Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello all,
I followed with great interest the thread on egg retention and what to do ONCE it happens, and also what different people think on how to avoid it.

Since many of the species we work with in my neck of the woods are different, but the problems are similar, I would like to share some thoughts and experiences.

Egg retention due to lack of a good laying spot: While this seems to make sense, I have almost never seen wc gravid females retain if kept in unsuitable conditions.(I am speaking of Liophis, Philodryas and Clelia species mainly) They will lay in the water bowl, they will scatter the eggs around, but in 35 years I saw very few cases of egg retention, including snakes kept by me, other people and rural zoos (where many snakes are brought in spring).
So whatever causes retention is more common in captive snakes, be it lack of exercise, diet (calcium metabolism included),dehydration or whatever.

I did notice a drop of the egg retention rate when increasing the calcium intake of the females.This was done injecting calcium, Vitamin D3 and vitamin b12 into the feeder mice once every few weeks.

Ovocentesis in cb snakes: although I dont have statistics, I do think (because I have seen it happen) that CAPTIVE BORN snakes bred at a larger size have better chances of not retaining eggs.
Wild snakes do well even if small.

Egg palpation: this is almost always unsuccessful, even if it looks good at first. The oviduct is a very thin membrane and pushing an egg ALONG the oviduct is difficult, many people end up pushing BOTH EGG AND OVIDUCT out of the cloaca.
Chances look better if one egg is right near the cloaca.

Ovocentesis: I have performed it dozens of times, both for my snakes and for people who bring me theirs to help.
Of course prevention is better, but once it happens, go ahead and save the snake! I use 10cc syringes.
A medium to alrge egg like a Clelia or honduran may be larger than that volume. The idea is to shrink the egg, then the snake will hopefully pass it in 1-2 days.

I try to have BOTH hands free to hold the syringe.Someone else has to take care of the snake.
When the plunger is pulled out, the vacuum tends to pull it back into the syringe. If some yolk is already in it, and if the snake moves, you might end injecting it back into the body, with potentially very bad consequences.
So one hand holds the syringe with the palm upwared and knuckles resting on a firm surface, while the other (your stronger hand) pulls the plunger.

I am just trying to share information the way I see it.
Avoidance of a problem is always the best course.
But I see nothing wrong with knowing what to do when bad things happen.

David

Good post!....

Yes, I tend to agree with a whole lot of what you said there.

"many people end up pushing BOTH EGG AND OVIDUCT out of the cloaca

Boy!, I hear THAT!. I have seen the outcomes of quite a few people that attempt to palpate eggs out over the years, then ask......"hey!, what's this thin plastic-looking tube of skin that came out with the egg?"...............ARRGH!!..

Like you mentioned, the oviduct is a very thin, delicate membrane that shouldn't be messed with. If the egg didn't slip through it on it's own initially when the female was pushing, the last thing that should be done is to attempt to mash it out manually by some clumsy oaf in my opinion......ESPECIALLY the further up the egg is from the vent!

Sometimes a very QUALIFIED reptile vet can do this assisted with irrigation if it isn't very far up, but other than that, I don't think it is a good idea at all. Giving the female time on her own to do it after she has regained some more strength over time, or aspirating it as a last resort is probably much safer for the female.

Luckily, I have never had to deal with egg-binding personally(knock on wood), but giving the egg(s) time to be passed naturally, or if not, aspiration seems far better than palpating to me any day of the week. You just wouldn't be able to determine if the oviduct was being forced out until it was too late the way I see it.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

my website -Serpentine Specialties

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Thanks David. Enjoyed your presentation and observations.

--Dennis

Thanks to all!
I would like to add that if a snake is egg bound in her first pregnancy,and if she retains eggs for good, she may still have one working oviduct and be able to breed.

This might be evidence (or at least indicative of) that younger animals sometimes are more prone to egg binding,

David

I've personally never had a young snake get egg bound.....Only older snakes........
It seems younger snakes breed better and as they age they will peak out then go downhill from there.......

I had a calking that used to lay 10 to 12 eggs her first few years of breeding......As she aged her egg counts declined to 8, then 6 until she reached the age of 10 or so.....then she started to throw only about 4 or 5 eggs.....she passed at 14 years of age....Not to over breeding, but rather over heating.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I've personally never had a young snake get egg bound.....Only older snakes........
It seems younger snakes breed better and as they age they will peak out then go downhill from there.......

I had a calking that used to lay 10 to 12 eggs her first few years of breeding......As she aged her egg counts declined to 8, then 6 until she reached the age of 10 or so.....then she started to throw only about 4 or 5 eggs.....she passed at 14 years of age....Not to over breeding, but rather over heating....."

Thats interesting, I guess we should somehow collate all our info and try to find a trend.

According to my experience,I would have thought that young snakes are especially prone to egg retention.

Interesting story with your calking.
In my experience, old snakes tend to lay more bad eggs than good ones.

Again, very difficult to generalize from just one's own experience.

David

.......in the milk forum it was said once that female milks such as reds, will get better with age, and peak out around 10 years old , laying bigger eggs and bigger clutches...hmmmm...I know I have bred corns into their teens , and have had corns at 23 and 24 years old....but they were huge males bought around 1982 -ish...

