Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have female milk phase thayeri king snake and a male sinaloan milk snake. Right now both are babies. I was wondering if the 2 could breed together when of age and size? I am new to all of this and was wondering if it is possible, and what the babies would be? I was told at a reptile show it can be done but I wonder what you all think.

LOL....good morning sir. And welcome to the wonderful world of captive breeding. I'm sure unbeknownst to you, you have just began to stir one of THE largest pots of conflict & heated debate this forum has ever known. *chills down the spine*

Sure it is possible, but why in the world wouldja want to do it? These are two very distinct snakes coming from two separate species/ssp that are insanely beautiful in their own right, which of course has taken eons to develop through a multitude of natural/biological factors.

Some groups think there isn't a darn thing wrong with it, while others are vehemently against it. No one is telling you not to, but there are a number of reasons why many feel you shouldn't.

" alt="Image">
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

What you would get is.....trash.
-----
Greg Jackson

...it flies and eats grass....I need a crowgoat....goatcrow....ravenoats...?...

....I still like that pic....

,...want hybrids?....just buy them...classifieds...and be fast...the good stuff sells quickly....

...
-----
........JY

That picture is awesome!
Gerard

>>I have female milk phase thayeri king snake and a male sinaloan milk snake. Right now both are babies. I was wondering if the 2 could breed together when of age and size? I am new to all of this and was wondering if it is possible, and what the babies would be? I was told at a reptile show it can be done but I wonder what you all think.

It is certainly possible but why would you?
Both are native to Mexico. We cannot legally import animals from Mexico anymore so we are delt with the lines that came into our hobby years ago......so why taint them and muddy them up?

If I were you (and I know I am not) I would invest in a male Thayeri for the female you have and a female Sinaloan milk snake for the male you have and breed them pure.

But.....it is up to you....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Steve O,

You're going to get a lot of different answers to this, most of them opposed, and for a reason. Many people are purists and don't want the gene pool muddied. They work at the subspecies level and even locality level. On the other hand, some people like to mix and match everything just to see what happens.

I personally don't get into this debate as I can see both sides' arguments have very valid points. The only things I would suggest are:
1. Think long and hard about the ramifications of creating hybrids and/or integrades.
2. Always represent the animals as EXACTLY what they are (what animals were crossed).
3. Never, ever release any of them into the wild. Ever.
4. Check out the Hybrid section of these forums to learn more and speak with other hybrid enthusiasts.

Maybe check out just how much variation there is in "pure" thayeri. These are amazing snakes in their own right and have wonderful diversity, even among individuals hatched from the same clutch.
-----
---
www.austinreptileshows.com
www.snakerack.info
www.mikefoux.com

Hondurans
Pueblans
Corns
Grey-banded King
California Kings
Speckled Kings (Calcasieu Parish locality)
Brooksi
Goini/Brooksi Crosses
San Diego gophers
Texas Rat
Jungle Carpet Python
Ball Python
BCI
Sulcata
Leopard Geckos
Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

A thing to consider is the welfare of the potential offspring. Hybrids are in general not as desirable as pures. Just because something can be done doesn't make it a good idea.
-----
Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

"Just because something can be done doesn't make it a good idea"

Nothing more needs to be added there.

Any person is also physically capable of taking a malet and purposely hitting themselves in the head with it too. Is it a good idea??...........hmmmmm..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I often wonder why you guys tell such weird storie. The actual fact is, hybrid sell better and for more money, then a normal thayeri or normal milksnake.

When you say pure to cover, het this, or possible double het that. Those are no more pure then a mule. Yet they too are worth more money, then normals.

And about mucking up whats here, there have been hybrids in the trade for almost 40 years. Dudes, do what you like and let others do what they like, or think they like. hahahahahahaha

So your point would be to condone producing whatever puts a couple more bucks in your pocket,...right?............gotcha!

Please get off of the "pure" thing too. Everyone here knows full-well that snakes or any other animals are not "pure" like a virgin laboratory chemical compound is. But they are an authentic meristic phenotype. I don't see a need to go around in circles with this though. I can plainly see that it doesn't matter to alot of folks what their crossed hodge-podge snakes later get misrepresented as down the road. This has always been my point. It's for future thought, not about what kind of unrelated cross I can dream up to drop a few bucks in my pocket.

BTW,....exactly who would pay more for what cross?, you mean the people that only think about the aesthetic colors and patterns, but care nothing at all about any of the separate types that were used to create the crossed animal?. Or care about what it might be bred with later when they are sold, very likely misrepresented and misidentified?

Sort of hard to misrepresent an Outer Banks king, isn't it?. It's pretty doubtful some shmuck threw in a "puebla-corn" in a tub to create these anyway..LOL!

Something like a genuine Outer Banks kingsnake will ALWAYS be a thousand times more revered to me than say an Eastern king x floridana x Cal. king x "goobers and raisinettes", het for "atomic fussion purple mushroom cloud" any day of the week.

Sure, I ain't gonna stop anyone from crossing those so-called "cool" snakes, but if a few people are debating it and are basically undecided about it, and read some of what is said and decide against doing it, then all is good in my opinion. That is also what Terry Dunham was trying to get across too..

cheers, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>I have female milk phase thayeri king snake and a male sinaloan milk snake. Right now both are babies. I was wondering if the 2 could breed together when of age and size? I am new to all of this and was wondering if it is possible, and what the babies would be? I was told at a reptile show it can be done but I wonder what you all think.

Please don't do it, Steve. Study your two different animals closely and appreciate their natural beauty. Imagine the times when herpetologists have lifted a rock or walked through a field and seen snakes exactly like yours in their wild, natural habitat. Over time, I think--and hope--your recognition of their differences will grow, you'll respect their individual qualities, and decide not to muddle that by mixing them into something that's neither. Then you can find suitable matches for them and get the good feeling that comes from perpetuating something that developed in nature over eons. Then the babies you produce--like the ones you own now--will be direct links to animals in the wild.

Put another way: Are you glad you know the exact identity of your two snakes? Would it disappoint you to find out one or both of them is really a mix, and not the snake you believe it to be? That someone else may show you a genuine sinaloan, and you'd have to say, "well, mine's a mix, and not all of its siblings might have looked like this, and its babies may not look like this even if it were bred to a genuine sinaloan, but..." If it would bother you to have to explain that whenever you show your snakes, or to have someone reject yours as a mate for their sinaloan because yours is a mix, that's a clue to the fact that you don't really want to cross yours now. Every time someone hybridizes a pair of snakes they create mish-moshes ALL of whose progeny will be forever separated from the special and genuine character of the parents. You'll get different opinions here. I hope you'll consider this one.

My gosh!!

That's one of the very best explanations I have ever read Terry!

Your scenarios are EXACTLY what would transpire.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Terry were you at any point in time like a professional bedtime story teller?

LOL....that was said so gracefully and was so poignant.....had I not had to rush out for work I would've done the same. Then again, probably not. Ahahahaaa! But seriously, that was awesome Terry. I think that should be placed atop ever forum header on KS.
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Really, that is the entire argument for me. Very well said.

Thanks.

Will

I agree. Very well said.

As a hobbyist that enjoys snakes in their natural form, I spend a lot of time field herping, and have put a lot of effort into collecting my own locality breeding stock. Most of my snakes were either collected by me, or descend from snakes collected by me. I do this to satisfy my own interests, to make myself happy.

