Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Someone on another site I frequent, posted this video1 She did a great job, and I thought I'd post it here. With all the debate over egg binding lately, I thought this would be good to know just in case.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>Someone on another site I frequent, posted this video1 She did a great job, and I thought I'd post it here. With all the debate over egg binding lately, I thought this would be good to know just in case.

She DOES do a good job.....Like she's done it too many times.....
Maybe she should fix the problem with egg binding instead of aspirating all the time.....Just my opinion.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

That's a low blow! Maybe she's a nurse? She first asked for advice, on what to do, so I don't think she'e done it before. I hope you never have an egg bound snake John!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>That's a low blow! Maybe she's a nurse? She first asked for advice, on what to do, so I don't think she'e done it before. I hope you never have an egg bound snake John!

You are right...maybe she is a nurse......

And you are too late....I have had an eggbound snake before......
And I have had them kill a female before...I've also had bound eggs pass on their own.....I've even palpitated them before......
All years ago before I adjusted my husbandry......

I hope you never have an egg bound snake Jorge.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John - I'm curious about your husbandry change that caused the absence of egg binding in your collection. I skimmed through your personal care sheet and couldn't find a direct answer (maybe I missed it).

Thanks!

>>John - I'm curious about your husbandry change that caused the absence of egg binding in your collection. I skimmed through your personal care sheet and couldn't find a direct answer (maybe I missed it).
>>
>>Thanks!

Maybe because I did not mention the way I used to keep my snakes in my caresheet........

I used to never provide a humidity gradient as I do now......
I used to feed on Sundays only.......
I used to never house pairs together through brumation and breeding season.
I used to use newspaper and a hide box....that is all......
I used to keep my snakes at around 80F and hope that there was a temperature gradient inside their tub.....
I never used Applegate enclosures or its concept in a tub.

Now compare that to my caresheet.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John, I have an egg bound female right now and here is my answer to all your changes....
I used to never provide a humidity gradient as I do now......
She has a hide box with damp moss and a dry hide at all times

I used to feed on Sundays only.......
I feed when hungry (every 2 -3 days they are offered food, they don't always eat) and this particular female ate all the way up to a week before her PLS

I used to never house pairs together through brumation and breeding season.
They were not brumated together as I didn't have her at that time

I used to use newspaper and a hide box....that is all......
I use about 3 inches of Sani Chips and Newspaper on top

I used to keep my snakes at around 80F and hope that there was a temperature gradient inside their tub.....
Temperature gradient is 84 at the back and 72at night and 75 (tops) during the day at the front

I never used Applegate enclosures or its concept in a tub.
Never used them but provide both damp and dry hides through out tub...

I will go one step further, I actually soak my females for about 20 min from day 2 - 5 after PLS to keep them hydrated. And the whole left side of the tub(front to back) is a mixture of moss and peat with 2 shoe box lids on top with the water bowl on top of that...

So if husbandry is always the issue, why is she laying the first four no problem(all good eggs BTW) and then hold six in her? My theory is the 5th egg is to large to pass or has stuck to the lining? So far this year I have had 5 clutches, with every female laying no later than day 7, two actually laid on day 5, 6 hrs after their daily soaking...I believe that feeding large quantities closer to PLS may in certain individual snakes make the eggs to large to pass... Just my opinion.....Go ahead guys tear this apart....I am not afraid....LOL
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Jimmy Tintle

>>So if husbandry is always the issue, why is she laying the first four no problem(all good eggs BTW) and then hold six in her? My theory is the 5th egg is to large to pass or has stuck to the lining? So far this year I have had 5 clutches, with every female laying no later than day 7, two actually laid on day 5, 6 hrs after their daily soaking...I believe that feeding large quantities closer to PLS may in certain individual snakes make the eggs to large to pass... Just my opinion.....Go ahead guys tear this apart....I am not afraid....LOL

You may be correct that unusually large or malformed eggs can cause egg binding. If had to guess I would say that the remaining eggs may be infertile......maybe a vet visit and some potocin is in order........

If feeding too heavily caused this in a thayeri I am in for lots of egg bound females.......isn't feeding an aspect of husbandry?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

If feeding too heavily caused this in a thayeri I am in for lots of egg bound females.......isn't feeding an aspect of husbandry?

Didn't say Thayeri, said certain individual snakes. I am not one to say certain subspecies or even species for that matter....I remember reading Rick's post about a certain female always retaining the last egg....That doesn't happen with all of that species but with that certain individual snake....Just kinda thinking out loud....And yes John feeding is under husbandry...

