Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello Everybody, here's my scenario:

This is my first litter to be born, ever, and on top of being excited, I am super confused... I bred a female Albino 100%het Anery (Snow) to a male DH Sunglow. Seems pretty simple enough... nothing more "extreme" than Sunglows,given the genetics. Then , I get home this evening to find four "white" babies.... WTF?!?!

I ended up with 2 albinos and 2 sunglows,, 2 "ghosts" and 2"anery" and 2 hypo/ DH Sunglows? ... and these 4 awesome babies... ??SNOWS?? ?!?!?!?MOONGLOWS!?!?!?!??!

The parents of the DH Sunglow were said to be a pastel albino X hypo stripe(redline) and I bought the DH Sunglow at Daytona from a known breeder. So, I am really confused, he MUST have had the Anery gene too, yeah?

Ive never posted pictures on here before so I hope it worked and Im not sure how to post more than one, but I have more and will email anyone that needs better pics to help me figure this out!!

Thank you for your time and help!!!!

Sweet - you have to like nice surprises like this ! First, congrats on your first litter! Second, it looks to me that you have at least one Moonglow, and one Snow - I can't see the other ones to be sure what they are. The one that is out from the rest looks to me to be a Snow, and has one of the best patterns I have seen on a Snow - beautiful!! The one at the top of the picture looks to be a Moonglow from the pinched bowtie saddles.

I would contact each of the breeders you bought them from and see if they can give you more details on the lineage of the parents. There definitely was some Anery in there obviously somewhere, especially if this is the first litter for the female(to rule out sperm retention).

Congratulations again, and be sure to post more pictures.
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Kevin Blumenthal
www.blumenboas.com

I meant to say - contact the DH Sunglow breeder to get more info on the lineage.
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Kevin Blumenthal
www.blumenboas.com

>>Sweet - you have to like nice surprises like this !

Probably. But in some cases, people don't like surprises. Makes me wonder why breeders aren't just honest about possibilities.

I'm sure this person is happy about the results. But certainly you could understand where unwanted/undesired results pop up because of "lies of omission".

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

I most definitely can see the flip side of this, especially if this person had wanted/needed different results for future breedings.
Something like this could throw a monkey wrench in someone's breeding plans years down the road, as well as all of the other customers the breeder might have sold "DH Sunglows" to in Daytona.
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Kevin Blumenthal
www.blumenboas.com

Before upset at breeders or thinking they're deceitful or incompitent or something first of all be happy. Then consider in a hobby getting more and more exciting every passing day where you have tons of 66% hets bred again into other projects, many times 2-4 generations in, its no surprise that a het anery's or albinos will pop up unknowingly. I dont buy many probable or 66% and i do I dont give any value to the 66% (unless for special instances) as I dont like "luck" so i will many times not worry to prove out a gene and rather go with what i "know" and this is where I believe things like this happen. In fact this exact thing happened to me in 2009. I bred a Red Belly C.A. Boa to a Hypo C.A. Boa and got ghots and anerys as well as normals and Hypos. Neither animal was disclosed or perhaps even know to me or the breeder which i got them from to be het anery!! Most of the time breeders are trying to prove out the albino and this is why i believe the anery gene surprises more often than the albino. In your case you DH is in reality a Triple het. Its a hypo het for both 100% Albino and 100% Anery. AWESOME!!!!!!!

Thank you for your post!! I will agree and say that I don't ever mess with anything thats not 100% het or a visual and I don't see this as a "deceitful" act...I mean, really, I paid DH Sunglow prices for a 2 year old TH Moonglow male back in 08!!!! He would have cost wayyyyyy more back then, trust me!!! The more ironic thing is that I only got this snake because there was another breeder/ reptile business that was also at Daytona that owed me money for a snake, told me he had it, then refused to give me the money and instead told me to "go pick a snake worth what I owe you because I don't have the cash" while his "partners" were selling stuff and animals to people right next to us .... so I ended up finding this snake. THOSE are the really deceitful people in this industry that I cannot stand!!!

All that said, I AM happy with the results of this breeding, more than I can imagine. The odds are ridiculous that it's worked out this way. My friend that's into GTPs ( green tree pythons) just told me " Dude, just think, everything you've ever wanted to buy, pretty much, since I met you is all in that one litter!!!" So, yeah, I'm happy.

More than anything with the figuring out genetics is now I want to make sure I classify these as what they really are. I'm new to this and don't want to screw anyone or myself and/or look like a moron,lol.I know prices vary on genetics and so do what people actually want to spend their money on and what they expect to get for it!! That's all I'm worried about.

With that said, I have taken individual pics of these four and posting them to better show their markings and get some advice from you guys on here with more experience.

Thanks again!!

the correct classification of the visuals are......

