Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So I have been wresting with and ethics question this last week so I thought that I would post it here and see what type of response I get... I know there are two sides to this coin and I hope that this can stir a little conversation but without being mean to one other.

So here is my question, What you would do if you were offered a double het for recessive that is dirt cheep because it has a deformity? Now the deformity is not life threatening and for example we will say that it is something physical like a kink in the tail of the animal or say a lower jaw is just a little short giving the animal an overbite. These are what I would consider cosmetic flaws but there is always the possibility that they could transfer genetically also keep in mind that this animal is het double recessive which means that most likely the offspring will be bread back to this parents giving the total goal animal, double recessive visible 75% of this animals genes; however keep in mind any double recessive animal can be a power house in a breeding project. So what you would do and why?

I am really curious to see what type of input I get on this.

Thanks,
Matt

if you tale the cheap road and cut corners be prepared to produce B grade babies. Itis not a fluke to get birth defects from many genes. If it were not a gene prone to defects it could be an incubation issue and in that case it would not matter, but if you are going with something double het with caramel for example, and you produce kinked babies, you reap what you sow right?
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Evan Stahl Reptiles
www.evanstahl.com

if it were a double visual...like say an albino clown...and the price was right, i would take it. but a double het recessive....ehhh. probably double het for ghost caramel wouldnt be worth the outcome. double het for clown pied or axanthic clown ect ect, then maybe. also depends on the deformity. jaw problems are USUALLY an incubation spike, same with slight kinks. then you have the caramel kinks and super cinny duckbill which are genetic. you will in the long run most likely regret the purchase no matter what the combo or issue is. i have had B grade animals in the past and your just never satisfied with them entirely. either take the money and buy a single visual, or save the money till you can buy the snake you actually want. it will be cheaper and better in the long run.
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

A slight kink in the tail would be one thing, a deformed jaw is quite another. Considering the amount of time and effort a project like this would take, I probably wouldn't bother.

Just 2 cents worth.I never sell give or breed defective snakes.I would not want my reputation affected.

I agree completly with the three guys above me; nothing good can come from it, and your reputation for working with garbage animals could hurt you in both the short and long run. Your call.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

Saving a few dollars today will likely cost you down the road.

I can only imagine finally hitting on that double recessive only to find they inherited a major genetic abnormality that causes it not to survive. Imagine having to look at all that potential gone to waste only because you wanted to save a couple hundred dollars.

depends how cheap and what morphs....yes...kink tails are bred every year by the dozens.....sold by the dozens also....

the jaw thing...?...all snakes' lower jaws are shorter than the upper jaw....so is mine..and probably yours?....it's all how you look at it....

....I'd give you 10$ for a het caramel and ghost female....LOL

....actually I got spider het ghost bred to caramel het ghost eggs today......HoneyBee het caramels.....! hoping for 5 of them ! (7 eggs)...

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........JY

I just want to clarify since I do not post on this site very often that I personally am not afraid to save and get what I want, as said I do have 30 animals or so and among those I have 2 clowns (1 reduced pattern), 1 pied, a pin het for pied, a bumble bee which I picked up 2 years ago before they were going for 500, all of which cost me a decent penny to say the least. I do understand how important a reputation is in this world and I personally would stand behind any of my animals.

However, I am still also very new to this industry and that is why I am asking these questions, I have only been working with balls about 3 years and just last week I had my first clutch hatch, and I have a few more cooking and hopefully a few more hiding in moms. I also hope that no one feels like I am just prodding an already answered question. But as someone new to the hobby I also feel like the term garbage animal seems harsh but I do understand what you mean by it; however, I am wondering, say you have a junk snake what do you do with it? I know some of you have said you would not sell, breed or give it way... so do you destroy it or do you keep it in your collection because you feel that it has a right to live and just never allow it to breed.

please continue to part 2

As I have said this is an ethics question and I know that ethics are always a hard topic to talk about because many times there is no black and white, but I personally do not know that I would say I would never sell or give away a second grade animal, because if an animal has a slight kink or a long snout or wobble as long as it is not life threatening to the animal I think it could still make a wonderful pet for someone, but please note if the deformity were life threatening I would destroy it. I also know that many people use this hobby as a business and I do not think on a business side many breeders would financially justify keeping every defective animal for life or destroying them.

Please note that this is my stance as of right now and I am open for input on this topic, I encourage people to respond and I would also like to say thank you for not attacking one another on this topic because as I said ethics get hard because many times there is not black and white scenario.

matt

Give them away for free as pets to people you know. Best way to spread the knowledge of different morphs in ball pythons to people that wouldn't otherwise EVER know about it.

with giving these 'defective' animals away as pets, what if that person decides to breed it, and then sell it's 'defective' offspring;
"Eh, where did you get that defective animal from?"
"Oh this guy? I got him for (whatever YOUR name is)". Reputation destroyed. Through no fault (kinda) of your own.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

I have a hard time seeing that one really hitting your reputation that hard... perhaps I am wrong, but I would like to think with as much time and effort that it takes to build a reputation it should not be destroyed off of someones breeding projects with an animal they percused from you. I know a few large breeders who have had nightmare sales where animals got sick and the buyers nearly pin it on them (these are really hard to prove whos at fault in a lot of cases)but the sellers communicated with the buyer and needless to say the buyer walked away feeling at least like a deal was not a total loss and the breeder still maintained their reputation. If your entire reputation were to be lost over someone breeding one of your animals and gettting defective offspring I think you really need a stronger reputation to begin with.

Matt

I personally have culled them when it happens. only if the defect will effect the quality of life. if its just visual then i would/have rehomed them. i have not hatched any defective balls but a few badly kinked corns. they have on occasion ended up as king food as well...another option if you have snake eating snakes...
adam jeffery
i had a mexican black king that loved his "corn" chips
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.