At the same time I don't see how my interests in collecting and breeding locality snakes are really any more valid than someone else's interests in engineering his own snakes through crossbreeding, other than the fact that a very vocal portion of this hobby stigmatizes hybridization. With hybrids you can create something that has never before existed. You can take two animals that have qualities you find desirable, and cross them in hopes of creating something that is the best of both worlds. This is similar to what has been done with domesticated plants and animals for centuries. If you crossed an Everglades Rat Snake to a Honduran Milk Snake, you could end up with an attractive tricolor that climbs, and is content to sit out in the open on branches in its enclosure.

Snakes pure and hybrid alike get mislabeled all the time. I purchased a baby gray rat snake when I was 14... it grew up to be a yellow rat snake. I bought a group of Sinaloans when I was 16, but half of them ended up being Pueblans. I constantly see misidentified snakes on the classifieds and at reptile shows: Speckleds labeled as Florida kings, desert kings labeled as eastern kings, albinos labeled as hypo, etc. I have no doubt these are all mislabeled out of ignorance. It seems that to keep ahead as a buyer you have to know more than the sellers. In another post you mentioned that you purchased an anery Honduran that ended up being a different subspecies, and there were the albino eastern kings that were suspected of carrying some nigra influence. Neither of these were man made crosses. We are all responsible for the integrity of our own breeding colonies.

Either that or i will save it and everytime a thread like this appears uit needs to be reposted.

Amen to everything you wrote!!!!!

I hope everyone reads everything over and the ending as well;;;
"We are all responsible for the integrity of our own breeding colonies"

"As a hobbyist that enjoys snakes in their natural form, I spend a lot of time field herping, and have put a lot of effort into collecting my own locality breeding stock. Most of my snakes were either collected by me, or descend from snakes collected by me. I do this to satisfy my own interests, to make myself happy.

Snakes pure and hybrid alike get mislabeled all the time. I purchased a baby gray rat snake when I was 14... it grew up to be a yellow rat snake. I bought a group of Sinaloans when I was 16, but half of them ended up being Pueblans. I constantly see misidentified snakes on the classifieds and at reptile shows: Speckleds labeled as Florida kings, desert kings labeled as eastern kings, albinos labeled as hypo, etc. I have no doubt these are all mislabeled out of ignorance. It seems that to keep ahead as a buyer you have to know more than the sellers. In another post you mentioned that you purchased an anery Honduran that ended up being a different subspecies, and there were the albino eastern kings that were suspected of carrying some nigra influence. Neither of these were man made crosses. We are all responsible for the integrity of our own breeding colonies."

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

great post foxturtle!
imho where the puritans go wrong is slandering/labeling someone as a hybridizer therefore they cannot be trusted or are dishonest. its pathetic, sad, ugly, and small.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

If we can get him t make it a stand alone post, i will be happy to sticky it, however I am not stickying it from this bazillion post thread, which I must say, I am impressed there has been very little bloodshed.
-----
Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

"It seems that to keep ahead as a buyer you have to know more than the sellers."

Excellent post! Not a single point of disagreement.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>I have female milk phase thayeri king snake and a male sinaloan milk snake. Right now both are babies. I was wondering if the 2 could breed together when of age and size? I am new to all of this and was wondering if it is possible, and what the babies would be? I was told at a reptile show it can be done but I wonder what you all think.

Yes they can breed. I haven't done Sinaloan x Thayeri but I have done Thayeri X Nelsoni and imo they are far more beautiful looking than the two species by themselves. Especially the albinos. You should come on over to the hybrid forum for a more civil discussion.

-----
www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Very pretty for a trash snake.....
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

hahahaha!!!!!!! Very pretty, indeed. Very less than desireable for any sort of breeding purpose due to it's twisted genotype, indeed.

Yeah, they polished a turd on "Myth Busters" a while back too..

~Doug

-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>Yeah, they polished a turd on "Myth Busters" a while back too..
>>
>>
>>
>> ~Doug

Is that really a TURD!!!?
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

"Is that really a TURD!!!?"

Yes, that snake is definitely a turd!

And the photo I posted is Adam (of Myth Busters) holding one he polished himself on TV. Jamie did one too that was even shinier as I recall..LOL!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Not so fast you guys, if that thing's a true turd, maybe we all need to reconsider this whole hybrid thing. That is the nicest, fanciest, most valuable and desirable turd I've ever seen in my whole life. Where can I get one?

I'm sure Adam from Myth Busters(and many others in this hobby ) could polish one up for ya!..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

what actual type of turd is the round ball that is polished?...
....

I like the hybrid also.....sorry....

...
-----
........JY

"what actual type of turd is the round ball that is polished?"

They got a bunch of different crap from a local zoo, and mixed it all together(again, similar to a man-made hybrid), then proceded to polish it by hand after it hardened. It gradually got shinier and shinier..LOL!

The lion crap really stunk bad I remember them saying..LMAO!!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Sounds like a DUNGBEETLE to ME!!!! Ohhhhhh Douggy!!!!!!!!!
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

That is as funny as the Crowgoat.
Gerard

man thats sweeeeeet looking. the haters are just small short people with no apprecieation or life whatsoever.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

whether their answer was pro or con manage to answer without the smallest of insults for those with the opposing view... would it have been that difficult to follow suit?

.
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

hahahahahaha!!!!!!!

>>man thats sweeeeeet looking. the haters are just small short people with no apprecieation or life whatsoever.

hey, thomas, I'm a six-footer. What exactly are you calling short?

More seriously, if you look at the posts here there's NOT ONE that argues hybrids can't be beautiful. That's not the point, and no one here has tried to make it. The responses address other issues of concern, and I hope the newbies consider those arguments and not be led astray by those who would suggest "well, if they're pretty (or 'sweeeeeet looking') that settles it."

Don't do it man! And here's why:

"Please don't do it, Steve. Study your two different animals closely and appreciate their natural beauty. Imagine the times when herpetologists have lifted a rock or walked through a field and seen snakes exactly like yours in their wild, natural habitat. Over time, I think--and hope--your recognition of their differences will grow, you'll respect their individual qualities, and decide not to muddle that by mixing them into something that's neither. Then you can find suitable matches for them and get the good feeling that comes from perpetuating something that developed in nature over eons. Then the babies you produce--like the ones you own now--will be direct links to animals in the wild.

Put another way: Are you glad you know the exact identity of your two snakes? Would it disappoint you to find out one or both of them is really a mix, and not the snake you believe it to be? That someone else may show you a genuine sinaloan, and you'd have to say, "well, mine's a mix, and not all of its siblings might have looked like this, and its babies may not look like this even if it were bred to a genuine sinaloan, but..." If it would bother you to have to explain that whenever you show your snakes, or to have someone reject yours as a mate for their sinaloan because yours is a mix, that's a clue to the fact that you don't really want to cross yours now. Every time someone hybridizes a pair of snakes they create mish-moshes ALL of whose progeny will be forever separated from the special and genuine character of the parents. You'll get different opinions here. I hope you'll consider this one."

- rtdunham, Tue May 17 10:50:22 2011

Although I wish I could take credit for this brilliant, and articulate explanation, I cannot. It would be wrong for me to do such a thing, much like like breeding sinaloans and thayeri together, and I just won't do that. I'm a man of honor and integrity.......LOL

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

breed what you want captive born animals are DEAD to nature anyway, have fun
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

... or does anyone think that you should know how to spell "kingsnake" before trying to breed hybrids.

Yeah, I see so many people now days that want to breed snakes, and they don't even know the FIRST thing about them at all!.....I mean NOTHING about them whatsoever, not even what they eat, or anything.