Vet visit is on Monday, if the Easter bunny doesn't help pass them along....
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Jimmy Tintle

>>If feeding too heavily caused this in a thayeri I am in for lots of egg bound females.......isn't feeding an aspect of husbandry?
>>
>>Didn't say Thayeri, said certain individual snakes. I am not one to say certain subspecies or even species for that matter....I remember reading Rick's post about a certain female always retaining the last egg....That doesn't happen with all of that species but with that certain individual snake....Just kinda thinking out loud....And yes John feeding is under husbandry...
>>
>>Vet visit is on Monday, if the Easter bunny doesn't help pass them along....
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>>Jimmy Tintle

I hope the Easter Bunny does his job Jimmy........
And I, too am one that believes snakes are individually different.........in personality and anatomy...........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

In my opinion, snakes in the wild are more active, looking for food, moving around all the time. They have more body muscle, there in better shape, so it's easier to push out those eggs.
Captive breeding;
There laying in their boxes, shoveing food down there throats intill they can hardly move. When it comes time to push out their eggs, there so out of shape, they can only push out part of there clutch.
This is just a guess, and maybe has nothing to do with snakes laying eggs, or getting egg bound, but it sounds like a legit reason to me, and could play a part in any living animal giving birth or laying eggs.
Just a Thought!
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

They have more body muscle, there in better shape, so it's easier to push out those eggs.
Captive breeding;
There laying in their boxes, shoveing food down there throats intill they can hardly move. When it comes time to push out their eggs, there so out of shape, they can only push out part of there clutch

Egg binding has nothing to do with excercise. Lack of muscle is associated with dehydration.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Egg binding has nothing to do with excercise. Lack of muscle is associated with dehydration.
Although I do believe exercise has much to do with being strong enough to lay eggs, being dehydrated from not having a moist lay nest or from the common practice of removing the water bowl just before she is due to lay could definitely factor in.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

"Egg binding has nothing to do with excercise"

I don't think anyone on this planet knows that egg-binding has "nothing to do" with excersise and good muscle tone, or strength/stamina. All these factors combined with being well-hydrated could indeed make all the difference in any given clutch. I think it is possible that if any of those key elements are missing, there could always be a possibility of egg-binding.

Also, egg-binding more than likely could easily have alot to do with the texture of any given egg that is lined-up inside the females uterus.

Anything can happen with a live animal, as no two are the same, or have the exact same anatomy anyway. All anyone can do is make the conditions as optimum as possible, and hope things go well.

I have a friend that had two giant piles of monster eggs from one of his Hondurans last year, and one of the eggs that she laid in the pile was bluish colored and STUNK to high-heaven. Now I am willing to bet that the smelly bluish egg had nothing to do with poor husbandry whatsoever. Many things happen in this universe that we don't understand at ALL, and I don't think any human has all the answers to egg-binding, or most anything else either when it comes to animals or anything else in this natural universe to be quite honest..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

I don't think anyone on this planet knows that egg-binding has "nothing to do" with excersise and good muscle tone, or strength/stamina

Doug,
You can't "tone" a muscle. You either have high or low bodyfat.

Muscle "tone" is a misnomer. There is no such thing as muscle "TONE". You either have muscle or you don't. The word "tone" comes from fitness TV and health magazines. You either have a high percentage of muscle or you don't. Then if you have low bodyfat people call it "tone". But you can have a high percentage of muscle (like a body builder) or low muscle percent (like a maraton runner or triathlete) they both have low bodyfat.

So the real issue here is wether a snake is fat or skinny. And that come from proper feeding-not excerise! because they will have good muscle from proper feeding and hybdration..

Doug, when was the last time you caught a kingsnake with lots of muscle? probably not many. Wild caughts usually have low muscle due to not getting enough food..

I captivity it has to do with FOOD and HYDRATION for good muscle.
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www.Bluerosy.com

You should inform the medical dictionaries, as they all have definitions for muscle tone.

You should inform the medical dictionaries, as they all have definitions for muscle tone.

Yep they use it as well. I know.

Look, you have only two types of tissue here. As we are talking about... Muscle and fat. Any combination thereof is either high or low. But muscle itself does not get "tone" in of iteself, unless you mean low bodyfat.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Those guys with big muscles get it from drinking lot's of water, and eating a lot? That sounds like a system I can do, lol. Sign me up!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Jorge,
Listen, just send 3 easy payments of $39.99 and you to can get sleek toned muscles .......

and you won't have to hide behind the computer..

