Reptile & Amphibian Forums

With all this talk about hybrids had me thinking. There is really no groupings or sectors distinguishable by all hobbyist. Especially by newbees. Grayband locality enthusiasts seem to micro manage the locality of their animals to the exact cut or corner of road or Mountain. Triangulum locality collectors seem to Label by certain areas, Cherry County, Lyon County,etc. But, all in all the whole locality seem to be working towards the micro managing of the Grayband enthusiasts way of labeling their animals.

My thoughts are when do locality animals become generic? F3 or higher? Also, can you take a Cherry County Multstriata from one breeder and another from another breeder and label the offspring as Cherry County Multstriata?

You have pair of WC snakes, with a very distinguishable trait from the normal phenotype. Is taking the best of the F1 offspring of a locality pair and then breeding them. Then taking the best of F2 offspring and breeding them. Can we actually call the F3 locality animals "Locality"? Even though they are very distinguishable from the original animals? When would it be considered a "line bred" animal?

Just a few thoughts on the labeling of locality animals. Can't wait to hear what everyone has to say on this.

Also just wanted to touch on the post below on hybrids, I think Terry had a great post and couldn't agree more with his standing. I am not a true locality collector (L.alterna X L.alterna = L.alterna, whether or not if it was from the same cut or Mtn.) but over time the natural appearance of snakes is better than any manmade hybrid in my opinion. To each his own, but I think all we ask is that if you are going to take two different ssp. "Please Label Them Accordingly".

Hope everyone is having a great year, whether locality or hybrid and please stand together to make sure that our children's, children can enjoy this hobby just like we are.

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Jimmy Tintle

Yep. Locality not only describes the group of snakes from the locality itself by location, but they are in essence, a bloodline as well mixed with the locality area, hence the genetic particular characteristics found in some localites that are different than other localities. The two are interchanged. I say that cause while you can have one bloodline that may all be related in one locality, always the chance that not EVERY snake is related, but if they are from the same locality, then they are all that locality and should be labeled as such, as common sense would dictate. Breeding the same pair of locality snakes for years, or incorporating other specimens from the same exact locality in the breedings, does not magically and genetically wipe away the locality aspect after a certain number of breedings. If they are the same breeders, and/or come from the same locality, then they will always be that locality until other localities or unknown localities or lines are bred into them. Even if babies look different, if the line or locality is untouched, they are what they are.

IMO.

Clark Co.

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Genesis 1:1

Nice King, Discern. You don't see many cal kings with that much white that are locality animals.

--Dennis

Thanks!
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Genesis 1:1

I would have to agree, BEAUTIFUL King man!!!!! Is that a "typical" Clark County?

Jimmy,........when I think "locality", to me it only merely represents where the original parent's came from, nothing more, not that the offspring necessarily represent an exact phenotype template of the snakes from that given area, although often it can work that way. I say this because there are countless snakes that are captured underneath the exact same board, or rock that look absolutely NOTHING alike whatsoever.

I myself, and many people I know have hatched snakes from extremely similar looking locality parents(or even sibling parents), and some of the offspring if you were to put them side by side in a deli cup on a table, people would NEVER guess in their wildest dreams that they came from the very same clutch, and automatically assume they were from a totally different pairing.

Now sure, it is very interesting, and nice to know you may very well have a certain phenotype that represents the look of many other snakes in a given specific area, but it isn't necessarily, or realistically always this way at all. So in short, I take the term "locality" as ONLY referring to the place where the original parents were captured, not that any offspring have to look like the parents. Even 25 years later, the locality will never change, although the phenotypes of the offspring certainly can. My view on it is the original parents of this particular bloodline originated from locality "X", nothing more, and if they wanted to know what filial generation produced the snakes in the deli cup, then that would be passed on as well. It is really that simple to me. Some folks look a bit too deep into it I think, but the locality of any two originating animals will never just magically change and become something else after "X" amount of generations. Those snakes will have ALWAYS descended from parents that originated from locality "X". If a buyer wants more recent generation babies to the parents,...fine, if not,...fine, but it won't change where the parents came from that produced the line. I f they don't like the particular phenotype they see, then they can feel free to go somewhere else and get a snake that fits what THEY THINK is what it should look like

This reminds me of certain people that will label a bullsnake, for example..."het for Stillwater hypo"..LMAO!!. A snake CANNOT be "het" for a locality!!, the snake is then only het HYPO, but certainly not het for "Stillwater". It is then simply a non-locale(or generic) het hypo animal, ....simple as that.

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

This is beside your main point but...

A) "Stillwater" in that case is just being used to describe the particular strain of hypo. There are at least two other unrelated strains of hypo floating around.