This is what I call the "monkey see, monkey do" mentality that is due to today's internet capabilities. Everyone gets on the internet and clicks up bright, flashy colors at will by the thousands, then decides..."HEY!, I want to make some "cool" stuff too, but doesn't want to even know the first thing about the animals they are contemplating to breed.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thank you all for the great opinions. I was just wanting to know what people though about it an I see were you are all coming from. Yes I know how to spell kingsnake just my iPad separates it to 2 words. I do see that pure is better. I would hate to get something and find out later it's not what it should be. Thanks again.

Sorry to open a can of worms.

No need for any apology whatsoever. There are varying opinions, and those that have stronger opinions for "purity" (and yes I use that term loosely as that is yet another much-debated topic)I view as just extremely passionate about "natural" processes & trying to responsibly keep what we have under captive conditions as specific as possible (save for the un-natural selective breeding process for better pattern/colors/etc).

As for the ones that could care less about all that and just "dig a [bleep]in' lookin' snake", well, it is what it is quite frankly and the mentality I still can not seem to comprehend. But there is that camp as well and some just won't change their viewpoint & simply look at a snake (& presumably any animal for that matter) solely from an aesthetic perspective and nothing more.

My strong opinion is across the board, and although I am not one of the herp academics that tries to "reign supreme" and be a know-it-all-which-means-my-words-are-the-rule type, I have to piggy-back on what Terry Dunham said most wonderfully before. It's just about the respect for WHAT THEY ARE, and not what they could be mixed and made into.
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Hey man don't feel bad for asking the question...it was a question. Obviously most do not agree with the idea, and for good reason. But at the end of the day, you will be the one dealing with some baby snakes that, quite possibly, will not not command any higher price than either of the two parents, but more likely than not, even less. And you'll also have all that extra explaining to do when and if you do try to sell them.

As FR and a few others have mentioned, hybrids have been, and will continue to be, around and produced for years. Since some of them (for instance the Pastel king) are very exceptional indeed, I fully understand the logic behind breeding them. Key word: "LOGIC". I have reason to believe the breeders of these "exceptional" hybrids put some thought and consideration into these pairings prior to, and not on a whim. Many hybrids do not meet this "expectation" and subsequently fall by the wayside. The breeder is subsequently left with some babies that no one really wants. Unfortunately for the babies. Then you WILL see these babies being given away for less than $20...substantially less than a individual normal thayeri or sinaloan.

On the other hand, maybe you'll produce some real screamers that sell out fast and you'll decide to continue the same project again. Seems like a gamble to me though. If you're gonna do something like that, don't just throw two different snakes together for the sake of pairing up two opposite genders that you just happened to have. Put some thought into it and produce something like a pastel (thayeri x ruthveni) or like that alb thayeri x nelsoni Mezoic posted. That thing kicks alot of ass.

Good luck!

Please don't ADD to it Oprah. LOL. You're killin' me over here.
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I was just getting started...and please don't call me Oprah. LOL!

Surely you must be kidding about being pro-hybrid....and I'll stop calling you Shirley.....hehehehe....
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

No, I don't really like hybrids, but I do speak jive.

LOL.....nicely done!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qa1rjCZxtxo
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

LOL...I thought of that very same clip as soon as he said he spoke Jive......LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

" I would hate to get something and find out later it's not what it should be. "

And that is what will always happen. Very sad. The unfruitful and wasted time of hybrization always results in that. Sadly, many who are so taken ahold of performing biological perversion do not give their fellow human being a thought when it comes to this subject. Then, the tragic thing happens when someone who paid good money for something they thought they were getting turns out it is NOT what they thought. It is that simple.

Good question, and nothing wrong with asking it.

-----
Genesis 1:1

I do see that pure is better

Sorry for all the negativity in this forum.

But I had to say a comment on "pure is better". Simply stated it is not! At least not in the context you or people may think. Once you put a snake in a box and breed for generations there is nothing pure about it.

Most of the time kings (or milks) come from different geographical areas. Some milks even have nefarious backgrounds. So what youy are getting (or think you have) is not really pure to start with.

Take for example calif kings which come from all over calif. Also Hondurans in the market today have ployzona and other stuff in them. There backrounds are very suspect.

So basically what makes you happy and/or want to beleive is what is important. But i do agree with FR. Hybrids definetly sell faster and for MORE $ than pure common kings and milks.

Otherwise if you want pure. Then go catch some yourself. But then if you breed them make sure they were found near each other. Crossing a line such as a hil/mountain, road, river /creek etc...as well as different life-zones, make a huge difference as to what is supposed to be natural. And even then YOU are selecting the best "lookers" to eah other and that is also not natural.

-----
www.Bluerosy.com

I have to disagree with you buddy.......
I much rather have a locality animal than a hybrid....I will pay more for a locality animal than a hybrid....and I know many that will too......

Most of the hybrid buyers are the newbs that think a cool looking snake is better than a normal snake.....you know.....kinda like the Python and Boa folks that just have them because they are python and boas and they think that is cool........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I have to disagree with you as well. There is a lot more to learn from advance hybrid breeding than normal regualr blah blah species. Hybrids make for a different snake out of each egg "IF" you breed second gen. Also they sell faster than hotcakes because they are an impluse buy.

I know. I bred them for years and got oiut. Never should have as it was a mistake.

I say, do what you love. There are more to snakes than just breeding on type or spp. Why bother making distictions..
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

The only point I am trying to make is that I would pay $700 for a nice Ultra Granite Mex Mex or Super Striped Ruthveni and would never pay that much on a Hybrid Mexicana......NEVER.....

And I know MANY folks that agree with me......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

The only point I am trying to make is that I would pay $700 for a nice Ultra Granite Mex Mex or Super Striped Ruthveni and would never pay that much on a Hybrid Mexicana......NEVER.....

Yeah a few would agree with you ON THIS forum. But I have sold some pretty high dollar "grail" hybrids for some big cash.

Don't be fooled by the peope on this forum. Cash talks and everything else walks. Besides. Those $700. colubrids will be down to $150. in a couple years. With hybrids they just keep going as one intelligently breeds combos together. With new recessive traits AND DIFFERENT SPECIES, the skies the limit every season.

JUST THINK ABOUT IT!
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

>>The only point I am trying to make is that I would pay $700 for a nice Ultra Granite Mex Mex or Super Striped Ruthveni and would never pay that much on a Hybrid Mexicana......NEVER.....
>>
>>Yeah a few would agree with you ON THIS forum. But I have sold some pretty high dollar "grail" hybrids for some big cash.
>>
>>
>>Don't be fooled by the peope on this forum. Cash talks and everything else walks. Besides. Those $700. colubrids will be down to $150. in a couple years. With hybrids they just keep going as one intelligently breeds combos together. With new recessive traits AND DIFFERENT SPECIES, the skies the limit every season.
>>
>>JUST THINK ABOUT IT!

I just don't like the "awe factor" market for them.....
Kinda like the folks that think it is "cool" to have Burms, African Rocks and Anacondas.......

I do know what you've done with the hybrids in time you worked with them......and I've seen MANY myself......The only problem I've encountered time and time and time again is misrepresentation.....I dislike liars, especially when it comes to animals.......

I argue the fact that "looks" aren't everything when defending purity then I also argue the opposite when the "new" taxonomists are trying to reclassify the animals I work with based on clades are nuclear DNA they don't know how to use correctly just yet.....In that case I'd rather go with "looks" or phenotypical expression......