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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Jorge,
>>Listen, just send 3 easy payments of $39.99 and you to can get sleek toned muscles .......
>>
>>and you won't have to hide behind the computer..

I seen your last picture, I'm not scared bro, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I seen your last picture, I'm not scared bro, lol.

No matter what you say i am not taking my shirt off for you bro!
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www.Bluerosy.com

See how you think everything is about you, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

While "toned" may be common parlance among body builders, it is not medically correct terminology. They go for hypertrophy (muscles pumped to grotesque size) combined with very low body fat (less than 5% for the serious ones) to get the ripped look. You can certainly have muscles just as large and powerful (or more so) and not look like that. Power lifters tend to, IME, be stronger at most lifts but definitely do not look like body builders (as I used to be a power lifter, I could be biased here).

You can certainly alter the size of your muscles depending on how you lift--long lean muscles from high sets and reps, larger more bulky ones from lower sets and reps with a higher weight, etc, but to make them show up, it's all about cutting body fat. As a power lifter, I never much cared except about staying in the right weight class.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

my point is that just food, and water doesn't build or tone, or strengthen muscles, without execise. You are correct power lifters are stronger, but still from exercise.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

While "toned" may be common parlance among body builders, it is not medically correct terminology. They go for hypertrophy (muscles pumped to grotesque size) combined with very low body fat (less than 5% for the serious ones) to get the ripped look. You can certainly have muscles just as large and powerful (or more so) and not look like that. Power lifters tend to, IME, be stronger at most lifts but definitely do not look like body builders (as I used to be a power lifter, I could be biased here).

You can certainly alter the size of your muscles depending on how you lift--long lean muscles from high sets and reps, larger more bulky ones from lower sets and reps with a higher weight, etc, but to make them show up, it's all about cutting body fat. As a power lifter, I never much cared except about staying in the right weight class.

That was my point in my post. There is no such thing as toned muscles. Either you have low bodyfat or high bodyfat.

Also the word "toned" is not used by bodybuilders (at least not professionals or those who know what they are talking about). Someone said it was used in medical termenolgy. Which i stated was incoorect.

Also I disagree with your statement about "long lean muscles". There is also no such thing.

A muscle 9wether a bodybuilder or pwerlifter etc) size is based upon how strong a muscle is. The bigger the muscle the stroger the muscle. Bodybuilder do different lifts than powerlifters. While bodybuilders are stroger overall. A powerlifter is just strong in certain movements. A large professional bodybuilder is stong in all sorts of movements a powerlifter would never train in as much.

Also the reason poewerlifters don't look ss "grotesque" , as you put it, is because they have a higher bodyfat. That hides the muscles.

Again snakes don't need to work out. They live in holes. they have great muscle percent when fed well. A skinny snake is either one who has not fed much in a long time. Or is dehydrated. Feed s anke well it will have the proper muscle percentage that it should.

And most well fed snskes in captivity do have this!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Hi,

People think that their muscles are being toned when they are exercising and getting stronger; when in fact, they are just getting more muscle mass (growth) from exercise. They are getting stronger because their muscles are growing. Our snakes have a similar type of muscle mass, it's not a matter of better or worse, toned or not.

Folks get stronger when their muscles grow. Joe Workout does not improve the performance of the lean mass that he currently has, he gets more of it from muscle shock, food and rest...and sometimes chemicals. Unless he or she is also experiencing excess fat loss because of the strenuous exercise, our trainee will absolutely see an increase in weight as well.

If a snake has muscle, then that muscle is usable metabolic mass. It likely has more fat also. Fat is fuel and powers metabolism. If it is skinny, then it has less mass and is therefore weaker. I haven't seen any ripped, vascular kingsnakes recently, my strong ones are a little on the chunkier side, kinda like me.

Will

Good thoughts as well, and very legit!!
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Genesis 1:1

NP
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www.Bluerosy.com

John, how long have you been using all these new methods and are they tried and proven yet?
I do know of some old school keepers who still experience egg binding on occasion no matter the husbandry and I imagine it does occur in the wild just no proof. You know even women in great shape still experience breach births.
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Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

>>John, how long have you been using all these new methods and are they tried and proven yet?
>>I do know of some old school keepers who still experience egg binding on occasion no matter the husbandry and I imagine it does occur in the wild just no proof. You know even women in great shape still experience breach births.

Only 2.5 years and I'd say they AREN'T proven yet......They are still new to me for sure.....

