Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Dotz, my pyro who laid her 7 egg clutch on the 25th, enjoying her second big meal, a big batch of 11 large live pinks. What an appetite! She is rapidly putting the weight back on, having gained 20 grams in just three days. I'll be feeding her her fill every few days. I know it is recommended to feed them fuzzies but my pyros sometimes turn their noses up at anything bigger than a large pink. Whatever they will eat is what they get.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

She really is a very pretty Pyro Bob!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Thanks, Jorge! She will look even better once she regains her full weight.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

{b]Whatever they will eat is what they get.{/b[

Amen to that!

I like that you are giving her her fill. Maybe she will double for you later this summer.
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www.Bluerosy.com

b]Whatever they will eat is what they get.{/b[

I like that you are giving her her fill. Maybe she will double for you later this summer.
I don't try to argue with them; they are the boss and I try to follow their lead.

Do you mean she will double in weight or have a double clutch season? I don't plan to breed her again this year, if that is what you mean.
She did a bang up job with this first clutch, and will get the rest of the season to regain her stores and grow some more. She is just an '08, not full grown yet.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

She already bred and she can double clutch without reintroduction of the male......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

She already bred and she can double clutch without reintroduction of the male......
I didn't think pyromelana could do double clutches. The second clutch would be born so late in the year they would almost have to go straight into hibernation if they were in the wild. Do you have any pyros that have double clutched?
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

They can double and triple clutch. Why would you think they cannot?

They can double and triple clutch. Why would you think they cannot?
Because of the harsh montane environment they are native to. If they were a Florida type snake with more benevolent temps all year, I could see them breeding more than once in a season. But the pyro babies that would hatch late would have no time to feed before having to hibernate, as winter comes on much sooner in the high elevation mountains. I am no expert on this, am just trying to apply simple logic, but can always stand to be corrected. Just in case she could double clutch I will not put her back with her mate until fall, as I don't want her to have any more clutches this year.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Bob, they can double clutch I have had L.p.knoblochi double clutch for me...When the hatchlings emerge and they don't eat for a few weeks I will put them down for the winter and usually when warmed up 6-8 weeks later they eat right away....I am sure this may happens in the wild also....I have had hatchlings hatch in August and refuse a meal until the following spring, and still have decent weight just no growth...

From my experiences, if a female has good weight after the first clutch, and you continue to feed her good she will ovulate again. Usually the second clutch is laid 30 to 45 days after the first....I have Tri-color Hognose that could and have been known to lay upwards of 5-8 clutches per year. Last year I had to dicontinue feeding for roughly 2 weeks after her 3rd clutch to stop her from cycling, at that time I turned down the heat at night also.
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Jimmy Tintle

Well, thee go my plans to reunite the trio this summer! I think one clutch is enough for Dotz. Zunchara may also be gravid, so I think I will have enough baby pyros this year.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I think one clutch is enough for Dotz

Dotz is going to cylce , develope follicles and eggs even if you don't put a male in with her. Her body will go through the same process..

Remember it is not YOU that does the breeding. The snakes do it on their own. .Whether you like it or not.

let them do what they are meant to do. You can't control them even though you think you know what is best for them.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Also....
The females do not ALWAYS retain sperm......But can.
When she does develop follicles again I would put a male with her to fertilize the eggs.....I'd rather a female try and pass fertilized eggs rather than re absorb or pass infertile ones.....

Alot of breeders that don't want their female to double clutch will not feed them heavily after laying their first clutch......But they still sometimes do......Some of those egg binding horror stories are from infertile eggs stuck in a female......

Also.....neonates hatched late in the year can hibernate just like their parents....No problem at all......why wouldn't they be able to?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Also.....neonates hatched late in the year can hibernate just like their parents....No problem at all......why wouldn't they be able to?

I meant brumate not hibernate.....lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Some of those egg binding horror stories are from infertile eggs stuck in a female......

>>John Lassiter

I'm not so sure that is accurate? Infertile eggs tend to be smaller and almost slimey sometimes. I don't know if there is data to say that there is a substanial amount of egg binding from infertile eggs. I've never had any that I know of? I'm not convinced that reabsorbing eggs will hurt the females either?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Ack! At this rate I will be knee deep in baby snakes this winter! I want her to gain all the weight back she lost during her gravid period plus extra before she sees her mate again.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Apparently that is all YOU have seen Jorge........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I just don't know what to think; I don't want my girl to be hurt by having infertile eggs but on the other hand I don't want her to go through another "pregnancy" as the last one was taxing on her, and I can only care for so many little baby snakes. What could be bad about the female reabsorbing unfertilized ovum?
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

>>I just don't know what to think; I don't want my girl to be hurt by having infertile eggs but on the other hand I don't want her to go through another "pregnancy" as the last one was taxing on her, and I can only care for so many little baby snakes. What could be bad about the female reabsorbing unfertilized ovum?
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>>Bob
>>Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
>>Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Some may get fertilized by retained sperm........how do you know they will be infertile?......just saying
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I am sure she can re absorb unfertilized ovum.....no problem.......