BTW....why isn't there a plethora of hybrids at reptile expos?
I've been to lots of them across the nation and they are certainly the minority.........
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Agreed 100% I wouldn't waste my time or money for a hybrid. It's personal preference IMO. Impulse buy usually means it's a novelty that wears off. Bluerosy's approach (no offense) is that they make money so breed em'. That's not why I breed snakes. That's not why I keep snakes and it certainly isn't a bad thing to make some money doing something you love. But to do something because it is a novelty that people will pay for doesn't make it a good thing. The reason I got in to Hondos was simple; pretty snakes with a good amount of size to them. I love my Cali kings. They're feeding machines and even the wild phenotype is awesome looking. They eat mojave green rattlesnakes even how bad a$$ is that? I guess at the end of the day the old saying fits, "to each their own." For now mine stays pure.
-JT

For now mine stays pure

But your Hondos and cal kings are not pure.

It is all what is between the ears. And what ever makes you happy and you want to beleive.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

The only problem I've encountered time and time and time again is misrepresentation

So you are complaining because you felt ripped off in a past sale and that is why hybrids are bad? So it all really comes down to your pocketbook.....basically it comes down to money. That is what the issue is.

"misrepresentation" can be done on many levels on anything you buy. It all boils down to how smart the buyer is and WHO they are purcashing from. I have bought knives and guns on the internet that were misrepresented.. Same with snakes.

Basically if the seller doesn't know (ie Petsmart, jobbers, REPTILE shows, etc) the lineage, then don't complain over the sale. Also you know what they say about a "deal"-if it is too good it is probably not true.

MORE SO- if people worked with hybrids as they do with other species of snakes, then they would know more about what a hybrid is or looks like. It is like any specialty field.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

>>The only problem I've encountered time and time and time again is misrepresentation
>>
>>
>>So you are complaining because you felt ripped off in a past sale and that is why hybrids are bad? So it all really comes down to your pocketbook.....basically it comes down to money. That is what the issue is.
>>
>>"misrepresentation" can be done on many levels on anything you buy. It all boils down to how smart the buyer is and WHO they are purcashing from. I have bought knives and guns on the internet that were misrepresented.. Same with snakes.
>>
>>
>>Basically if the seller doesn't know (ie Petsmart, jobbers, REPTILE shows, etc) the lineage, then don't complain over the sale. Also you know what they say about a "deal"-if it is too good it is probably not true.
>>
>>
>>
>>MORE SO- if people worked with hybrids as they do with other species of snakes, then they would know more about what a hybrid is or looks like. It is like any specialty field.

I agree Rainer.......
What I was referencing was ads in the classifieds and snakes I've seen at some shows......They are sometimes misrepresented......Not always on purpose mind you.....

That is why I only purchase from a handful of folks across the nation.........But as like most of us I wasn't always like this.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>The only point I am trying to make is that I would pay $700 for a nice Ultra Granite Mex Mex or Super Striped Ruthveni and would never pay that much on a Hybrid Mexicana......NEVER.....
>>

well you have paid close to that for some choice hybrids, you just didn't know it - and every time you buy a thayeri you are buying a snake with mixed lineage, you know that.....

>>well you have paid close to that for some choice hybrids, you just didn't know it - and every time you buy a thayeri you are buying a snake with mixed lineage, you know that.....

I know about the mixed lineages of thayeri for sure and about the taxonomic mess......

But explain where I have paid that much for some choice hybrids.....I think I know where you are coming from......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I would not take a hybrid for free.
-----
Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

>>I have to disagree with you buddy.......
>>I much rather have a locality animal than a hybrid.

These two are not mutually exclusive. Locality hybrids exist.

>>These two are not mutually exclusive. Locality hybrids exist.

True....Point taken.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yes it can be done and has been done for many many years.

Please make sure if you actually do it, to call them what they are. Do not pass them off as pure or normals.

Contrary to what others say, hybrids are worth more then normals, specially these days when normal colubrids are nearly worthless(sad but true)

At most shows, you can find beautiful colubrids for under $25.

It's fortunate you have roughly three years before most would advice breeding them... more than enough time to form your own opinion based on what you read here and elsewhere.

My opinion since you ask... appreciate them for what they are not what you can turn them into... thousands upon thousands of years have gone into making them what they are, should you muck that up in three years simply because you can?

Gerry

Here's a message for all you closed minded individuals that are against hybrids.

"It's not the strongest of the species that survives,nor the most intelligent,but the ones most responsive to change"

Charles Darwin

Can you? I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that quote was about an animal in NATURE.. Not an artificial environment. Put one of those hybrids in a tank with a wild caught king the same size and I've got 20$ on the king.

Well it seems like everyone forgets that this DOES happen in nature, all the time. There are entire populations of hybrids and it's a natural part of speciation. Biological perversion someone called it?? lol These are antiquated views folks. Please do some research and get with the times. Thayeri is one species in the OP's project, and thayeri in various wild populations mix with alterna in the north, have strong triangulum influence in the east, and fade into mexicana in the south, and who knows what else?

Have fun, just keep em labeled correctly.

shhh... no one wants to hear that.

Yes, Darwin was referring to animals but the same can be applied to humans.

So many closed minded people in this forum. If someone wants to breed hybrids that's their choice and it's their snakes and they have a right to do whatever they like with their snakes. Their only responsibility is to let the buyers know what they are getting. To each his/her own. End of story.

"Their only responsibility is to let the buyers know what they are getting"

That is only if you are that IRRESPONSIBLE to think that is how the dynamics of this hobby actually works(you know,close-mindedness). See, many crosses go on to be sold as what they best represent down the line as soon as they leave someone's table, but especially when they become of breeding age. THAT is when most of the trouble gets snow-balling, especially the one's that don't look VERY discernably different, and look fairly close to a 100% genuine subspecies of something in this hobby.

These crosses EASILY get sprinkled around throughout collections all around the country, and it happens all the time on a very daily basis. So then they ultimately get bred to what????............ a snake that has the same exact hybrid/cross combination that they themselves were consisted of??...LOL!!!!...PLEEEEASE!.........no, of course they don't. They get get dispersed and bred to many real genuine species/subspecies to only muck-up more authentic types along the way.

The totally ridiculous argument that some keep using about hybrids producing in nature has absolutely nothing to do with anything here whatsoever. Nobody is talking about what nature does, because that is all well and good! We are talking about captive collections, and people knowingly producing snakes on purpose that inevitably get mixed even further into WHATEVER type snakes in the hobby,..knowingly, or un-knowingly(usually UN-knowingly)to create yet more undescernible animals that once again get dispersed into yet more captive-bred collections.

I don't guess any of these people ever really stop to think what actually becomes of any of these crossed lines they produce, because they sure as HELL don't stay the same as they originally were made in their basements. Most simply go out and muck up authentic bloodlines and the integrities of countless lines after they are sold, and not just here and there either, it is by the countless FOLDS!. See, once these are out there, and their offspring is out there, and their offspring's offspring gets out there, they cannot be taken back!

......END OF STORY!

Well, not really, because the sad "story" keeps getting played out countless times from just one generations offspring that gets dispersed, let alone all the countless thousands out there now.

I guess it is the people that try so valiantly to keep the subspecific genetic integrity of a certain species or subspecies they are working with going in spite of all the contrary efforts of many who don't care about anything whatsoever except seeing something goofy popping out of their eggs so they can go muddy-up real stuff as fast as humanly possible,..right??