B) Stillwater is not the snakes' locality. The name comes from the rattlesnake roundup the founder animals were rescued from. The founder snakes' actual locality is unknown as people will come from all over to bring snakes to a roundup.

Yes, I am aware the Stillwater hypo originated from a rattlesnake roundup, and know the entire history. Bill Fitzgerald bought the orange hypo animal for $15 bucks back in 1990. My point was that I ALWAYS see people referring to their crossed lineage hypo bullsnakes as Stillwater hypos, when they are definitely not. Maybe I didn't make it clear enough earlier, but this goes on all the time.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Many folks use the term without having a clue about what it refers to.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

.....we are all correct and all smart.....
I too was thinking , in bullsnake example given, the different colors of hypo are there and used in terminology....light orange , brighter oranges, more pattern , less pattern, ....same idea...corns...okeetee corns..are a color morph now...and Haphazard Road or Jasper County would be more a locality....then there is Aboot's Okees...which have even more of a pattern style of more black to them ....I don't know if Abott are locality to start with or not....

.....it's all market....locality sell for twice or three times the generic prices...so if I am getting snakes...I better get what I like and it better be locality if I want to sell them at all.......milks and grey bands especially.....

balls....no locality to worry about....wait...there are "lines"......

....all good stuff.......I do what I have to to sell snake babies......
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........JY

I hear ya..LOL!

Abbott's Okeetee's are said to have originated from authentic locality stock taken from the 50,000 acre estate, but I certainly wasn't there to witness any of it..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

You mean like a het for okeetee or RO.......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

LOL!!,..that's right!

Or het for "Miami" corn..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Doug I caught all these in Miami in a couple hours. They are all het for Miami phase.Lol.

LOL!!,......awesome hets!!..

Geez yeah, I remember that photo of your insanely productive day.

That is un-freakin real man!

Some really sweet Miami's in there too. you have a nice grab-bag of just about EVERYTHING in there.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Either he got really lucky, or its a joke. Those corns are pretty nice. I've caught tons of corns down there, and most have been hideous.

Yeah, He did post that photo a long time ago on the corn forum though, and also said they were captured in one single outing. Apparently he was searching on the very best day of the equinox when all the planets were in perfect alignment, and there was a partial lunar eclipse..LOL!.

That was one unbelieveable day, no doubt!

I agree Nick, there can be many "fugly" types down their too, as well as nice ones. I grew up in Ft. Lauderdale as a kid, and have seen quite a few from the south Florida area. One of the nicest Miami's I have ever seen was captured by a good friend of mine in the Pompano area in Broward County back in the early 90's. I traded him a couple snakes I produced for her. I told him that I was NOT leaving his house without that snake!!..LOL!

This pic does her no justice whatsoever, but she was definitely an outstanding Miami specimen.

~Doug

an old-school thayeri to keep it in kingsnake theme

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

That one is pretty good, though I get real picky when it comes to orange VS red blotches on those!

Most of the Miami area corns I've found have been in the Homestead/Florida City area, though I have found a few in west Broward and NW Dade. On the right days it seems like anything you flip will hold a corn snake. It seems like I find about 10 ugly ones for every decent one, and I've never found anything down there I'd call a screamer.

My favorite corns actually come from Collier County. They have an interesting range of looks and can look like the best Miami phase you ever seen, or a real nice Okeetee. I used to have a couple that a friend of mine caught out there. I don't have a picture of the female, which looked like a nice Okeetee, but the male is the one in the upper left of this picture. I ought to try and catch some more from that locale.

yeah, that upper left one is nice. Where was the other one from?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

The other was from Sarasota County around North Port.

Cool, thanks!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I always feel lucky when I catch a snake. However I catch that many corns almost everytime I go out. That trip I took a couple friends from Arizona and California. They couldnt belive it either. I also caught this little guy last summer. There is no one type in Miami. I do catch alot of very nice " Miami phase" but I also catch some that look like okeetee's. Thanks...

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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

Heres one more 1 hour trip. Sorry the pics are from last summer as My daughter was born in September so my hunting time has been greatly reduced. I only kept the striped and three females I caught 30' away from him. All the rest were released. Enjoy...

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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

Well where were you when I was in Miami last month? LOL! I would have paid you to take me on an excursion! Hahahaha! Instead I had to fend for myself and consequently didn't see ONE snake....except in an aquarium at a little "side of the road" tourist trap. Next time I'm calling you Gerard!

Just email me when ever you come down. I am in central fl now but I go down every couple weeks.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

Ok cool...and thank you. Hopefully next time I come it'll be a vacation and not work, accompanied by a couple of duds like last time. LOL!

oh, we are hooking up then..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

That is one of THE coolest W/C corns there is!

I hope you can prove it to be a simple recessive, or at least a linebred trait that can be inherited!...that is awesome!