And I agree......Each snake can differ regardless of husbandry....
Anatomy problems are my guess as the cause...that are malformed eggs.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

There is a direct relationship, dehydration and egg binding. its normally cause by females holding the eggs to long due to poor nesting. This is with healthy females. This is by far the most common cause. Again Poor Nesting

Of course unhealthy females can have all manner of infections that will also cause retention of eggs.

The above nesting shows the eggs in a tight ball, which is what they do with good nesting. This is natural to them. It also shows a space around the eggs, which again is what they normally do. Again, snakes have nesting BEHAVIORS.

When eggs are scattered in a plastic box it tells you they were poorly laid, or worse lay in the open or in the water bowl.

Most commonly recipe nesting causes simply difficult nesting. But all it takes is a little neglect and you will recieve poor nesting.

Good nesting does not cause the female to become dehydrated, not in nature or in captivity. In fact, you can hardly tell they laid eggs. The skinny female is something odd, keepers for some reason think thats the way its suppose to be. That is wrong.

With good nesting choices, females can and will deposit their eggs the day after they shed. Which saves them lots of energy and prevents lots of stress.

As with everything, there is a range of success or failure. And a range of nesting methods. From good to very bad.

Its just so simple to provide good nesting, but sadly most don't. Its a little inconvienent for the keeper.

>>John - I'm curious about your husbandry change that caused the absence of egg binding in your collection. I skimmed through your personal care sheet and couldn't find a direct answer (maybe I missed it).
>>
>>Thanks!

Oh...and I used to just provide a box with some moss in it as a lay box instead of a nesting area.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

It is funny this post on eggs comes on easter with easter eggs hunts taking place today.

First of all as one who has palpitated many MANY snakes I can tell you it is extremely stressful on a snake to do so. Also if you try and do not succeed. then the snake is weakened even more.

if you take the snake to a vet, it must be a very experienced vet with this process. There are not many in this country . So be aware when you take a snake to a vet and they read up on the process in the backroom office and then try and attempt it for the first or second time. Most all vets DO NOT and ARE NOT experinced with the proper ways to remove eggs. Most will do it when it is not even neccessary. So find a good herop vet way in advance and don't rely on the yellow pages right before something happens. You might have to travel great distances to find someone who can do this. So be prepared in advance! Make some calls and do some research on vets for snakes and especially one that has a LOT of experience with colubrids!!!!!

After a snake lays a clucth and retains an agg, the female is already at a very physically low point already. . That is why they normally don't eat even right after laying an "entir"e clutch. Much more trying so hard to get out that single last egg that they are completly exhaussted! So if you "HAVE TO" try palpitating yourself. At least wait a week before attempting. OR do it right after she layed the clucth so she is still dialated. Then IF you do, you must be prepared to spend at least 10 minutes keeping the pressure on the egg to get it to move. Any more time than that and you don't know what you are doing. I would not advise trying this however unless you have done it before successfully.

In some cases the egg can have some skin preventing the egg from passing. Even though the egg is positioned right at the vent. It cannot pass due to a prolapsed oviduct. This is bad news if that happens.

With a prolaps you have two choices. You can take the snake to the vet and the vet should know enough to use a hard type spary apparatus (I don't know the name of it) which sprays a hard jet stream of water into the the snake and will open the oviduct to allow the egg to pass. So surgery in this cases is not neccessary.

However I have found that if one allows the swelling to go down these eggs eventurally do pass on their own.

IMO if you have an egg bound snake. Leave it alone unless you have experience and experimented on some "poor" snakes beforehand. because the manipulation takes experience and trial and error (something i learned the hard way at the expense of the snake). In the end it is not worth putting the snake through that unless you can do it quickly and not to further stress the snake out,.. only to find out you are unsuccessful. If you do have expereince, be prepared to do it as quick as possible to eleviate any stress on the snakes. By that I mean- don't attempt and then give up and then attempt again later the next day etc. That is just torturous on the female who is already completly taxed and weak. Once you start this process you are in it for the long haul and then only to find out the tissues are preventing (blocking) the egg from coming out.