But their is no guarantee they will be infertile......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>I am sure she can re absorb unfertilized ovum.....no problem.......
>>
>>But their is no guarantee they will be infertile......
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>>John Lassiter

John think about what you said. If unfertile they can be absorbed with no problem. So why not take his chances? At worst he will have fertile eggs anyway, but at best, he will accomplish his goal, which is to spare the female and himself the stress of another clutch.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Some can be fertilized while others not........anyway he has hears the pesimistic and the optimistic points...............personally.......i would pair them up on the safe side.......

Then Bob you can send them to me if you didnt "want" that many neonates.......it isn't what you want it is how you react to what they do.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>Some can be fertilized while others not........anyway he has hears the pesimistic and the optimistic

I wouldn't call you a pesimist, just tunnel visioned, lol.

I think Bob has a better chance to accomplish what he is trying to acheive, if he doesn't re-introduce the male. Peace out! Gotta go play truck driver.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Yeah, I am going to not put her with her mate and hope for the best. If the other female is gravid, I will have more than enough babies. I am really good at growing things but marketing is my weak point.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Ah, well, I have plenty of mice. Its the housing that is the bugaboo. I will have to build some sort of rack for more than a dozen hatchlings. In a way it is silly to complain about this; it is like complaining because ones' refrigerator is too full! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

What could be bad about the female reabsorbing unfertilized ovum?
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>>Bob

Well I have had females absorb eggs many times and I haven't noticed any ill effects from it? I have seen snakes egg bound from trying to pass eggs! In fact I will go out on a limb and say that no egg bound snake ever was the result of absobing the eggs.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Bob,

Your thoughts and your gut reaction, to me, says what is best. I would go with that.

If you are not feeling comfortable with having her breed again, then don't. She will be fine if she doesn't.

On this forum Bob, you of course, are hearing many differing viewpoints. With that being said, I will state my opinion to you.

In this hobby, it is sad to see the agendas of cranking as many eggs out of your females as possible in the shortest amount of time. This fascination of " If it CAN happen, then it must be ok ", is often times, not the healthiest thing, whilt it is then all dressed up with lingo that SOUNDS like it is good. Some are taught this, practice this, and then, preach it to others. I am not saying that those who have given you their opinion actually all believe that, but I am just saying the agendas are out there. While all of the while, the female is so wore out from doing ALL of the WORK. She then may experience the possibility of not living out her full potentional of years. In other words, breeding females, and constantly double and triple clutching, does wear them out quicker. It is that simple. Remember, quality is always better than quantity and the fastest way possible.

This blanket statement of, " oh...if I don't have my female breed again, she may end up having infertiles and go eggbound, " gets taxing and tiring both hearing and reading. She may lay infertiles, and she may not. I personally feel that she most likely will not, and I personally have NOT seen it happen way more than I have seen it, or even have heard about it all throughout the years from all of the breeders I know. With them it was always well known that eggbound females were either way too young at times, obese, not given proper conditions, or all of the above. Back when I bred kings and milks, I simply had them lay one clutch of eggs per year, fed them well afterword, and they did great, without being bred again. Like I said, if you do not want her to breed again, due to how stressful it ACTUALLY is for the female snakes to do all of the work, as you are witnessing, then simply do not feel compelled to. She will be fine. If she ends up laying other eggs without being introduced to a male again, so be it. Just feed her well now, so she can regain all of her strength and weight. That is your biggest concern now, and it is very nice to see your love and concern for her as well. It should always be like that.

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Genesis 1:1

Back when I bred kings and milks, I simply had them lay one clutch of eggs per year, fed them well afterword, and they did great, without being bred again.

Great insight and information for Bob to make his decision....But I don't agree with what you stated above.......

YOU "had them lay only one clutch".......The only way YOU can control this is to NOT give them enough caloric intake after a clutch is laid for her to ovulate again....IMHO.

Like I stated earlier in this thread....Some breeders think double clutching is a bad thing so they avoid this by not feeding ALOT after a clutch is laid......Sure they feed enough but not ALOT.

Bob feeds alot....That female will ovulate again....If she retained sperm some, none or all will be fertile.....

It is truly speculation as stated here in this thread as well.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

" The only way YOU can control this is to NOT give them enough caloric intake after a clutch is laid for her to ovulate again....IMHO. "

Agreed, but I DID feed them well, meaning A LOT! And in doing so, never laid infertiles, never laid anything again except one time, a small clutch of eggs where some even hatched. But in doing so, after I fed them very well after they laid, never, EVER, had any retain any eggs.
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Genesis 1:1

Very cool to hear what other have experienced.....I think we all (including me) should take what others have experienced and weigh all the options, differences and details.........

