Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Found this on a google search....

What causes egg-binding?

Egg-binding can be due to:

An anatomical defect in the female causing an obstructive dystocia, which makes it physically impossible for the egg to pass

An overly large or malformed egg, or one that is not positioned correctly, is broken, or joined to other eggs (fractured)

Poor condition of the mother (e.g., inactivity can lead to poor muscle tone and the inability to produce strong, repeated contractions). A female may become exhausted before she completes laying of all the eggs.

Lack of or improper nesting site. A private, quiet area is needed, with the correct depth and selection of substrate for the species. (Lizards, especially, may make repeated attempts at digging a nest, but then never lay down to lay the eggs if the right nesting material is not present.)

Improper temperature or incorrect temperature cycling, improper humidity, and/or incorrect lighting or photoperiod

Malnutrition, especially if resulting in hypocalcemia (low blood levels of calcium). Obesity may also be a cause of egg binding.

Dehydration

Stress, such as overcrowding or too small of an enclosure.

Hormonal or disease conditions such as infections of the reproductive organs, dehydration, or kidney disease (kidneys may become enlarged and partially block the pelvic area.)

Breeding animals that are too young or too old, ill, or not in good condition. Excessive breeding of the same animal may also result in dystocia.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Oh, Good Grief! Now I have to worry about all these things while I wait for my snakes to lay their clutches!

None the less, thanks for posting this.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Sorry Bob! I have had this happen 3 times since I've been breeding and it scare the crap out of me everytime my females lay. Especially when it's one of my best/favorite snakes, you know?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

All I can ay that list was written by someone who doesn't know [bleep] about snakes.
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www.Bluerosy.com

All I can ay that list was written by someone who doesn't know [bleep] about snakes.
Well, then please tell me the proper causes of egg binding so I may worry about the right things.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Nesting and hydration (humidity)

not having a proper nesting site will cause obstructive dystocia or prolapsed ovum.

Dehydration causes what he desribes as poor muscle tone.

I could go on but most of what he says is just to ridiculous to try and defend.

basically all the thing we have been talking about in the past few days.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I asked FR specifically about that some time ago and he said his experience was that he felt it was most times a hydration issue and a good nesting box well in advance of laying.

I'm prone to listen to him on it.

I'm good at worrying too.

I see that many people here see things similar to FR, but my gut tells me different. I believe dehydration and lack of proper nest site can definately be one of the causes, don't get me wrong. But in the 3 cases I experienced, all 3 were first time breeders, which were fed hard to reach maximum size for breeding in the shortest time. They had the same available water and moist nest box as all my other snakes. The most noticable difference was they were a bit on the small side. Eggs either did not all come out, or in one case none came out! I tend to agree with Bill love and others who say it is also small females and atrophy from captive conditions, causing poor muscle tone. That list I posted seems very reasonable, and goes along with what I have always been told. Maybe I am bone headed, lol. But I'm having a hard time with the hydration answer? Won't be posting much more today, getting ready for Passover1 I'll read the rest of the posts tomorrow night, take care.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

You are correct, and your last post definetely says it all.

While some may have experienced what they would call success with some smaller females that were pushed hard to breed as early as possible, the biggest success you can experience can be when you push aside all selfishness, and think first and foremost, the health and well being of the animal. That means waiting until they are a HEALTHY size and age to breed. Couple that with the captive conditions we are limited with and BAM!! ....You got egg bound females, or females that do not do good.

The internet is a playground, so to speak, where anyone can say anything as fact. At this time, the level of bad and selfish advice given on these and other forums is at an all time high. It is all about getting out the eggs, the quickest way possible, in the shortest amount of time, to satisfy egos with insecure individuals. The animal is the victim in all of this, while several use what they view as " herp-sounding " advice and knowledge with their agenda.

I have never heard of even so many cases of egg binding in my life up until the last ten years or so, where pushing females became more commonplace. A reptile vet I know, who has a degree in reptile medicine and biology, always would complain to me the same stuff: People breeding too early and bringing in eggbound females, and people making captive snakes fat by pushing and powerfeeding. He had quite a healthy collection of snakes in his vet office, and he would tire of all of the fat and unhealthy snakes he would see being brought in.