IMO it is best to just leave the snake alone and wait it out. Then next year make a special not of that female who retained an egg the previous season and try different husbandry like higher humidity and more frequent feedings to fatten a female up before she gets gravid.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>It is funny this post on eggs comes on easter with easter eggs hunts taking place today.
>>
>>
>>First of all as one who has palpitated many MANY snakes I can tell you it is extremely stressful on a snake to do so. Also if you try and do not succeed. then the snake is weakened even more.
>>
>>
>>if you take the snake to a vet, it must be a very experienced vet with this process. There are not many in this country . So be aware when you take a snake to a vet and they read up on the process in the backroom office and then try and attempt it for the first or second time. Most all vets DO NOT and ARE NOT experinced with the proper ways to remove eggs. Most will do it when it is not even neccessary. So find a good herop vet way in advance and don't rely on the yellow pages right before something happens. You might have to travel great distances to find someone who can do this. So be prepared in advance! Make some calls and do some research on vets for snakes and especially one that has a LOT of experience with colubrids!!!!!
>>
>>After a snake lays a clucth and retains an agg, the female is already at a very physically low point already. . That is why they normally don't eat even right after laying an "entir"e clutch. Much more trying so hard to get out that single last egg that they are completly exhaussted! So if you "HAVE TO" try palpitating yourself. At least wait a week before attempting. OR do it right after she layed the clucth so she is still dialated. Then IF you do, you must be prepared to spend at least 10 minutes keeping the pressure on the egg to get it to move. Any more time than that and you don't know what you are doing. I would not advise trying this however unless you have done it before successfully.
>>
>>In some cases the egg can have some skin preventing the egg from passing. Even though the egg is positioned right at the vent. It cannot pass due to a prolapsed oviduct. This is bad news if that happens.
>>
>>With a prolaps you have two choices. You can take the snake to the vet and the vet should know enough to use a hard type spary apparatus (I don't know the name of it) which sprays a hard jet stream of water into the the snake and will open the oviduct to allow the egg to pass. So surgery in this cases is not neccessary.
>>
>>However I have found that if one allows the swelling to go down these eggs eventurally do pass on their own.
>>
>>IMO if you have an egg bound snake. Leave it alone unless you have experience and experimented on some "poor" snakes beforehand. because the manipulation takes experience and trial and error (something i learned the hard way at the expense of the snake). In the end it is not worth putting the snake through that unless you can do it quickly and not to further stress the snake out,.. only to find out you are unsuccessful. If you do have expereince, be prepared to do it as quick as possible to eleviate any stress on the snakes. By that I mean- don't attempt and then give up and then attempt again later the next day etc. That is just torturous on the female who is already completly taxed and weak. Once you start this process you are in it for the long haul and then only to find out the tissues are preventing (blocking) the egg from coming out.
>>
>>IMO it is best to just leave the snake alone and wait it out. Then next year make a special not of that female who retained an egg the previous season and try different husbandry like higher humidity and more frequent feedings to fatten a female up before she gets gravid.
>>-----
>>www.Bluerosy.com
>>

Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

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Jimmy Tintle

Thank u for sharing the video, a friend just sent me the link and even though I have aspirated eggs with success I still found it very informative and interesting. Contrary to what some may think ideal husbandry would be snakes in the wild not in totes or bins or aquariums ECT.... But since we as captive breeders can't emulate what would occur naturally not even in a zoo we will always need good advice on what needs to be done to save the animal or help alleviate some pain if this situation ever arises in our personal collections. I would rather a informative video than someone wing it and butcher the animal. I think egg binding has many factors to little excersise, maybe poor food items or to little variety in the food we feed, maybe breeding at to young of age or maybe inbreeding. But since I am not God I don't know all the answers. But even in so called perfect husbandry situations it still happens. I hope no one has to experience it.
Happy Easter everyone.
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Michelle
www.AssortedSerpents.com
All things bright and beautiful,
All creatures great and small,
All things wise and wonderful,
The Lord God made them all.

Very true indeed. Nice to hear some honesty here for once. The "I'm the best BS" posts do old and tiring.
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I never give them hell, I give them the truth and they think it's hell!

If more colubrid guys had balls (pythons) they wouldn't need to lie in police reports.

www.hognosefarm.com

>>Thank u for sharing the video, a friend just sent me the link and even though I have aspirated eggs with success I still found it very informative and interesting. Contrary to what some may think ideal husbandry would be snakes in the wild not in totes or bins or aquariums ECT.... But since we as captive breeders can't emulate what would occur naturally not even in a zoo we will always need good advice on what needs to be done to save the animal or help alleviate some pain if this situation ever arises in our personal collections. I would rather a informative video than someone wing it and butcher the animal. I think egg binding has many factors to little excersise, maybe poor food items or to little variety in the food we feed, maybe breeding at to young of age or maybe inbreeding. But since I am not God I don't know all the answers. But even in so called perfect husbandry situations it still happens. I hope no one has to experience it.
>>Happy Easter everyone.
>>-----
>>Michelle
>>www.AssortedSerpents.com
>>All things bright and beautiful,
>>All creatures great and small,
>>All things wise and wonderful,
>>The Lord God made them all.

