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I haven't followed the corn scene very closely, but I was wondering: has anyone produced a triple homozygous snow bloodred? Could you tell from a hatchling whether or not the bloodred gene is present, such as by a lack of belly pattern? Or would you have to grow the snake and look for the pattern change (assuming the gene worked alongside the amel/anery the same as it does on a normal BR)?
Any pics out there?
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www.austinreptileshows.com
www.snakerack.info
www.mikefoux.com

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Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

Yes, Justin Guyer produced one last year that I know of. They are known as "Avalanche" corns.

Here is one that Justin recently produced. The only thing that would possibly alude to this one also being homo for bloodred is it's funny head pattern. I'm not sure what the belly looks like on this individual. One would think that there is no trace of any checkering due to the bloodred influence?

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

again, Justin Guyer's photo of one he produced himself.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I managed to find a belly shot that does indeed display the tell-tale absence of ventral checkering on this "avalanche" specimen.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Thanks....
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www.austinreptileshows.com
www.snakerack.info
www.mikefoux.com

Hondurans
Pueblans
Corns
Grey-banded King
California Kings
Speckled Kings (Calcasieu Parish locality)
Brooksi
Goini/Brooksi Crosses
San Diego gophers
Texas Rat
Jungle Carpet Python
Ball Python
BCI
Sulcata
Leopard Geckos
Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

Sure thing Mike!

Yeah, email Justin about the triple het inquiry.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

The Avalanche (Amel Anery Bloodred) photo that Doug posted is my snake. I produced this animal as the result of a 2 generation project. In 2007 I bred a Snow to a Bloodred to produce the triple hets. In 2010 I bred several of the hets back to each other with the hopes of hitting the 1 in 64 odds of producing a triple homozygous animal. I hatched this one male.

At first glance He is not much different than a Snow. The main difference is the 'skull' head pattern that is common with Bloodred morphs. The one I produced doesn't have much going on in the way of diffusion on his sides.

Doug contacted me in private telling me about this thread. I actually had to get the snake out and look at the belly....because honestly, I couldn't remember what the belly pattern was like. It is a patternless belly with no checkers whatsoever. I think that with most if not all of the Bloodred combos their will be little to no belly pattern due to the influence of the diffused gene.

I wonder why there are not more Avalanches out there? There are a few people who have them, but not very many. I've never seen an Avalanche advertized for sale before. Those who have them, including myself are holding on to them.

It's a simple three gene combination...Very common in Corns, it's just that this particular combo really hasn't been worked that much. Is it because the Avalanche so strongly resembles a Snow?

Just thinking out loud here and wondering why this is not a more common combo than what it is.

"Is it because the Avalanche so strongly resembles a Snow?"

I am sure that does indeed have alot to do with it. It is sort of like a hybino Hondo. You can't visually see the other mutation because it is totally masked by the other. In itself these two might not be the most impressive "looking" morphs, but the fact that the Avalanche is triple homozygous means many other things can also be produced with it paired-up with the right genetic mate.

I explained the hybino Hondo thing to a guy a long time ago and told him that it really isn't what you visually see in that particular mutation that is the focus at all, but rather what it is capable of making.

They do have the distinction of a patternless belly, and funny head pattern though, so that is a good identifying trait that it has to identify to folks that it also is homo for the bloodred gene. At least you CAN indeed see that feature, because many others you can't see any evidence of an additional gene, or genes being present in certain morph specimens.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I saw a guy at a show last weekend who had blood reds and snows and asked him about avalanches. He looked at me like I was the stupidest person in the world for suggesting such a combination. I'm with you, Doug, on the value of the genetics. Plus I'm thinking you could line breed and get a pure white snake out of it even if the first few generations retained some of the pattern.
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www.austinreptileshows.com
www.snakerack.info
www.mikefoux.com

Hondurans
Pueblans
Corns
Grey-banded King
California Kings
Speckled Kings (Calcasieu Parish locality)
Brooksi
Goini/Brooksi Crosses
San Diego gophers
Texas Rat
Jungle Carpet Python
Ball Python
BCI
Sulcata
Leopard Geckos
Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

Yes, you also get very solid white phenotypes with "whiteouts", which are amel x charcoal(anery type B) x diffused(bloodred tandem trait). Nothing more than a blizzard x bloodred.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

There is also the Powders which where just produced for the first time a couple of years ago. Powder=Charcoal(Anery type B) Amel Blood Hypo. I don't think there is a visual difference between a Powder and a Whiteout, but with that Hypo gene added in there it makes for much greater combo potential when bred into other morphs.