One breeder I know in Florida knew of one individual power feeding and pushing his corns, and by the 7th or 8th year, they were done and could not breed any more. Their poor bodies were simply not able to take any more. The individual could not figure out why?? HAHA! My breeder friend though gave him sound advice by that time.

Another breeder who I know has snakes breed into their twenties, due to not pushing his breeders.

Is it about quality and quantity, or is it about satisfying the ego?? " OOOOOO..I got this new morph out so quick! Woo hoo!! I am a breeder on the cutting edge!! " LOL!!!

So Jorge, you explained it best in your post.

Take care of the snakes, and they will take care of you.

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Genesis 1:1

I disagree with that breeding snakes young is harmful because I've only had 2 snakes become egg bound and they were older snakes (mex-mex & cal king).

Now I will admit that some young females refused to breed. LOL

And I never intentionally double clutch, although some snakes will automatically double clutch without the introduction of a male.

The only other thing in your statement that I agree with is about obese snakes. I feed once a week and that is it. I too see obese snakes in captivity. Snakes can and do get obese in captivity. Any animal taken from the wild (or captive bred) can get obese. It happens in a lot of animal species (dogs, cats, racoons, skunks, lizards, snakes).

And your "facts" are no more valid than other peoples "facts" and that IS A FACT! LOL

Kerby...
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Good post Kerby, and yep, snakes can get fat!!

The key to me is providing them with a good and healthy weight, not overfeeding, but feeding good when the time is right and needed, and giving the females plenty of cage space, more so than the males.
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Genesis 1:1

And I am guilty....I am a sweater box kind of guy. Maybe when (and I am trying) to reduce my collection, then I will house them better.

Kerby...
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Hey, a CB70 for a 3' snake is *not* a small cage Now if you got like a 7' jumbo eastern king in one then yeah...
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

None of my cal kings are that long, but I do have a pyro around 60"

Kerby...
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holy crow, what do you feed that thing? I always thought pyros were tiny!
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

I only feed him once a week like all my other snakes and brumate him for 4-5 months like all my other snakes.

I got him from Lloyd Lemke in 1997 as a baby.

Kerby...
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Yeah, I would love to see a photo of this 60 inch beast with something for perspective, like a person holding it stretched out alongside a tape measure. It is almost twice as big as my biggest pyro, who although not full grown is almost there at 34 inches or so.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I posted pics on here 2-3 years ago when he was 56" long.

Kerby...
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I can't find the post. I would really love to see this magnificent creature. Maybe one of mine will get that big someday! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Sure females can get fat if you don't keep them in groups and they don't get gravid 3x per year.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Well, I've only had 2 snakes that ever became egg bound. An older Mex-Mex and an older Cal King. Both eventually dropped their last egg a couple of months later.

I have bred LOTS of cal kings at 18 months old and NEVER had an issues.

Kerby...
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But in the 3 cases I experienced, all 3 were first time breeders, which were fed hard to reach maximum size for breeding in the shortest time.
I could not power feed my snakes unless I jammed the mice down their throats; they will only eat so much. They have large cages to move around in, too. It's like women: an obese lacking in tone woman will have a harder labor than a fit woman. It takes muscles to expel the eggs or babies. I read somewhere that a power fed female may look big enough but her internal organs may not have developed enough to properly reproduce.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

with you and checking out your snakes and looking at things differently from different perspectives and learning from my mistakes and others to be a better keeper.

BUT I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A MIGHT PAINFUL HERE WHEN FR CHIMES IN! LOL

Ya'll have a good Passover and stay well.

I find taking Advil before a beating helps me weather it better. LOl.

But in the 3 cases I experienced, all 3 were first time breeders, which were fed hard to reach maximum size for breeding in the shortest time

With all teh florida kings I have bred the young females never got egg bound. It is the older females. And then only a handful over six years and hundreds of breedings. Now when i get an eggbound female I leave the unpassed eggs alone (usually only the last one or two eggs)and they expel them in a week or two. I stopped trying to palpitate them and I have had surgery done on 2 females like 20 years ago when I did not know any better.