Very Well said Michelle.
Happy Easter to you to!
Bob B
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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

Very good input Michelle!
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Genesis 1:1

>>Thank u for sharing the video, a friend just sent me the link and even though I have aspirated eggs with success I still found it very informative and interesting. Contrary to what some may think ideal husbandry would be snakes in the wild not in totes or bins or aquariums ECT.... But since we as captive breeders can't emulate what would occur naturally not even in a zoo we will always need good advice on what needs to be done to save the animal or help alleviate some pain if this situation ever arises in our personal collections. I would rather a informative video than someone wing it and butcher the animal. I think egg binding has many factors to little excersise, maybe poor food items or to little variety in the food we feed, maybe breeding at to young of age or maybe inbreeding. But since I am not God I don't know all the answers. But even in so called perfect husbandry situations it still happens. I hope no one has to experience it.
>>Happy Easter everyone.

Great points...no arguments there.....We really don't know.....
I hope I don't experience it again, but I am sure anyone with a large amount of animals will.......Not everyone keeps animals the same so that video is truly informative contrary to my first reply calling her a pro at it.....Newbies that see this will know what to do when their females get egg bound and they want to choose the aspirate method.....

Thanks for sharing things in your perspective......And shedding more light on the subject for me Michelle......

Happy Easter to you and your family too Michelle......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Again your wrong and rationalizing your lack of understanding.

Yes, you can nest them correctly, and so can zoos, what is wrong is you don't.

Proper nesting has been known and used for 35 years now.

The problem is, its very easy to rationalize not applying it. After all, its work and lord knows most avoid that.(when it comes to reptiles)

Oh thank you old wise one, for gracing our presents, but this video was really what to do once we've got egg binding. Kinda like telling a pregnant teen she should have kept her legs closed! We debated the causes of egg binding quite a bit in recent posts. Why can't people just take a post for what it is?

I tried to stay off this thread after the first, ignorant comment, but man there's too many of you.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>I tried to stay off this thread after the first, ignorant comment, but man there's too many of you.

Yep...sorry for being so ignorant......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Ya , me too. Sorry for being ignorant!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Frank's point is valid. Husbandry is the likely cause of 99% of these cases and the issues don't start and end with proper nesting either. I do believe however that there are occasions when natural function goes awry without external cause. In those rare cases its nice to know what can be done.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

This is a bit odd too. You said, 99% is caused by poor husbandry. So why mention that one percent could be spontainous.

I would think that is something fails in your care, you are responsible. End of that story.

The point here is, the one I responded too, said, its going to happen because we cannot copy nature, not even zoos can. This is the problem.

The standard nesting techiques that are used for colubrids, are Terrible. Marginal at best.

As far as I can tell, its the box in a box, syndrone. That is, people keep snakes in mostly small boxes, then think the nest must go inside the already small box. This is wrong.

Reptiles nests are very critical to recruitment. They are not small. They cannot be. The reason is simple, they must have mass to maintain both temps and humidity for a couple months.

This is what snakes are looking for. Something down or in, with stable humidity and stable temps.

Yes I know, up north some snakes nest under little stones. Well in most cases, we aint up north and do not have those conditions.

Back to the point, nesting issues can easily be avoided. But most people live in a bandaid world, so they would rather put a bandaid on it, then fix the problem. After all, if there was no problem, there would be no bandaids.

Relax Frank I wasn't disagreeing with you. Was just trying to say that when it does happen and you can't discern an environmental cause its nice to know what to do. After the fact some measures need to be taken agreed?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I for one, am glad we have bandaids
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I know what it is and what its used for, I did that exact method 40 years ago. Thats how you learn.

It wasn't the method, it was her attitude about its going to happen there is nothing we can do about it, it occurs in zoos, etc, yada yada yada. Thats what I am complaining about.

The truth is, it can be avoided, by paying attention to nesting and health. As in, good husbandry.

Fair enough, but I believe she is correct, in that once you put an animal in confined quarters you are already, starting on the wrong foot. Captive conditions will never simulate a perfect enviroment.

by the way why is there a big FR and a little fr, hmmm?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

she is not correct, they can be nested very well, if you take a little care and effort.

Its not even that much effort. And once you see it, you will stop torturing your animals from that point on.

All you have to do is literally step out of the box your in. You think in terms of boxes in boxes. Sir, what makes you think that way.

Just as easily as putting a small nesting box in your cage, your can put your cage in a big nesting box. Think about that.

