Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I think this is sad, because at this price, what kind of care are they receiving? How can someone care for 1000, 500 or so baby ball pythons. Do they buy them just to look for morphs and then resell the rest? I do not know, I am just wondering, it seems like a ball should be a little more money than an iguana.

Dave

Ya, I think that's pretty sad...

Were did you see that at?
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-Lauren

~ Lauren's Lizards ~

groups.yahoo.com/group/LaurensLizards

Well there's two sides of the coin here. After 15 years taking this hobby seriously, I've found that this time of year tens of thousands of hatchling BP's are imported into the US. Yes there are the sellers that throw 50 or more to a tank, and try to make a quick buck (really bad idea-everyone's got 'em) Then there's the guys that set them up 10 or so to an enclosure (better-but only for a very short time) and at last we have the true keepers. One's who take the time to set-up each and every animal in a very well contained enviroment-one per cage so to speak- keeping them in optimum conditions from their first day in captivity. I've seen racks that will house 100 hatchlings easily in this manner-stacked accordingly, the length of walls for a 3,000 housing unit. Keep in mind these are the people who have lived and learned-plus have the monies to initially invest and properly care for these #'s. My guess is there's a lot more people buying 100-200 lots than there is 1,000 but still it is not rare in this industry for people to do so in that amount. Yea, it's sad to see how some aellers set-up there animals, but it comes w/ almost all of your more common reptiles. Through the years I've had lot pricing as low as $5.00 per animal. I've actually heard of much less in past years, and yes the animals are worth far more than that-but ultimately they are a common species that readily breed in captivity (in very high numbers in their place of origin) and although numbers are high, I still don't feel that they've become a "disposable" pet in the industry ie: the local fairs giving away baby green iguanas for prizes. I think sadly, that animals with all kinds of price tags from $2.00 to $2,000 are at the keepers mercy, I've seen Green Tree Frogs set-up in incredible surroundings, I've seen Albino Retics crawling in their own S**T, so the money doesn't matter - it's the keeper's choice - set them up right, and you'll have great success w/ low mortality rates and excellent feeding response whether you're buying 1 or 100. I see your point's and there worthy of concern but the season for these prices is very short, the guys that bought 100 to make some quick money will learn they will not if proper consideration to their requirments aren't met - yes the animals that fall in the hands of these people are at risk but hopefully most will find homes soon after, and get the proper care the they so much deserve. In short, I think if a seller sets them up poorly the first couple of times he buys a 100 lot, he will learn quickly, at the animals expense. Most of us (I hope) fill only our "empty cages" accordingly and nothing more. If money is the motivation, they will loose. Again, the time is short for these prices and we will blink and they'll be gone (the low prices that is) and hopefully not the animals themselves.

Very True,

I bought a lot of 50 hatchlings this season. They came in before their first shed and each has its own tub, fresh water, proper heat and food. None have died and eating hasn't been a problem. Some I plan to keep for my own projects and some I will sell. But I don't consider them lessor quality than a CB normal I hatch and care for in the same way. I treat my $6K axanthic and my $7 normals the same way. Sure some people don't care for them properly - thats why you have to be careful who you do business with.

Sijae

Hello...Ive lurked but never posted in this forum. But I wanted to make you aware that yes, unfortunatly, they have become "disposable" animals. I have attended fairs where baby balls were given as prizes. As a matter of fact my brother won one of these animals. It died a short time later. It could have been a sick animal to begin with or it could have been his lack of knowlege and experience. Either way, yes, they have reached that level. Its a shame that such a beautiful animal is mistreated like that and given to owners who know nothing about their needs.

Just nit picking, but you do know right that they don't captive breed thousands of these in Africa? They dig up eggs and gravid females. I'm not crazy about the term "Ranching" for this, I'm thinking it's more like "Hunting". Sure, if you get fresh ones there may not be much difference between the imports and the true captive bred but lets keep the details strait.

"they are a common species that readily breed in captivity (in very high numbers in their place of origin"

While field collecting is an obvious common practice for obtaining these animals, over the past decade or so a few of these "farms actually have very elaborate breeding programs going on. I feel captive propagation is becoming a far more common practice over there (so I've read or discussed w/ many that should have first hand knowledge) but yes, field collecting of gravid females still exists as well.

Can anyone else confirm ANY captive breeding in Africa, especially any first hand accounts?

It's just that I hear this a lot about them maybe having big pens and keeping the females multiple years and re-breeding them but it sounds too much like what we might want to hear.

In captivity over here it takes years to get a wild caught adult female acclimated to breed (generally longer than to grow up a captive hatched on). Maybe they have some sort of nearly wild situation over there that shortens this time.

I’m also skeptical that it would be economically feasible to raise carnivores for export over there. The amount of grain required to raise the feed animals could be put to better use than producing a normal ball python that they probably export for $0.50 – $1.50. I think the prices they get only work because they are harvesting a wild sown crop with very cheap labor.