I have had some older adults expel them a much as 2 months later. One female (a sulfur lavender female) that was eggbound never expelled her eggs. Two years later she got gravid and laid 8 successfult clutches since. Don't ask me what happened to the eggs masses that were rock hard inside of her for two years. They either shrunk or...? Anyway she is on her first clucth as I write.

But to answer the "young female' question. I have alsway had the best clucthes out of them. And I have bred Florida kings as small as 20".
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www.Bluerosy.com

I have never had a problem with breeding young females. The only downer to that is a smaller clutch size, but then every year it increases till they max out in clutch size. And cal kings don't have large clutches like cornsnakes, etc...

Kerby...
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I am not sold either way on age being a factor. I find other points in the first post relevant though such as

An overly large or malformed egg, or one that is not positioned correctly, is broken, or joined to other eggs (fractured)

I have had this happen. Seems to be more common for females laying infertile clutches where ova seem like they are mashed together into a larger mass. It also seems that distocia is more prevalent with infertile clutches. Everyone seems to be placing the blame on the females. Infertility in captive males is quite high, likely orders of magnitude higher than observed in the wild, and well documented. This is probably due to elevated temps in captivity and improper cycling. Many distocia cases might not be an issue with the female at all. I'd also bet that a fair number of young females are bred to a similar aged male, for many even a clutch mate, yet we seem to only look at the female when distocia occurs.

As an aside, I had a female Sinaloan milk that always retained her last egg. She laid beautiful clutches but never wanted to give up that last egg. It became routine for us to aspirate the last egg which she would then pass within a week. This particular female laid early for a Sinaloan and she would double clutch regularly even after the last egg from her first clutch was aspirated and passed. One year she did not pass the aspirated egg so we had to cut her for fear that it would begin to adhere to her oviduct. Surgery went well, she recovered quickly, and she went on to double clutch that year also after the surgery. All eggs were again fertile but she once again retained the last egg, which we aspirated and she passed.
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Rick Staub

Man Jorge, you keep on going.. Good for you, we all benefit.

Make sure cage size is not too small, make sure nestbox is large and deep with some cover, make sure snakes are in good condition, well-hydrated. I soaked females for a few minutes a week when gravid or not. No harm in the soaking.

Or switch to these.. no egg-binding as far as I know lol

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Mark

A friend had an obese rough-scaled sand boa that impacted with 2 fetuses. Not common but it can happen. The live bearers still have issues. I had a Argentine boa and a Solomon Island boa rip their oviducts during delivery and blow the babies out into their body cavities. Amazingly the Argentine boa lived.
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Rick Staub

HA HA! That boa right there is almost the exact opposite in care of almost everything we have been talking about.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Thanks for all the input guys! there was some things posted that I never heard before, but ultimately we all make the choices we feel is right. I still don't know if I'll breed that female Alterna. My head says no, my gut says yes. I'll wait and see if she begins to ovulate. Does anyone here feel that the chasing around the cage by the intended male for weeks, is extremely benificial to the conditioning of the female? Not only to get her receptive but also to give her much needed execise.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

If she is obese maybe being chased around by the male would be helpful, but if she is of normal weight when put with the male it seems that he would cause her to lose weight she would need for egg development. Ways to get exercise all year (except during brumation) would be better than just a burst of activity right when she needs her stores for reproduction. Interesting cage furnishings that promote activity, like tubes, rock piles, branches, deep bedding to tunnel through, would be good things to encourage exercise.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

yeah I agree that exercise all year round is better, but I think there is something very natural about the chasing and it may actually provide the muscle tine at the right time? No matter how much you diversify a cage it will become mondaine to the snake eventually, I think? I've been watching my snakes do the chase for a while now, and I can't help to think there is a good reason for it all. I know some people put them together and if they don't hook up within a short amount of time, they separate them. I leave them in all day. then try again the next day.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Most animals have some sort of courtship as a prelude to actual mating. Just tossing the pair together and expecting an instant hook up seems sort of unreasonable. I house mine together so the male has plenty of time to woo the female. This may help her ovulate better.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com