After you think about that, please talk to me. Thanks

Another thing to consider is adequate calcium. Both skeletal and smooth muscle contractility, depend on calcium ions. If the snake hasn't eaten in a while due to being gravid, and has depleted her blood calcium levels shelling the clutch, she may not be able to successfully push out the eggs. Before trying to palpate out or aspirate the eggs-stressing and potentially injuring the snake- fluids should be given with calcium and vitamins etc to rehydrate and replenish. Especially if she's already passed some eggs successfully. Hormones can also be given to induce laying if you're sure there's no obstruction. Snakes don't respond well to oxytocin. Usually prostaglandins are preferred. If you're palpating, it should be done under sedation anyway, with a vet standing by in case something goes wrong. Most good vets will recognize owners who have more experience with their particular animals and allow you to be involved in their treatments.

If a snake is egg-bound, rarely is it an immediate, life-threatening emergency (like it can be with birds and turtles etc). You'll end up causing more damage trying to resolve it yourself if you don't know what you're doing than you would taking the time to get her to a vet. Even if you can resolve it, you are going to be causing your snake quite a bit of stress and pain in the process. At the very least, you should have your vet hook you up with oral and/or injectble calcium and fluids to have on-hand during laying season and show you how to administer them.

Good advice! I mentioned Calcium before and I was pounded for it, lol. Muscles need calcium, not just bones.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Good advice! I mentioned Calcium before and I was pounded for it, lol. Muscles need calcium, not just bones

If you are feeding your snake proper size food items succh as chicks and adult mice there would be no reason to add calcium.

But if you are feeding your snakes PINKIES or FUZZIES. Then I guess they would be calcium deficient...E).. now wouldn't they!
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>Good advice! I mentioned Calcium before and I was pounded for it, lol. Muscles need calcium, not just bones
>>
>>If you are feeding your snake proper size food items succh as chicks and adult mice there would be no reason to add calcium.
>>
>>But if you are feeding your snakes PINKIES or FUZZIES. Then I guess they would be calcium deficient...E).. now wouldn't they!
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>>www.Bluerosy.com
>>

So waht do you feed your hatchlings? Chopped up adult mice? I don't see your point. I feed my animals the apropriate sized meals. I try to get them on hoppers and adults as soon as i can. Egg laying can deplete calcium levels in females. Especially if they are laying 2 and 3 clutches a year.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

So waht do you feed your hatchlings? Chopped up adult mice?

I feed my newborns pinkies maybe once or twice. Then it is onto fuzzies.

Some babies i start on fuzzies with their first meal (yep they can get it down).

The secret is to give them a growth spurt so that YOU CAN feed them chicks or more mature mice w/ cacium.

Saying you feed you snake pinkies...Means to me that is what you are actually feeding them on a regular babsis. There should be no basis to feed pinks on a regular basis. Thses KING snakes are designed to have great growth spurts due to them being mostly snake feeders in teh wild. Survival depends on size and strength. Feed you snakes well in the first 9 months and they should look like this.

9 month old:

Do they all get this big in 9 months? NO! But you should see what is possible and strive to make your snakes as healthy as possible and feeding them in from the get-go will make a captive snake healthier and live longer than a finicky snakes

BTW finicky snakes come from not feeding neonates properly. What happens these snakes don't have the survival rate that well fed individuals have and they succumb to assciated problems later down the road. basically it makes them sickly or prone to it by not giving them appropriate size meals to accomodate a growth spurt in the first year.

Also, after neonates start on fuzzies i immdiatly start them on chick heads (the heads of baby chicks...yep beaks and all!)

The heads snap off real easy when frozen and the heads go to younger snakes and all the rest get headless chicks.LOL!

It also saves you big $$ and gives the snakes the calcium they need. Try it sometime!

When I take the frozen chicks out of the bag i have one bin I place the heads in and another for the headless bodies to defrost. TRhey all get sperated here routinly. Baby chicks are really cheap and you can feed the heads to neonates and the bodies to adults.

Simple calcium proiblem solved. That'll be $400. for advice!
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www.Bluerosy.com

OK so you would never have a scrawny, underfed snake? I see...Well, that settles it then.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Blue Rosy-no offense, but you totally missed the point.

We're not talking about a chronic calcium deficiency from less than ideal diet causing egg binding. You'd have to raise a snake its entire life on nothing but pinkies then try and breed it for something like that to be a consideration. We're talking about BLOOD calcium levels dropping due to the physiological demands of depositing shells on eggs and increased smooth muscle contractions of the oviduct needed move the eggs along causing an acute depletion of BLOOD levels that affects the snake's ability to continue passing eggs normally. This depletion can happen at a rate faster than the calcium can be mobilized back into the blood stream from the bones and lead to muscles being physically unable to contract and expel the eggs. Think of it like an electrolyte imbalance from extreme exertion causing an athlete to collapse.

