes to you, it will feed without hesitation? Does this person feed on a regular schedule so this hatchling gains good weight and comes to you with good body weight? These are all things that I make certain will happen for the hatchlings I produce. I am certified FedEx reptile shipper, I know how to pack a snake, how to use heat packs, etc. So much to learn and it takes years to learn it. Are you satisfied with someone who does not know all of this????? Think about it.

You don't need to be certified to safely and effectively ship your snakes anymore due to Ship your Reptiles, so that isn't really a point of merit.

The feeding hatchlings etc is, but not the shipping.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

>>You don't need to be certified to safely and effectively ship your snakes anymore due to Ship your Reptiles, so that isn't really a point of merit.
>>

You do need to know how to pack a animal in order to ship safely.

Too many times people do not pack the animal for shipment properly and well....you know what happens then....

Shipping requires good packing. No offense intended here, but your shipper doesn't pack for you.... do they?

Back to the subject at hand, the classifieds are a good guide for pricing as Mike stated.

The classifieds will change according to the market and in my opinion if you are monitoring the pricing in the classifieds you will see a change when it happens.

Also IMO, the market is strong as ever!
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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

I agree you need to know how to pack, but that also isn't hard. SYR has a video of how to pack reptiles, and youtube has several...including Ralph Davis showing how he ships.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Well that is a great reason to buy from a reputable breeder yes. But I'm not sure I follow how that pertains to what a breeder should charge. As I said great statement or even argument in a comparison of established breeder compared to new breeder or even a reason to pay more for an animal from an established breeder. But what I was getting at more or less was the fluctuation and rapidly falling market. I think a guide would help.

I agree the only thing is if done right cost is very limited to a small breeder. Let's say you breed your own food. Your only real expense is rat food, small jump in electric annually, bedding is free maybe, water is minimal, bedding is free, decided by animals. The only thing left is shipping which is usually charged to the customer. Cost is almost n/a for a small time breeder. That pretty much leaves market left. A small time breeder could really drop the bottom out of the market. What I was kinda getting at is what's the easiest way to establish a market value. Obviously a fair amount of research could be done to obtain the market values for each animal, but I think this business really needs a standard in place. Of course someone could deviate if they wanted to, but smaller breeders selling for super low prices are only destroying the market and hurting themselves. Being a smaller breeder I guess what I'm trying to say is. I don't think anyone wants to sell a $500 animal for $300 regardless of how long they have to keep it. I think it's more of an issue of not having a convenient place available to research market prices. For example I may see two breeders selling super pastels for $500. If I place mine for sale at $500, but they don't sell in a year I lower my price because I only found two breeders selling supers for $500 I feel that my price is higher than actual market. Where as if I have a guide to go by then I know that I have the right price and that demand might be low at that time. Then I know I should hold out. I benefit cause I don't loose an animal at a low price and the market benefits because everyone else doesn't have to lower to keep up with my prices (as well as everyone else who lowered). To me it seems like it's backwards. I always here that a guide can't be created because the markets always changing. I feel if a guide is in place prices would stabilize. Just my opinion, but if anyone out there is capable and listening I think it would help.

Price fixing is what it sounds like you are after. That is illegal. It wouldn't work, but if this were a commodity it would be illegal.
Why do you say rapidly falling market, I don't see it that way, and I do this for a living. It is the same market, maybe better. No animal price will remain the same. Males need to be replaced with better males, albino spiders instead of just albinos. You can't make money if animals sit in your tubs and don't produce. Don't buy expensive animals if you aren't ready to do something with them, so they can pay their own way.
My first pied cost 9K in 2001, now they are $900. Is that a rapidly falling market, I guess it depends on who you are and what angle you are looking at it from. I would have had to be stupid to think that once I was producing lots of pieds they would still sell for 9K. My pied project paid for itself long ago.
The list you want already exists, it is called the classifieds. Yes they vary from day to day and from ad to ad, but your list would have to vary also to keep up. There are also wholesale buyers on the classifieds to give you an idea of those prices.
As far as small breeders having no expense except for the few supplies you mentioned, how do you think they got their breeders.
Producing snakes is one thing, marketing them is another. Instead of lowering retail prices when something hasn't sold and you need to move it, contact wholesalers. If you had a lawn business would you try to get the competition to all charge $75 for the average lawn.