This idea of mass semi-captive breeding in Africa may have even been put forward by a book on ball pythons, but I still question it. Call me cynical but the only first hand reports I've read are about digging them up each year during the season of gravid females and eggs. Maybe things have changed recently but I'm afraid it might just be a popular rumor.

Your points are very valid. I know of someone in the hobby that I've had the pleasure of doing business with for some time who spent many of months "in the field" in Africa on a ranch. I'll do my best to see if he'll post some of his first hand experiences here for all of our benefit. I totally agree with you in alot of ways. I just feel there has been a major increase in captive breedings of BP's in Africa. But like you said, "maybe that's what they want us to hear" and I only have second hand knowledge (having never had the chance to experience Africa first hand) but I'm hopeful that the conditions overall have improved since the market has increased dollarwise for Python regius. I know $65,000 a year is pretty good money over there and that's just monies made from one of many.

balls are at times $3 to 5

iguanas are less even....

yep...

and 1000.....how about 800,000......

sad....yes..die alot..yes......

but people buy them......at around $15 each alot....rather than pay the $40 to $100 for captive in US ones....

yep....

JYReptiles

Heh, I think that iguanas should be more than balls. They sure are a lot more work!
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-audri
Webpage/Pics

That's very funny, LOL!! They sure are a higher maintenance animal!!!

Let me state some facts.........
#1-There are no 800,00 ball pythons bieng imported.(Numbers range from 40-55,000-u.s.
#2 The african goverments have taken the care to only allow 2,000 ball pythons per shipment per day. per day doesnt happen. It is more like shipper ships once or twice per week.
#3 2/3 of these snakes are bought by gourmet rodent, mark bell, and others who set them up for the length of the year. They have contracts with petco and petsmart to sell them ball pythons among other animals they breed themselves. I have personally seen Gourmet Rodent buyy up to 18,000 at one shop. A buddy of mine has been to their facility and every single ball python is in its own tupperware and is fed once a week.
#4 You have to think this. If ball pythons were more expensive that would mean tens of thousands would be left to die in africa as why would importers import them if there are less buyers?? The cheap price facilitates quicker sales and thus the poor balls dont sit in africa to die. Plus supply exceeds demand most of the time except in the very beggining. Why do you think the price goes down by right about now? Ball Pythons in africa are about 4.00ea right now. The longer they sit there the health declines and more babies die. If they were even cheaper it would be great as more and more would be shipped out with more frequency thus reducing the deaths over in africa. I personally went through about 8,000 ball pythons this year. In all the shipments I could only recall seeing about 30 doa's. Out of the thirty 24 were runts which by natural selection probably would have died anyways. The biggest shipment I went through was 1,800 this year(beacuse of the reduction in numbers allowed per day) and there were no doas in that batch.
#5 Alot of people have the view that importers are banking millions off baby ball pythons, when in fact rarely do they make more than 2.00ea with the average only making .50cents to a dollar. The money is in feeding them. That is why lots and lots of people are holding them back till november december and get 25-35.00ea for them then. You cannot hold 2,000 baby balls stuffed in tanks together if your gonna feed them and have a high quality animal that needs to last till the no baby ball season. That takes time, effort, and money to do that. You have overhead(employees, mice, shavings, tupperare, racks, electricity, etc) to house ball pythons in number. You cannot feed 2,00 baby balls by throwing mice in a tank. It doesnt happen contrary to what anyone might say, it just doesnt.

I have for this year set aside 300 baby ball pythons. All are normal, all are fed once a week, all will be sold for 25-35 bucks..the later it gets the more expensive they get.
It is very easy if you have the time, employees(gourmet rodent has 50 of them!), and the space(they have warehouses full fo balls and other animals they personally breed).
After that it is in fact very easy to take care of 1,000 baby balls. In fact Gourmet rodent thius year is rumored to have bought over 25,000 baby balls. Now once petco has them, thats a different story!

Helping the importers by buying these animals even in the mere numbers that we do.If you look at it from this standpoint we're not exactly saviors like some have come to believe.Even if the importers/buyers manage to save one baby b/ps life from Africa doesnt mean that it still wont die by the hands of uncaring people,EXont properly house them,keep them at too low of temps,dont know ANYTHING about them at all,etc,etc,etc.The list goes on and on.Were not gods,we cant save all of these animals from the inevitable,DYING.Whether they die over there or over here its still the same outcome,The only difference is over here we just prolong it for a longer period of time (sometimes shorter).If we are the caring herpers we have come to name ourselves, then we would let nature take its course because either way they WILL die in the end no matter what we do to help them,its natures way of saying that only the strong survive.Its been that way for the last 4 million years and it isnt going to change no matter how much we do to try.