.....again....with kings like Californias...the ones I used to own would feel 'mooshy", limp, and just plain weak...too much high fat food and too little exercise....their cages were big enough ,but they just didn't do anything all day....(sounds like humans).......I think alot of us just feed too much....???

....good luck all....
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........JY

Great Information David.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

N/P

while aspirating unlaid ovum,,,I am always alone...I use the one hand for snake, one hand for syringe and pull the plunger, with my teeth,....as you fill the syringe or are finished and cannot get anymore FROM the egg into syringe...I pull away with both hands and mouth in oposite directions at the same time...over the years it just happens fast and I don't much think about it till I try and write it out...
aspiration works if done quickly after oviposition is finished by female and the retained ovum and not going to move, and are too far up into body to just leave them,,,I aspirate the first egg(closest to the vent) and then make her drink, then place in her box along with egg box....raising temps might help here also...but not too much...like I do maybe 2 or 4 degrees...(2 shelf rows in rack)...

.....yes...we all agree...never just push an egg out unless it is directly at the vent....

..good luck...and I believe lack of excercise to be the number one cause......
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........JY

Interesting information, and now that you say this, I agree that teeth is the only way to pull out the plunger,
If the eggs are too high ( and are the only oens left) do you just leave them?
I prefer to aspirate and even if they are not laid, at least I guesss they wont bother the female so much.

And yes, exercise is the keyword to me, too. I once thought that live prey might be a good exercise but not so sure its enough.

David

teeth.....you do it but didn't want to say it...hmmmm...LOL...I've used my mouth/teeth to pull plunger for 20 years now....not often, but when needed....

eggs way way up in body cavity....yes...I would just aspirate then leave them...usually they will work their way down, albeit slower than I like....and from time to time , yes...the female will die...I have had a female die in 3 days...wow...and I have had them dumping duds for weeks (?) while eating or while not eating...some females will not eat, even with one retained ovum...odd.....

I took a snake (L. t. stuarti ) large adult female...one stuck egg,,,it grew and grew and was stuck...and it was right at the vent...I told the doc to cut her open on the side and remove it...he was all more than happy to show me how to just pop it out...even after I told him NOT TO...it would not come out...and to cut her....NOOOO...he pushed till it came out, while pulling on it with hemostats...and all the while she went into deep shock........she died that night and didn't need the syringes of baytril he sent home with me....last time I asked a vet for help....(they are just good for meds)..(.my opinion...thanxxx)

....so yes...all situations are different...and all people react differently....some people will run to a vet for a little minor scratch,on a $10 cornsnake,, while others would treat $5000 snakes themselves....

.....good luck all......and bigger cages, less food....
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........JY

Hey JY,
I actually never did it, but like the idea especially when I dont have anyone to help me, thanks!LOL

And I fully agree with the last, too much food is not very good, I had 2 Philodryas baroni conceive huge clutches and die retaining them, one was almost 30 eggs, I would rather have a skinny one drop 8

David

There is no one single thing that causes dystocia. The most common things implicated in egg binding include dehydration, inappropriate laying site, lack of exercise, poor nutritional status (obesity, low calcium/D3 status. etc). You can argue as much as you want about your personal favorite cause, but almost every case will have a combination of those causes.

I have to ask, for those of you with so much experience with this... why? Unless you work in a vet clinic or are performing this service for everyone in town, you should not be having so many dystocias as they are almost always preventable.

How to NEVER see a dystocia in your collection 101:
1) Have well hydrated animals. Provide a humidity gradient and a water bowl. Don't pull the water bowl! She won't lay in it, but if you are paranoid just give her a smaller bowl.
2) Give her a DARK, DEEP, QUIET, HUMID place to lay her eggs. Feel free to get creative but don't omit any of those 4 things.
3) Keep records of shedding and palpate all of your females in spring time on a regular basis. This way you are not surprised by a clutch.
4) Feed your snakes high quality rodents (and preferably other prey like chicks too) that have not been frozen for months, not years.

OK so lets say your "friend" has a dystocia and you want to help deal with it. The first step should be to wait and leave her alone, in her nest box. (Never too late to fix any of the scenarios above) All eggs should be passed within 24 hours, I would not do anything at all until 24 hours go by without any egg movement. The next step would be to try a series of calcium injections which you can hopefully get a vet to prescribe and give to your snake at home, without bringing her anywhere yet. It is cheap, and has a good chance of working. You can try oxytosin too. It is also cheap and won't do any harm, but it has never proven to be very effective in snakes. You should also soak her for a few minutes to let her rehydrate...

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After about 24 hours of medical management. You should bring the snake to a vet.

Palpation of an awake snake is almost never successful. But if you sedate the snake it works fairly often.

ONLY after the above options have been exhausted should you attempt ovocentesis. It is not without risk, and it does not have a great success rate. None of the above options are very expensive, and progressing in a stepwise manner is the most likely way to have a good outcome for the snake. Don't just jump to ovocentesis! If you do perform ovocentesis, I would put the snake on antibiotics. By the time she is at this point there is a good chance of infection of the oviduct, and an even better chance of some of the egg contents leaking, which is a great nidus for an infection.

In the event that none of these things work, their are a wide variety of options from laparoscopy to surgery depending on how cost etc.

While I wouldn't recommend it, you can also just leave it alone and see what happens. Many snakes never get ill and pass eggs days or weeks later. If she does start to get sick though, you may be past the point of being able to fix it.

Cheers