Some people just don't see or understand the potential. In '08 I bred a Butter Motley to a Blood and I took some of those first generation offspring to a show that I had a booth set up at. The other breeders where like "You bred a Butter Mot to a Bloodred? Well, those are some interesting looking Normals." and I'm thinking "Just wait for it!"

The problem with a lot of breeders that you are going to run into is that most of them can not see past the next generation!!! I think that it is very important to be able to see several generations down the road. And from what I've seen, it is a very RARE ability to have.

Very true Justin!

Yes, many people only focus on what they will produce initially when breeding something. I also think way ahead and visualize what those offspring can produce when back-bred to one another later on, or to something else, etc...

BTW, very true about the "powder" as well with the additional hypo gene.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

True. I find myself banging my head against walls trying to sell hets sometimes. People want something visual. I'm like "Can't you see what this can make??".

I've got big plans for that little Avalanche. I held back an Anery Blood (I HATE the name Granite and refuse to call them that) that is 66% het Amel, and a Fire that is 66% het Anery to breed this bad boy to. He's the first male I'm going to drop on the Tessera girl I have coming. Also this year I bred het Sulphur Motley (Amel Caramel Blood Motley) to another het Sulphur Motley. Those eggs are still inside Mom but will be out soon. I will probably drop the Avalanche on some of those females in the future and see where that project goes. When he grows up I'm going to breed the hell out of that little Avalanche just because of what all he can make!!

Yep!,......sounds like some winning plans bro!

You are so right man. Many people want instant "gratification" with a visual morph, and just don't think about many of the het potentials in the hobby. Hell, many of the muti-hets are actually worth FAR more than some of the visual morphs if you think about it logically. But hey, that's how it works I guess..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I love hets. The best homozygous animals I've produced are from normals that are het for something (Terry Dunham line Hondurans). It was also nice when I unexpectedly produced an awesome really light hypo, since the parents were only poss. hets. It really is like Christmas. There was something more rewarding for me seeing the first little amel nose poke out of the egg. I had dreamed of buying one three years before when they were still $400. Then I got two out of a het x het pairing; I was stoked.

I may end up with another triple het corn clutch. I didn't intend to double clutch this female, but in between shows that I did today for a bunch of preschoolers I just stuck the pair of corns together in the same box for convenience. Right before the second show I noticed that they were locked up. Luckily they were finished by the time their turn came up, and the kids (and teachers) never saw a thing.

BTW, thanks Doug and Justin for e-mailing me. I appreciate your input.
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www.austinreptileshows.com
www.snakerack.info
www.mikefoux.com

Hondurans
Pueblans
Corns
Grey-banded King
California Kings
Speckled Kings (Calcasieu Parish locality)
Brooksi
Goini/Brooksi Crosses
San Diego gophers
Texas Rat
Jungle Carpet Python
Ball Python
BCI
Sulcata
Leopard Geckos
Wife, Caucasius Mexicana Integrade WC

I certainly agree Mike,....I, and many other's I know have produced some insane animals from certain het pairings, and possible het pairings alike.

Sure, you are welcome about the emails my friend.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Dude, anytime you have a quesion or just want to talk snakes, feel free to email me or call me anytime.

I agree with you completely. Doug has seen what I pair up and can verify this...ALL I do is make hets! I have a rule that will never be broken...never breed something to the same thing UNLESS both snakes are het for something else. You will NEVER see me breed a Butter Mot to a Butter Mot..or a Snow to a Snow...well, not unless there is something else there as well. When I do produce really cool homozygous animals...I just plug those into other stuff to make more hets. My goal...what I am after is the 4 and 5 gene animals.

I have more phenotypical 'Normal' Corns in my breeder collection that any other morph. But I produce a lot of really cool critters.

Yeah, and it's a sad thing I think. last year I produced Corns het for 5 traits. I kept them all. I did the same pairing this year. I'll probably keep all of those as well just because the genetic potential of breeding those animals is worth so much more than having to wholesale them as Normals. I can't understand why most people can't SEE!!!

Yep, when there are soooo many newbies in the buying market that don't understand any of this, this is what happens. They only want "cool" colors and patterns in their hand, nothing more.

Ironically the internet is actually responsible for most of this, and countless other things regarding this hobby. There are many facets to this phenomenon...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

True that.

I didn't come around until later and I wasn't breeding before the internet. But I can see what you are saying.

One I produced a couple of years ago...

Funky head pattern...

What a beautiful animal and your photography ROCKS!