Too bad some of you folks don't put as much effort into line-breeding for traits that are interesting and might not have ever been seen before. Oh, but that might take a little time..huh??. Yes, why do that when you can cross something and get gratified by a silly "Franken-snake"??

yeah,...."close-minded" my ASS!, close-minded is not giving two craps about the integrity of what you produce, or what they ever get bred to, or what someone mistakes them for being when they look at the offspring and buy them to un-knowingly create more.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>yeah,...."close-minded" my ASS!, close-minded is not giving two craps about the integrity of what you produce, or what they ever get bred to, or what someone mistakes them for being when they look at the offspring and buy them to un-knowingly create more.

Eloquent.

Plus, every time someone produces hybrids they give up the opportunity to produce more of the spectacular animals that took so long to evolve in nature. So--to me--there's an error of omission, as well as one of commission, when someone hybridizes. To me--it shows a lack of appreciation for the animals they have.

" To me--it shows a lack of appreciation for the animals they have. "

Exactly!!!!!! Could not have said it better myself.
-----
Genesis 1:1

Terry,
I enjoy your posts very much......and respect what you have done and what you contribute........

I do have to ask this though.....

You worked mainly with Hobby Hondos, correct......After the Gouldian Finches that is.........lol

Weren't many of the Hondureans hybrid or intergrades with Oligozona and Polyzona and not to mention Stuarti?

Or were they "PURE" L. t. hondurensis EVERY time in your collection?
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Okay...I guess Terry signed off for tonight or went to bed already.......

It seems no one ever wants to touch on this subject though.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

It seems no one ever wants to touch on this subject though.......

Regarding the honduran founder stock...

..If a tree falls in the forest. does it make a sound?

What you don't know can't hurt you right?
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

It seems no one ever wants to touch on this subject though.......

Regarding the honduran founder stock...

What you don't know can't hurt you right?

And that is EXACTLY what I mean by "no one ever wants to touch on this subject"........LOL

Same thing goes for the White Sided Floridana......oops, sorry.....LOL

BTW...we can record the tree falling in the forest now.....it still makes a sound if no ears are there to hear it.....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

The way I see it, in nature there are intergrades all over. That's undeniable. And many hobbyists recognize that and agree that early herpetoculture was riddled with misidentification and incorrect classifications etc etc. The point now being more or less trying to keep what is considered pure (which is sometimes a loose interpretation of the term already) the way it is found in nature. Doug Mong's website has a pretty good explanation of the history of "hobby" Hondos on the main page. I think some of the hybrid snakes are gorgeous, but IMO selective breeding and finding ideal traits that I hope to emphasize in my selective breeding is much more challenging and fulfilling. Just my two cents.
-JT

>>The way I see it, in nature there are intergrades all over. That's undeniable. And many hobbyists recognize that and agree that early herpetoculture was riddled with misidentification and incorrect classifications etc etc. The point now being more or less trying to keep what is considered pure (which is sometimes a loose interpretation of the term already) the way it is found in nature. Doug Mong's website has a pretty good explanation of the history of "hobby" Hondos on the main page. I think some of the hybrid snakes are gorgeous, but IMO selective breeding and finding ideal traits that I hope to emphasize in my selective breeding is much more challenging and fulfilling. Just my two cents.
>>-JT

JT...I am doing the exact same thing with known "uncompromised" lines of Mex Mex........many different phases, morphs, mutations to cross and create new looks............

The term we should all know is "morph mining".....that is what us hobbyist do with "pure" animals.....we line breed until the traits line up and produce something that has been hidden in their DNA for eons or just years...we don't know.....

But some of us do it WITHOUT hybridization.......Some of us do not.......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

What people don't realize is the geographical diversity and proximity with south american milksnakes in the "so called' areas that the hondurns are found in.

Study that and then the elevations and the possibilities of even getting in there.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

>>Weren't many of the Hondureans hybrid or intergrades with Oligozona and Polyzona and not to mention Stuarti? ...Or were they "PURE" L. t. hondurensis EVERY time in your collection?

Fair questions. I think all we can do in our endeavors is what can be measured by our intent. When i started breeding hondos there was no discussion i was aware of that they had incorporated occasional breedings with a variety of ssp. When the subject came up--when Brian Barczyk advertised his albinos as polyzona--plenty of us were interested in seeking the truth. He and Louis Porras traced their snakes back to what they believed were the same European origins, and concluded both were working with Hondurans. Right or wrong? Dunno. Would I ever have bought for breeding purposes with my hondos a snake i thought was one of the other ssp? Nope. Once, I imported an anery (hypoanerythristic) "honduran" from Honduras but when a few friends saw pix of it one of them questioned its identity. I sent it to the most knowledgeable of them. He concluded it was not hondurensis, but one of the other ssp. I let him keep it, where it's being bred "with its own kind". Yes, based on all that many smart and experienced people have reported, I think there were inadvertent crosses with other L.t.ssp, and that to a small degree many "hondurans" today fall short of 100% "purity".

Ironically, it's the arguments of many hybrid advocate that diminish the impact of that conclusion. Many "hondurans" imported from honduras came from collectors at the fringes of hondurensis range, and sometimes--as was the case with the anery i imported--from the range of another ssp from an adjacent country, where a collector found it and brought it to the honduran exporter. The infrequent captive crosses of closely-related ssp created intergrades like those occurring in nature along the edges of north american milk ranges, for example. (continued BRIEFLY in next post)

I do appreciate your honesty Terry.....

I think the same thing has happened with many BCI and BCC imports......All from a certain ports without known locality.....

I think the only "PURE" snakes are the ones we find ourselves in the wild.....we are dealt with what we have when it comes to my kind of kings....Mexicana....

But, that is another topic for sure.....it is a Taxonomic nightmare that needs some clarity for sure........Maybe after all the Mexican drug dealers die out someone can.....I'll be too old or dead by then....LOL
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>I think the only "PURE" snakes are the ones we find ourselves in the wild.....

The fact that a snake has a wild origin has absolutely nothing to do with the so called "purity" of it's origin.

In fact, in the context that this forum misuses the term pure, there is probably not a single snake that can conform to the definition. It really is a misleading term and has no place in the hobby.

Most, if not all of us know what is meant by this word when applied to snakes.

>>Most, if not all of us know what is meant by this word when applied to snakes.

of course, everyone knows what it means, but the snakes which "we" call pure are anything but....see?

If one finds an apparent corn snake in the wild, and it looks, acts, and smells like what we know as a corn snake, then by all measures we can reasonably evaluate it is functionally a "pure" corn snake.

This is the basic standard most seem to use for "pure". We're not really in a position to question or ascertain a wild snake's ancestral lineage.

That's very spot-on. I see many folks that like to use the argument of their extremely distant ancestry/geneology in an attempt to justify making their basement-made crosses. It has nothing to do with the real topic at hand whatsoever. Alot of this issue seems to be taken to ridiculous extremes that are totally irrelevant to the topic of making undiscernible snakes that get easily misidentified in the hobby, then bred to whatever and continue to be propagated by folds every season.

Like you said, If I captured a cornsnake in Central Florida, I will assume it likely doesn't have any L.m.thayeri influence to it's lineage..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

It's actually very relevant to the conversation. We KNOW that for a fact they do occasionally stray, so what percentage is acceptably pure? And because we can't verify the genome we're going to accept on faith that it's pure? The corn snake is probably a perfect example too, because we know there is going to be obsoleta in the heritage. Was it two generations ago or twenty?
You want black and white, but we have shades of gray.

Certainly you don't believe that I am unaware of all that,....right?

However, I chose to make things as less "gray" as possible.