Billy...You going to Daytona this year?
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I am not sure about Daytona. I have gone to all of them, but this year, due to job details, I am not sure. I hope so!!
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Genesis 1:1

>>I am not sure about Daytona. I have gone to all of them, but this year, due to job details, I am not sure. I hope so!!

I hope to see you there again.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Same here!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks, DISCERN, for seconding my emotions on this topic. Dotz did great with her very first clutch, and will not be bred again this year. As it is, she required a bit of nursing after her laying of eggs. She had got very tired and needed to be rehydrated in a warm water bath, then she ate a big gob of fresh live pinks. Had I not taken her out of the nest the day after egg laying and cared for her she may have died. She had water and moist sphagnum nest throughout her gravitity but the ordeal of laying seemed to tax her strength to the point she was not able to go to the water bowl on her own. She is fine now, eating every few days all she wants and regaining weight and strength. I just can't imagine she could do this clutch thing again this year.

One important fact I have learned with this thread and everyone's opinions of double clutching is that if one reunites the male and the female early in the season the possibility of double clutching is amplified. So I will not be putting my trio back together until fall, in preparation for brumation.

I am most grateful for everyone's input!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

>>I'm not so sure that is accurate? Infertile eggs tend to be smaller and almost slimey sometimes. I don't know if there is data to say that there is a substanial amount of egg binding from infertile eggs. I've never had any that I know of? I'm not convinced that reabsorbing eggs will hurt the females either?

Jorge,
You've never had a female start laying infertile eggs prior to her pls then get egg bound?......I have
I've also had a female pass a few slugs early then fertiles later........
Then I've seen females lay perfect clutches........

So......i would have to say that with my experiences have been that females that have laid slugs have a higher risk of getting egg bound.......

All of the palpitated eggs I've seen were ALL slugs........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>All of the palpitated eggs I've seen were ALL slugs........
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>>John Lassiter

Is it possible that the eggs turned bad after being in the female too long, and then someone finally palpitating them out? Who knows what the egg would look like if it had come out on time?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>>>All of the palpitated eggs I've seen were ALL slugs........
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>>>>John Lassiter
>>
>>
>>Is it possible that the eggs turned bad after being in the female too long, and then someone finally palpitating them out? Who knows what the egg would look like if it had come out on time?
>>-----

Maybe.....but that is speculation as well.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

too much speculation.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Yep......
So....my opinion of "on the safe side" is to pair a male with her if she ovulated again........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Actually your only adding many many assumptions. Most of which are not acurate at all.

Like harst winters. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm On our site, we find snakes active year a round, every month. Its at 6000 ft.

With the montane rattlesnakes, we find gravid females out and active every month of the year. In fact, far more active in winter then in our harsh arse summer. Until the rains.

The period from mid may to mid july has the least amount of surface activity. Which is what you folks call active. The reality is they are active in the ground year around as well.

I late dec, I narrated a day in the field on another forum. That day, had a high of 42F air temp. Which is pretty much meaningless.

The hottest surface temps were 128F, The areas the snakes were active in, had surface temps between 75 and 100F, with the crawling snakes using the cooler areas. AGain a normal winters day.

Of course if it snows that day, and would not come up. And there was snow on the ground that day. But it was sunny which is very normal in our "harsh" winters. There are pyros on are study site.

Any way, what I am doing is offering you a report, of what was seen in the field.

A report, whats required in the field is to NOT make assumptions and do not prejudice data. That is, do not think you know anything. Thats a hard lesson to learn. And it does not come easily.

The truth is, your making assumptions based on what you think about them in boxes and applying it to what you think occurs in nature. Which makes your thoughts both assumptions and prejudiced. No offense.

As you already should know, I work from the field to captivity, not visa versa.

The thing about your incubating/nesting temps is, who cares if they do that in nature if IT WORKS WELL FOR YOU.

If it doesn't work well, then use what they naturally do as a guide.

What I make comments to here is when someone has a problem. For instance a surpressed immune system. Or nesting problems that can easily be avoided.

or even social problems where folks cannot keep adult kingsnakes in pairs or groups. These things can all be overcome by understanding what the animals do.

For instance I was at the local feed store and they had a problem male rabbit. Then a rabbit breeder came in and said. If you raise males together, they do not fight. But if you add a female, you could have problems. Or once you seperate them, then reintroduce them you may have problems. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm yup, exactly like reptiles. I laughed.

FR, thanks for your enlightening information on Arizona habitats and montane snakes' habits. Having only driven through Arizona once, and that was through the desert, I have really only my imagination to go by in picturing what Arizona is like. The comment about the pyros having communal nests is also most intriguing! Facts trump assumptions every time! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Wow, Arizona is so much more than desert. Where Frank lives and thereabouts is one of the most beautiful places I have ever seen. I didn't see any pyros or green rats, but almost everything I did find was a lifer, I will be back!
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Todd Hughes