It's only one potential cause of egg-binding, hadn't been mentioned in this thread yet, and is easily resolved. Injecting calcium gluconate and/or giving oral calcium glubionate along with supportive fluids to hydrate is much safer than trying to manually force eggs out or aspirate them through the body wall. Screw either of those up, and you've killed your snake...after causing it considerable pain and stress. Sure, we all need to try our best to prevent these problems in the first place with proper husbandry, but sometimes sh*t happens. We need to know how to recognize and deal with it with the animal's best interest in mind.

Actually I was responding to A15Fish regarding feeding large mature mice or chicks which have more calcium. This arguement goes a way back and was not intended to raise the question wether a snake needs more calcium (because it does during egg devposation)but was in response to AA15Fish's previous posts questioning snakes that are underfed.

A neonate that is fed proper large meals while pushing for more mature rodents and chick is not calcium deficient as other snakes that are 1-3 years old and still being fed springly and small meals (less mature mice).

I feed most of my adult Florida kings chicks. So I assume they have more calcium being they have more bones than mice. I would think that a properly fed snake (from day one) does not need extra calcium.

But yes, I agree that a female that is breeding age does need to be fed heavily before the egg process and through out.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Thanks for clearing that up! I'll admit I wasn't exactly clear on the reason they needed the extra calcium, I just remember reading that they did. I thought it was more fore the muscle then the Blood, but you cleared that up, thanks.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Not to start a fight, but this is like most discussions here. Your last post is out of context, and meaningless.

Its what you feed ADULTS THATS IMPORTANT.

I do disagree with Bluerosy on this, I think pinkies and fuzzies have great calicum content. At least enough to support rapid growth in juviniles and that is far more of a calicum load then gravid females.

Consider, a neonate if fed, will double the mass of its skeleton in a week. Way more important.

I do disagree with Bluerosy on this, I think pinkies and fuzzies have great calicum content

I think you are talking about calcium ratios per weight of a pinky compared to a large mouse or chick. With that i don't disagree. But like I said i feed chick heads instead of fuzzies if the snakes take them. And they do. I also supplement the chick heads with occasional fuzzies, and hoppers. The idea is to raise up the snake to be strong and healthy as quickly as possible. I see lots of 2-3 year old kings that are still less than 15" inches and they become finicky problem feeders because they have been fed pinkies.

Then why do snakes fed on a pinky diet never grow like they should?

I know the answer to that. Because people would have to feed them enough. And they don't! In my expererince a snake won't fill up on several pinkies like they would on a larger mouse. Which they also won't do because if they eat 3 or 4 they tend to stop. Then digestion is far more rapid and the kingsnake would have to be fed more frequently. So on a practical level it also does not work well? or does it? If so, what about the expence? why would you attempt that?

As far as the calcium levels in a pinky. I think they are mostly made up of water. There is just less there to digest. Have you ever seen a dreid up pinky? There is not really much there!

Aren't calcium ratios per weight of 3 pinkies vs an adult mouse or baby chick outweighed by an adult? Correct me if I am wrong?

Also there is just not much nutrient for rapid growth with a pinky diet. And that is what we are really strarted talking about here. The faster a snake grows, the better . The better chance it has of surviving.

At least these are my thoughts.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Read his lips> "Consider, a neonate if fed, will double the mass of its skeleton in a week. Way more important."
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

You guys are comparing apples to oranges. A HEALTHY snake has more than enough calcium to shell her eggs and allow her energy to push them out. For most snakes total body calcium deficit is NOT a problem that causes egg binding. However, if you have a snake who is dehydrated, or did not have a good nest box, now the eggs have been in there too long when she finally started to lay. Now she is trying to push eggs out of an oviduct that is likely dry and inflamed. This is a snake who is in TROUBLE. Now you have a snake that is becoming exhausted. Now Its not about total body calcium, or calcium in the diet, its about the amount of calcium present in muscle at that moment and how fast she can mobilize that calcium from her skeleton and get it to her muscles.

Calcium is not preventative or causative of egg binding (dehydration and poor nesting do that) but calcium is absolutely one of the most effective and safe treatments to try before trying anything heroic. Seen it work many times.

True, calcium can't move though dehydrated tissues.
How would you suggest supplementing a snake in need of a calcium boost(aside from rehydration?)
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.