I do have some newly-discovered locality-specific hypo "greenish" ratsnakes that originate from northeast S. Carolina. These are definitely natural intergrades and they are fabulous in my opinion. The big difference being is that the cross was not done in anyone's plastic tub mixing un-like ssp.

The extremely pale original male was captured personally by a good friend of mine in 2006 as a young sub-adult of less than 20 inches. He was subsequently bred to two W/C females that were also captured by him less than 150 yards from the morph male.

Can't wait to get some offspring from these guys. Bet it won't be long before their awesome, distict locality-specific identity is stripped away by some silly shmuck that later crosses them with Bubblegum Rat x Calico Black Rat x Leucistic Texas Rat, x hypo Everglades x Amel Yellow Rat, etc...

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I think this is kinda the point.

Whats pure about a morph, any morph. By difinition, its a genetic oddity, or screwup, not destinted to live carry its genes in nature. A test so to speak.

Then the hobby is full of morphs, possible het for more morphs and all of which are not representative of a normal population.

yet, these are pure?????????????? naw, they are not either.

The actual point is, captive created morphs, hybrids etc. ARE in the same bucket and for captivity only. They are collectors items because they are not normal. So, how can you call them pure and not normal in the same sentence.

In the end, when you talk about captivity, its about personal likes and dislikes. The rest is horse shat. just rationalizations to back up your personal likes. Which is fine, thats what folks do.

So many of you HAVE to tell others what to do. If you say anything only a few things would be valid.

Take good care of your animals would be valid.

Do not misrepresent them, another valid statement,

And do not turn them loose in nature, which is a good statement for any captive, pure or not.

But to tell others to do what you like, hahahahahahahahahahaha wars are fought over that kind of crap.

Read my post again. I never stated the morph "greenish" rats I had were "pure" anything. However the original pale morph sire was indeed a product of nature and 100% locality-specific, as were the females he was bred with. They are just as authentic(or more so) as any snakes in the entire hobby.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

"Take good care of your animals would be valid.

And do not turn them loose in nature"

I like.
-----
“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>>>I think the only "PURE" snakes are the ones we find ourselves in the wild.....
>>
>>
>>The fact that a snake has a wild origin has absolutely nothing to do with the so called "purity" of it's origin.
>>
>>In fact, in the context that this forum misuses the term pure, there is probably not a single snake that can conform to the definition. It really is a misleading term and has no place in the hobby.

I do agree with you....."pure" is the wrong term......

The known locality snakes are the ones we find ourselves......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

. (continued BRIEFLY from prevous post)

The same is true of snakes from along intergrade ranges for L.g.getula.

The question is, in our captive breeding, when we're aware of these distinctions and their consequences, what do we do? Do we strive to sustain ssp characteristics as best we can? Or do we throw out any ambition for that because in the end, there's that inarguable possibility that any snake might not be 100% pure? Do we pretend degree doesn't matter? Each of us has to decide: Do we want to be the guy or gal who tries to find the best mate for our snake, the one closest to its ssp or even locale? Or do we want to be the one who crosses willy-nilly with disregard for the identity of what we produce? Whether a honduran might have had in its past an intergrade great-grandfather or a mis-identified ssp great-great-grandmother is one thing. Crossing thayeri X sinaloae or a rat x a king is something entirely different. People can recognize that their actions have consequences, and act accordingly, and imho we're all smart enough to recognize the differences in degrees.

We do the best we can with what we have. Intent. That's what i think constitutes our best respect for the animals that exist in the wild, how we best show our respect for the animals in captivity, and best respect those herpetoculturists who will someday breed from the animals we produce.

Very well stated once again Terry!. This is exactly how the Honduran issue began decades ago, and all the way up to more recent times. I explain alot of this in-depth on my site's home page as well. Let me add just a bit to your already great explanation of how this all came about.

It didn't start from intentional crossing at all, the Latin forms of milksnakes have always been tough to accurately identify on the best of days, even for the most well-seasoned field taxonomists/biologists.

Then when you consider that countless numbers of milksnakes were captured and imported from many different locales over those years, transported to whatever shipping port worked best(and cheapest)politics-wise, and labeled them as whatever someone wanted to say they were(regardless of what they actually were)to coincide with where they were "supposed" to have originated from, there is no wonder at all that there can be some mixed lineage involved with these snakes. Certainly all the milksnakes ever imported from Central America could not all be genuine L.t.hondurensis, it just isn't possible. Even Bill and Kathy Love's original "tangerine dream" was acquired from a store in Miami, and was thought to be a coral snake of all things..LOL!

Here is a quote about that animal directly from Bill Love.....

"Kathy and I bought the original 'Tangerine Dream' L. t. hondurensis for $25 from Aurora Castellanos (her Honduran import business was called Viva Animales, in Miami) around 1986. It was under deep shavings in a small aquarium in her narrow venomous herp room in her shop (which I asked to see because I was interested in eyelash vipers). She was convinced it was a coral snake. She said they came in as extra 'junk' that she really didn't want, and was probably tickled to 'ream' me for that much to be rid of it. I knew instantly that it was a Honduran milk; that was the only thing I ever thought it was. After we hooked it out of the cage (because it was 'venomous') and bagged it, we moved past her hot room to look at other herps she imported from family members in Honduras. That's when my companion -- renowned herp artist Marty Capron of Kansas -- asked if the 'coral' I bought was what he suspected it really was, and I replied 'yes'. Marty immediately said "I wonder if there are any more of them hiding under the shavings in th cage". I was so excited to get the one I saw tucked behind the water bowl that I never checked for others in the cage. Marty uncovered one more milk - a tricolor phase baby L.t. hondurensis, which he bought for $25 also. Aurora definitely didn't recognize juvenile milks for what they really were, but since she paid for corals, she made the proper mark-up on them, and I didn't feel bad that I ripped her off.

"We eventually bred it to other hondurensis that we got from Viva Animales and other importers who were getting hondurensis in in quantity at the time. We chose the most attractive females we could find. Aurora imported only from Honduras, but I suppose it's possible even her imports (or those of numerous others) could have come from broad areas that included other races of L. triangulum."...........end quote.

So the bottom line is that they never originally got crossed on purpose at all, it all stemmed from lack of knowledge and not being able to distinguish the Latin subspecies from the very beginning. Heck, it is still the very same way today as a matter of fact. There are VERY few people that can accurately identify the Latin subspecies of triangulum. This is WAAAY different than someone intentionally throwing a Cal. king in with a thayeri to produce what they think is a cool cutting edge must have "Franken-snake"..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Where do naturally occuring intergrades fall into this I wonder? We know specks and deserts interbreed some at the edges of thier range...If I was to produce a locality mix, no one would be PO'd. But if I produced a mix from non local specific specks and deserts, I know some would be.
-----
We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

Very much agreed my friend!

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Doug,I would have to agree with your last post 100%,very well put.Alan

Thanks Alan. Glad you can see some of the logic in all this.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I thoght they are not even considered Kingsnakes anymore on here. Didnt KS make a special place to talk about these...mesozoic snakes things?
-----
Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

>>Yes, Darwin was referring to animals but the same can be applied to humans.
>>
>>So many closed minded people in this forum. If someone wants to breed hybrids that's their choice and it's their snakes and they have a right to do whatever they like with their snakes. Their only responsibility is to let the buyers know what they are getting. To each his/her own. End of story.

Yep then it all gets effed up cuz someone forgot or chose to forget.....what a crock......