Given in "Phenotype - Genotype"

Moonglow - Moonglow
Snow - Snow
Sunglow - Sunglow 66% het Moonglow
Ghost - Ghost 66% het Moonglow
Albino - Albino 66% het Snow
Anery - Anery 66% het Snow
Hypo - Hypo 66% het Albino and 66% het Anery
normal - 66% het Albino and 66% het Aner
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Thanks for all of your input!!! I will get better at this, I just knew something was DEFINITELY "off" when the first thing I saw was a white baby right off the bat!! So, definitely a surprise on the positive side!! I have a few more gravid girls, ones where there should be no surprises... ironically, this is the one pair I was thinking would be having just "ok" babies snakes with the current state of the market compared to when I bought these animals!! Thanks again!!

>>>Ghost - Ghost 66% het Moonglow
Anery - Anery 66% het Snow
Hypo - Hypo 66% het Albino and 66% het Anery
normal - 66% het Albino and 66% het Aner

One of the parents was an albino, this is what you really have:

Moonglow
Snow
Sunglow 66% het anery
Albino 66% het anery
Ghost 100% het moonglow
Anery 100% het albino
Hypo 100% het albino 66% het anery
Normal 100% het albino 66% het anery

Congrats on an awesome litter especially your first one.
Anthony-

Thank you for breaking this down for me!!!!!
Much appreciated, sorry for the delay in response!!

BOA #1

Moonglow...
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"Go Big or Go Home" Muscle Morph Constrictors Inc. Long Island, New York

BOA#2

Moonglow...
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"Go Big or Go Home" Muscle Morph Constrictors Inc. Long Island, New York

BOA#3

Snow...
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"Go Big or Go Home" Muscle Morph Constrictors Inc. Long Island, New York

BOA#4

Thank you to everyone / anyone that can help me out with this!! There is really no info,that I have found, online to really help tell a baby snow apart from a moonglow. I have 3 boa books but they don't get into the newer morphs like this either. I appreciate the help and info!!!!!

From what I can see in the pix i'd say 1 and 2 are Moonglows and 3 and 4 are Snows.

I would agree, 1 and 2 are Moonglows, 3 and 4 are Snows.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I agree with Ruben 1 & 2 are Moonglows and 3 & 4 are Snows

Congrats on a crazy great First litter !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

I agree 1 and 2 and moonglows and 3 and 4 are snows.

Secondly congrats on an outstanding litter with great odds and beautiful boas!!
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Brandon Nixon

Snow...
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"Go Big or Go Home" Muscle Morph Constrictors Inc. Long Island, New York

Nice Litter!

I bet the mom of the DH now TH boy you have is a Albino het Snow and not a "Pastel"(which gets tossed out there more and more these days)Albino. A lot of Albino het Snow animals get a lot of pink on their bodies which will make some people automatically call them Pastel or Coral just to spice up the animal eventhough they know their not from any known Pastel or Coral line. Which sucks cause it is misleading to people that don't know any better. In your case I bet your happier with the results you got then what you thought you were gonna get which is awesome. If you really want to get to the bottom of it contact the person you got the DH now TH from and ask about the moms parents. If the "known" breeder is calling her a Pastel Albino he probably doesn't realize she's Het Anery and i'd be willing to bet the person they got her from didn't mention that one of that females parents were Het Anery. Like others said,there's a lot of Anery genes floating around in a lot of animals that people don't realize. Just like you did,if your litter worked out the way it was supposed to you would've made a bunch of 50% het Anery animals that when sold you may or may not have mentioned cause they're only 50% het Anery. CONGRATS again on a nice litter! I see atleast one Moonglow in there and from the pic the rest of the 4 whites look like Snows but cant see 2 of them that good.

Hey, thanks for your input!! Yes, when I started getting into boas just a few years ago, I heard CORAL this and CORAL that everywhere.. then a few great breeders ( like Frank Martin,& Jeff Ronne ) explained the marketing game many people play with those titles. Since then, I have only bought 2 corals, both adults and there's no question as to the the coral intensity!! The first one was from Jeff Ronne and has set the coral "bar" for any other snake I look at with that title.

I did contact the guy I bought my male from, I have not heard back from him yet tho. When it comes to it, the babies don't lie... the sire HAS to be a TH.

I guess my only quest now is to find a definite way to distinguish snows from moonglows once and for all in case this happens again in the future. Any hints? All four of these boas have the "4-leaf clover" / hypo looking blotches near their tales and their eyes are similar from what I can tell. I'm wondering if it'll be easier to tell after they shed,also?

Thanks for your congrats and info!!!

"how to tell Snows from Moonglows"

Not always clear but IMO the best advice is look for the pattern influence of Hypo. Pinched saddles and reduced speckling. The Albino and Anery influence takes away all the hypo color effects leaving only the pattern to show visually.
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Talk about a nice suprise! Obviously your DH Sunglow is really a TH Moonglow! Congratulations!
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"Go Big or Go Home" Muscle Morph Constrictors Inc. Long Island, New York

congrats on a nice litter with beautiful results! That moonglow in the first pic will be soooooo white and the face is lovely =. What a sweetheart of a snake. Oh yes and all the rest look great. Welcome and thanks for sharing
Jake

I agree, # 1 and 2 look more like moonglows while # 3 and 4 look more like snows.

Congrats on such a great first litter James. With many more to come, thats for sure. You have some nice animals and with some super nice new ones on the way