I would be doing back-flips if I came upon that one man!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

At first I tought you wrote "het for Mami".....and my male mind went right to a Miami-based scantily-clad Latina......*almost posted a photo but I refrained*.......(someone made a post about a "flame in cypress" a couple months ago, referring to a flame brooksi kept on cypress mulch, but I went all-out on that one.....lmao....) -- HOWEVER, now that I re-read it I see that you scored pretty well given the contents of that tank. When I come out to Florida this fall I'm supposed to join up with Mr. Mongrel and perhaps you can show us around, ok Mr. Showoff? LOL!!!
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

i think they label the animal het stillwater hypo because it is a different hypo not compatible with the other hypo strain out there.....so i thiink its more so you know what hypo strain it is rather than its het for a locality.
rick

That is very likely though. I can see that being EXTREMELY useful as a matter of fact. Now by the same token, I am sure many people don't knowingly use it that way. It actually wasn't the greatest example that I used I guess compared to many others, like het for Okeetee, or het for Miami, either locality or phase. Either one would be bogus..LOL!

Anywho, I think everyone is on the same page there. ;}

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

by thinking to hard, hahahahaha

Hi Jimmy,

At one time, many many years ago, I produce hundreds of alterna, all manner and color phases. From striped ones, to all speckleds etc. All from line breeding.

Then some great conditions occurred and people found alterna in all these odd locals. What was funny was, they looked like the ones I produced. They would say, this looks like a FR animals etc.

Then while collecting Thayeri, you often found intermediate animals that again looked like crosses of different montane kings That was common.

Lastly, most people do not understand that we cannot make anything really new by breeding or crossing or hybridizing. All we can do is surface what already exsisted and is stored in their genes.

In other words, If its not stored as genetic memory, we cannot express it. So all the colors, patterns, combinations etc, had already exsisted long before we brought them out.

Remember, did all these colubrids evolve from a common ancestor?? Think about this and see if it makes your head hurt. It makes my head hurt.

I agree with alot of that. Line breeding related snakes, and especially sibling to sibling breedings bring all sorts of traits to the surface that would otherwise be blended into their wild genetic "melting pot" and never, ever seen whatsoever.

The "drop of dye" in the swimming pool thing..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

YES...has to be....biology is -that 2 species cannot be bred together....sub-species can ....so we breed a milk x king x bull x corn x thayeri x blairi....it has to be all common or it would at least be sterile......they all come from common ancestry probably......and they are not sterlile.......

and if you mix enough "species" together......the babies tend to look alike....you start getting banded browns and yellows......

........this talk been going on for 20 years now....
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........JY

Funny part is that according to most scientist types all of our CBB stock would be likely considered hybrid anyway, with the recent realignment of getula (and rat snakes too with how much obsoletus got changed).
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

Ultimately what makes a species, subspecies, or locality is subjective. Without genetic analysis there are often no clear answers. However, it goes without saying that within a species or a subspecies, there are locality differences in phenotypes. These differences are not regarded as important by traditional regulatory and conservation organizations, and these locality differences are considered worth preserving to a sector of herpetologists.

To me, there is no one definition of locality that can be applied to all species. For each species you have to consider how much gene flow occurs between populations. For example some snakes, like racers, cover large areas (miles) allowing dispersal of genes quickly over wide areas. Where as other species of snake never venture more than a few yards from their crack or hole. Some species are found widely dispersed over large areas of good habitat, while other species are found in isolated islands of habitat, with miles of unsuitable habitat between colonies. Things like a body of water, a mountain range, or even just a ridge line may provide a barrier to gene flow.

When we take these animals into captivity, we exert our own selective pressure that are different from the selective forces that created those species. There are however things we can do to mitigate this. First, when selecting holdbacks, don't pick out the "prettiest" ones!!! Select animals that most closely resemble the wild animals from that area. Another way is to select animals randomly. Many keepers unconsciously select for other traits such as feeding on mice. If your species of interest has a specialist diet, make sure to feed them what they are supposed to eat.

No matter what, after many generations (who knows how many) you will have caused inadvertent changes. This is why in situ conservation is paramount to captive breeding. Luckily studies have shown that wild fitness returns quickly in successive generations of released animals.

Best explanation I have heard!

When I began collecting my pyros I wanted snakes that looked like they had been just found under a rock, as wild looking as possible. This was to hopefully get vigorous stock, plus I am partial to the wild look.
maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=107540191085537189169.000475c9b8f64775ac393&t=h&z=5
Mostly Chiricahua range, some Santa Rita Mts. These are big areas not individual rock outcroppings! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

a nice, exceptionally thoughtful post, zach

Hey great answers to my questions and it seems we are all close to being on the same page. Thanks again for not twisting my mind to much on the situation.
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Jimmy Tintle