Darwin was speaking to evolution not mad scientists......learn the difference...It takes eons to evolve......only a few years to create a screwed up gene pool of a hybrid......Isn't anything sacred anymore? Why screw up something we cannot go into the wild and collect anymore?
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>only a few years to create a screwed up gene pool of a hybrid......Isn't anything sacred anymore? Why screw up something we cannot go into the wild and collect anymore?

well, really this is the crux of the matter and where the purists fall off track, because they start with the "assumption" that their gene pools are pure, and nothing can be further from the truth, the gene pools are not "pure" to begin with. In the WILD, gene pools are already mixed, and by "our man made terms', "impure", hahaha.

No, most people do not assume that. Most fairly people are already very aware that wild populations of any animals have gradually evolved over many millenia to become their own entities, and of course are always changing just as everything else in the universe does. this is just common sense understanding of the natural world. That has absolutly nothing to do with the topic here of purposely crossing two VERY different types of snakes in a basement. I see alot of talk here about how genuine/authentic species/subspecies are often misidentified, which of course is VERY true, and I see this all the time as well. So that really only goes to prove that man-made crossed specimens that are mixed composits would be FAAAR more often misidentified, sold and perpetuated in the hobby. Now someone tell me this isn't so??

It's almost as if some here are stating that just because many snakes in the hobby are already questionable, or some get misidentified at shows and pet stores, etc..., then it's quite okay and great to do their best to make more undiscernible crosses for everyone to wonder what they actually are. Like the "if you can't beat'en, join'em" type of thing.

Also, I see so many people twist the inaccurate term "pure" all out of text in an attempt to justify creating their purposely-made crossed snakes. For the record, no animal(living organism) is actually "pure" like a virgin laboratory chemical would be, but they absolutely can be termed "authentic" or "genuine" forms in the center portions of their many ranges throughout the world.

All I know is that whatever types I ever start with and breed, they will never just magically become an entirely different composite of snake from knowingly tossing them together with a totally different species/ssp., whether they be genetic mutations, or wild phenotypes. Even if it is 20 years later, they will still remain the same basic subspecies I started with minus of course the selective-bred equation.

In other words, I seriously doubt any half-way experienced people will ever look at them and wonder what the hell they are.

As Terry Dunham stated earlier, it's really about what we breed and offer to the public that will in turn be what those people will be breeding when they mature.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

me thinks ya'll are racists.
-----
www.Bluerosy.com

I'm is a snake racist..

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

In the future almost all native forms will be illegal to own hybrids will be our only salvation.

Now I certainly hope it doesn't come to this, but it certainly would not surprise me given the money and power grabbing AR machine at hand.

That would be ironic, huh?

On all the other, I certainly understand the issue from all sides. I just fall more in the middle than some of you. I feel that calling Mesosoics' snake a Trash snake was wrong, flat out. Hey the snake doesn't know it's a hybrid, and it is a damn good looking snake. Thayeri are mutts in nature anyway, and I know a little bit about that subject. By the time we finished mixing (in captivity) the mutts from Iturbide to the mutts from Chorro Canyon to the mutts from Aramberri and Doctor Arroyo - there's your hybrid right there lol. I LOVE THAYERI, but I would not begin to classify them as "pure".

How can you hate on a snake? Poor defenseless snake. lol

Oh, I can definitely roll with alot of that Joe, no doubt about it. We both know it can often be just a matter of how close one really wishes to look into the pores with the ol' microscope.

10x power, or 10,000x power..

Terry Dunham addressed that very well in his earlier post.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>>By the time we finished mixing (in captivity) the mutts from Iturbide to the mutts from Chorro Canyon to the mutts from Aramberri and Doctor Arroyo - there's your hybrid right there lol. I LOVE THAYERI, but I would not begin to classify them as "pure".

SSSSSSSHHHHHHH your gonna give lassiter heart failure LOL
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
-----
Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>>>By the time we finished mixing (in captivity) the mutts from Iturbide to the mutts from Chorro Canyon to the mutts from Aramberri and Doctor Arroyo - there's your hybrid right there lol. I LOVE THAYERI, but I would not begin to classify them as "pure".
>>
>>SSSSSSSHHHHHHH your gonna give lassiter heart failure LOL
>>,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
>>-----
>>Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
>>
>>my website www.barmollysplace.com

Actually I agree with the lineage crossing from those three locales as non pure......
Just as a calking from San Diego that is bred to a Bishop, California King is not......different lineage, locality and genes......Just similar phenotypical expression......
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>To each his/her own. End of story.

Thanks for putting an end to this. I was starting to think it was a discussion among people arguing different points of view, that being a good way to test ideas.

and yeah, i'm kidding. Every time i see an opinion expressed with "end of story" I'm reminded of what Bertrand Russell said:

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."

Don't tell ME when the story's over!

>>>>To each his/her own. End of story.
>>
>>Thanks for putting an end to this. I was starting to think it was a discussion among people arguing different points of view, that being a good way to test ideas.
>>
>>and yeah, i'm kidding. Every time i see an opinion expressed with "end of story" I'm reminded of what Bertrand Russell said:
>>
>>"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
>>
>>Don't tell ME when the story's over!
-----
John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I will take that $20 bucks.

About five years ago, I placed a wicked thayeri female, who had killed two males, in with a black and white cal king, expecting for her to become dinner.

It didn't, they bred she made nice beautiful "th ings" I now have a couple generations of them. Some of those THINGS are pretty some are not. One came out like a black and white super alterna. Mostly white.

What kind of response was that?!? Insulting Darwin is where I draw the line, LOL. Darwinism, if you'd read his work, emphasizes evolution from a natural perspective.....in this case of extreme crosses/hybrids, you can ONLY use this if, say for example....if the United States somehow, through natural forces over time, overlapped with Mexico and Florida kings had the uncontrolled, naturalistic option to begin inter-breeding with, for example, Sinaloan milks. THAT is unarguable.

We are talking about taking two completely different snakes and influencing them by dropping them into a plastic tub to breed....and whether or not they do, it is nature's way to seek out and procreate as the internal drive is strong despite the difference of species/ssp. To not consider this is, to me, very much closed-minded. Just my 2 cents that I feel will develop interest and turn into a bill depending on your response. LOL!
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

There are no arguments he can do whatever he wants with the snakes. Everyone merely expressed their opinions as to whether or not he should do it and why or why not. I'm not sure what happened that derailed this train. No one said he can't do it. No one is saying there aren't naturally occurring intergrades. I think everyone that expressed their concern was voicing their opinion on propagation of CAPTIVE hybrid snakes. Keep things in focus or it becomes meaningless rambles.

No, I'm not missing the point. I just get offended everytime someone mentions 'hybrids', all the jackals and hyenas come out of the woodwork with their condescending overtures. "Blah, blah, blah, it's genetic junk and you can't spell and it's all wrong and you must be a novice followed by the laughter (lmao)". It's always the haughty, high and mighty attitude that just rubs one the wrong way.

Please refer to my aforementioned statements earlier in the thread. I'm not telling him NOT to do it, just pointing out why it doesnt make sense to. It's more than just aesthetics involved.
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Please re-read my last post ok...Of course you never said not to do it, only that WHY would you want to do it. If someone wants to breed hybrids that's their choice. That's why. How does that sound? There's no need for the condescending laughter, picture (bird, dungball) or jokes from the jackals and hyenas. Do you understand where I'm coming from now jkruse?

Sure!!,....it's everyone's American right to simply do as they please, and screw things up for other people down the road. It's the "American way" to chop their nose off in spite of their face.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Screw things up? Bite your nose to spite your face? Huh? I guess you really told me. You see, this is exactly what I mean. The mean spirited, condescending, self-righteous attitude. There's no respectfully disagreeing here, just an in your face I'm holier than thou disposition.