Wow. No. Sorry if that came off the wrong way, but apparently I'm coming off completely off topic. My interest is in having a guide not fixing prices and you said that if the snakes were a commodity? They are you buy and sell them, that's a commodity. And if it's illegal then how's come I haven't seen the class action lawsuit against Kelly Blue Book, INC. Maybe I'm up against a loosing battle here and that's fine. But don't twist what I was saying when I was asking someone to create a guide and turn it around and say that I'm lobbying the federal government to implent laws against price gouging in the snake breeding industry. That ridiculous to even deduct that from what I said.

When I said commodity, I guess I meant a necessary commodity. Yes, you want a list, the reason you want the list though is to control the prices. To me that is an attempt at price fixing. When reptile dealers mailed price lists before the Internet everyone had burms for $85, they were price fixing.

My main point was that the market isn't rapidly falling, every breeder I know is happy. Business is great. Not every snake is going to sell for retail price through a classified ad. If you cant sell retail, wholesale. Plan ahead.

Right I guess I was misunderstood. That's not at all what I was trying to do. I was just simply using it as an argument for my case. Ive asked this question before and the answer I got was that the market fluctuated too much to do this. My argument was that if that was an issue then the price guide would stabilize the market. In this case stabilizing the market is the effect not the cause. I could care less about stabilizing the market. I just would like to see an extensive price guide available for pricing animals. That's all

What exactly do you think Kelly Blue Book is? The prices are published based on what the market is doing, not the other way around. KBB is a guide, not a set price.

You know what your snake is worth? What someone is willing to pay for it. It really is that simple.
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3.2 Corn (Butter-Sunflower '07/Anery Stripe-Ripple '06/Amber-Jack Straw '06/Snow-Casey Jones '06/Amel Motley-Cosmo '03)
0.1 Baird's Ratsnake (Sugaree '04)
1.0 White Oaks Grey Rat (Tennesse Jed '04)
0.1 IJ Carpet Python (Cassidy '04)
1.0 Western Hognose (Samson '05)
1.1 Shepherd mix (Dylan 9yrs, Porter 4yrs)

It seemed like the reason he wanted a guide was for the purpose of stabilizing or "fixing" the market.

The market isn't broken, it doesn't need to be fixed.

Right and I explained to you that this wasn't the case. I'm just merely looking for a way to make research easier. That's it. There's nothing wrong with working for something, putting in dues or anything like that. I just thought it was an idea I never realized I'd be viewed as a communist price nazi. I just wanted to see if we could make things easier. That's all. If there's nothing to my idea then there's nothing to it, but all this senseless arguing is getting us nowhere. I started the thread and if I could I'd delete it. I don't understand at all why this is such a passionate topic.

Now you have it. Just take out a little excitement and add a little thought and we are on the same page. That's what I'm asking for and subsequently explaining to everyone else. It would be a nice addition to have a GUIDE and for argument sake. Let's just say it could be based off of what a lot have people have paid for a lot of different snakes or the same species and morph. WOW. Please quit arguing. Your actually saying what I'm saying. I'm only adding that I'd like to see a guide. If you don't like the word guide use price list. If you don't like the word price list us avg sum from the compilation of prices paid for snakes in previous years. Man we can even call it "the book of prices that people will pay you for a snake if that's what they were willing to pay for it pricelist guide". It doesn't matter what you call it. It's just something where information is gathered and published in a convenient place. It works in every other industry. Why do you sound so passionately against my idea when you're saying the same thing?

What I was reacting to was your comment about KBB getting sued for price fixing. I am not commenting on your whole proposal.

I think KBB markets itself well, but people rely on it too heavily. Try going into a dealership and telling them what they should sell their car for based on KBB. They don't do that. They monitor what the competition is selling for THAT DAY and price their car accordingly. That is the same way the snake market works.