Ok, I think I've had enough of this dialogue. Take care Doug Mongrel and the rest and enjoy your 'so-called' purebred snakes.

Now mind you, the following words came from YOU and I had never, ever spoken to you EVER before.......

"Please re-read my last post ok...Of course you never said not to do it, only that WHY would you want to do it. If someone wants to breed hybrids that's their choice. That's why. How does that sound? There's no need for the condescending laughter, picture (bird, dungball) or jokes from the jackals and hyenas. Do you understand where I'm coming from now jkruse?"

Another case of the pot calling the kettle black.

wait for it....

waaaaiiittt forrr iiitttttt.........

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
" alt="Image">
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

Yes, I'm sure you meant "Mongrel" in the friendliest way possible, right?

See, when someone has to actually explain the reasons why it isn't a good idea to create them, it always turns out to be a complete waste of time in doing so.

It's just like when I explained the ultra/ultramels were a hybrid cross awhile back on the "cornsnake" forum, you got you panties all in a wad and had a huge temper tantrum that got everything deleted,...right??...

Yes, you have a great handle on refraining from insults, we can all clearly see that..LMFAO!!

Try reading my very straight-forward post above that I made without any personal insults about how crosses do indeed infiltrate unknowingly into genuine bloodlines of all types of things every single day no matter how honestly they are intially represented. The simple fact is this just doesn't work at all, especially later down the road when they themselves are bred to whatever the hell and have crossed offspring that closely resembles a single specific subspecies of some type.

One last closing note: If snakes weren't crossed all the time on purpose, knobody would have to worry or argue about it in the first place, now would they??

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Hmmmm.....all the years i've been on this forum I've not seen you here. And just who are you again to flex the way you're doing? Please don't cause me to roll up the sleeves. I didnt direct any of my humor at you and have been respectful.....thus far. Hybrids suck, plain and simple and there's no need for them. Why not join in on the hybrid forum?! You wanted a prick, now ya got one. *ding ding*....ROUND ONE.
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

"you wanted a prick and now you've got one" Is that what you say to your wife when she rattles your cage? Will you say that to your daughter too? Now we know a little more about you, Mr. Sexist Pig. I'm sure your mother is so proud of you.

I'm done with this hostile forum.

Well the real point here is that if you don't start nothing there won't be nothing. Like I said, I had no exchanges with you until you came outta nowhere and unleashed. Own up to what you contribute!

Sexist pig? What did I say that lead you to THAT?!? LMAO....what planet are you from?

" alt="Image">
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

"you wanted a prick and now you've got one" That's not a sexist statement? What planet are you living on? Furthermore, that youtube clip you posted with the Down Syndrome child is just disgusting and shows just what an insensitive you person you are. You are an ugly person inside and out.

waitttting forrrrr ittttt - An apology that is.

>>... the jackals and hyenas.

Just a couple thoughts:

1) I'd be glad to listen to an argument from you more provocative than, "we can if we want, we can if we want..." Do you think hybrids contribute to herpetoculture? Do you see any difference in the intrinsic value of a sinaloan in the wild, versus a "pure" sinaloan in captivity, compared to a hybrid? In other words, i'd be happy to listen to your arguments against some of the arguments I or others here have presented. Test my ideas. Show me where they're wrong. I've never denied people CAN do whatever they want. Hell, they can buy as many "pure" snakes as they can afford, and kill them all. I'm trying to offer qualitative arguments for whether or not some of the things herpetoculturists CAN do SHOULD be done--for the sake of the snakes, the sake of the hobby, and the sake of other herpetoculturists. I think those are reasonable avenues of discussion. "Can too, can too" doesn't contribute much.

2) am I a jackal? or a hyena? just curious. As for you, I suspect you're probably a nice guy, with a self-interest in hybrids, and a little too much resistance to hearing ideas that question that. I'd happily be proven wrong.

>>>>>arguments I or others here have presented. Test my ideas. Show me where they're wrong.

They aint right or wrong, just opinions and everyone has one. that is what is entirely amusing about these discussions and the lengths some folks go to assert their opinions on others.

Every once in a while someone someone comes up with a reason why these fora are dying. I submit this thread as classic cause and effect.

So what about breeding my milk phase thayeri kingsnake to a different type of thayeri king snake? And how would some thing like that come out.

Fancy meeting you down here in this thread..LOL!

Sorry it all went south so quickly, but this basically happens whenever this topic comes up.

If you breed your MSP(milksnake phase) thayeri to another thayeri of any type, you can get all sorts of combinations of phenotypes(visual looks)out of any given clutch. There other common name is "Variable king", and for very good reason, as they can be EXTREMELY variable.

If you did a google search on "variable kingsnake","L.m.thayeri", "Nuevo Leon kingsnake", etc..., you will see a huge array of different interesting looks. You could have no two look alike in many clutches, even if you continued breeding them countless times too. They are just that variable.

cheers, ~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

LOL. I popped in once before. Thanks for that info. I didn't know a veritable king was the same as a thayeri king. I will be looking them up. Sorry for opening up this can of worms. I was just wondering what others thought since I was told by the vendor at the Las Vegas reptile show that I got my milk snake from said they would make a cool mix and I didn't know you could breed them together. Since I am some what new to snakes and other reptiles I like to ask a lot of questions for help and to improve what I already know.

I went to that show. It's a bummer with Vegas being so popular that they can't get a better show together. The shows in the rest of the country are much more impressive. If you're interested in breeding your variable to another variable check out the classifieds here or on fauna. There's a guy in town named Tad Fitzgerald you might want to send an email. And he will let you know whatever you need to know.

Cool thank for the info. Ya this show was sad. I remember years ago when I want to one in Pamona in Ca. That was a nice show.

The Pomona show is good the one in San Diego is great too. If you have any questions about anything feel free to send me an email. I know it can be confusing and there are a lot of opinions out there when it comes to snakes. I was lucky and found a guy here in Vegas that breeds Hondos and got a lot of great animals from him. Doug Mong has also been a lot of help and has answered a lot of my questions when I started getting in to breeding. Everyone on these forums (the regulars at least) are pretty knowledgeable. Even if they don't agree on everything. Tad Fitzgerald has some nice snakes and he's willing to help too. I think that's one benefit of this hobby. Everyone seems to be willing to help out. Good luck with your snakes and if you have any questions shoot me an email or post here.
-JT
Skincity_702@yahoo.com

Yeah, that vendors idea of what a "cool mix" is isn't exactly what I would call it, but it seems to be an all too common view these days.

I will go out on a limb and say that this vendor probably knows very little(if any), or appreciates either snakes natural history.

~Doug
-----
"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

That's all I have to say
-----
King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

You said it! And for a change everyone kept it civil (except a short exchange between Davis and Doug). Very good folks.

theOLDherper
Pete

Whic is precisely why I first responded the way I did...I saw it coming from miles away. But I have to agree, it didnt get as hot in here as it has in years past. And I, for one, think Cindy is to thank for that. Before some would be kicked off in a heartbeat, however since Cindy's reign she has worked with us and moderated maturely/fairly . . . I can't help but feel we now moderate OURSELVES better because of the overall respect she has extended to us as a whole.

But we sure are a passionate bunch of SOB's.......LOL.
-----
Jerry Kruse
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I thoght they are not even considered Kingsnakes anymore on here. Didnt KS make a special place to talk about these...mesozoic snakes things? Like a Hybrid section that you all wanted so bad.
-----
Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com