Again, it is pretty simple. The price something sells for is when the preceived value is higher than the asking price. Keep your eye on the classifieds and you will see what is selling at what price. If an ad is there too long, the price is too high.
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3.2 Corn (Butter-Sunflower '07/Anery Stripe-Ripple '06/Amber-Jack Straw '06/Snow-Casey Jones '06/Amel Motley-Cosmo '03)
0.1 Baird's Ratsnake (Sugaree '04)
1.0 White Oaks Grey Rat (Tennesse Jed '04)
0.1 IJ Carpet Python (Cassidy '04)
1.0 Western Hognose (Samson '05)
1.1 Shepherd mix (Dylan 9yrs, Porter 4yrs)

you sell it now or in a year?
if you keep it a year , people think they can double, triple and even get more..truth is...why would I buy a year old for xxx if I can get a baby for xx and have it breed faster because someone didn't hold it in a little box for a year, and feed it a "sustainable diet"....I could buy a baby and feed it well, not even pushed, and have it grow bigger than the year old in that ones's second year?...been there ,done that,,,,got adult from Africa and laid the same month as babies I got the same time....so wild adults are out,, no matter the price...

.you want to hold it all?....
you live in a state with 10000 other guys breeding locally near you?
you live near a cheap mouse/rat supply?
you say breed your own mice, costs nothing?...I AM smalltime...it cost me $8000 to feed my mice last year (bedding also).....free? cheap?...no way...
what about time?...2 hours a day, every day, for 20 years...no matter what...you HAVE to feed the mice...period...I don't care what you WANT to do...you HAVE to feed the mice...(and water)...

....prices....1200$ snake for $700...bad?...no....cash in hand...let the other guys sell the same snake for more...
wholesale...retail...you decide....

.......you can get it cheaper than you think...you have to know where to look....there is no bottom to the prices....believe it...

cheaper from smalltime is a worse ball?...no...a better ball...bigtime breeders take less time with each snake than smalltime...so smalltime can be much better...think....you have 100 babies and feed them ,,,you have 3000 babies and feed them...which is better? (for the snakes)

....there is no price that's set for anything...cars, cards, shoes, trees, wood, rat chow, and balls...it's all where you live, who you know and who wants it....

...ramblings.......>>>from a smalltime cheap guy with well fed babies...sold wholesale....LOL.....ask Ian and Fred, and Brandon........
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........JY

Feeding food (either it's frozen rats or food to feed the rats or both), electricity, tubs, racks etc... etc...

But what is the main cost for snake breeders, the snakes themself. You need to establish your cost related to your breeders. What % of her paid value you gonna split to each reproduction (doesn't have to all be the same). You also need to consider future years.

The thing now, is how many years do you put that male or female on for cost. Can be 2-3, 5 up to 10 years if you want.
I prefer to use a lower, like 5 years (grow up 2-3 reproduction in my calculation) if I can recoup my females in 5 years, I am happy and she is paid, after it's overdue.

Same for male, I plan on breeding him to many more females and younger. So I will base on a 2-3 years maximum cause anyway you will have to probably replace him.

It isn't an easy to do you, trust me. And I won't tell you exactly how I tell you cause you just don't tell all your secrets and effort for free isn't it ? Even the ones who do it, do it for $ cause they plan on getting more people around them, it's called marketing

Good luck !
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love this world, don't hate it.

New to BP's but I have to ask, "market price" isn't any animal or item only worth what someone else is willing to pay for it? Anyone can say this BP is worth 10k but if no one is willing to pay 10 k for it is it really worth 10 K?

Yes that's true, but market price is usually dictated based off of that. Also like the other guy said early there's difference off of the market price. Some would be willing to pay slightly more for an animal from BHB, Ralph Davis, or Nerd than they would buying from John Down the Street Reptiles. What I'm suggesting is that someone come up with a market guide for ball pythons wih a target number or range and then breeders will know how to properly price there animals. I guess I used other points to prove my opinion and it offended some people, but to get to the bottom of it. I was just looking for a simpler way to price animals.

Simple-If I have a spider for sale, I will go to Kingsnake and find 10 listings for spiders that are of the same sex and same weight as what I am selling. Add the sum of ALL 10 listings and divide by 10. That is what I sell my spider for.