Reptile & Amphibian Forums

To what you were just talking about down further.

when I was perusing the Ratsnake forum and saw that nice looking Yellow Rat you posted (reposted below, hope you don't mind.Sorry, didn't see the later post were it had died) I went and looked at the Rat snake classifieds. It was interesting to see that finding a good plain old well defined striped good even colored normal Yellow Rat snake was not going to be easy to find. Lots of "Ghost",White sided and crossed with whatevers were available. I was suspicious of even the few ho-hum looking normal hatchlings that I saw. If I were to enjoy working with some grade A classic animals I'd like to be sure of the ability to continue a classic representative line for my self and friends.

I tend to appreciate classic looking animals more than morphs and never really saw the cool in hybryds but I'm not super passionate about it but I thought this observation was relevant to what you had been talking about below.

Normals are cool if you are new to them. But if you have been keeping them for a number of decades it gets boring. That is why pople move onto morphs and hybrids.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Does anyone interested in hybrids have, or know where I can get, detailed information on cross breeding kings with corns?

(l___l)
(='.'=)
("_("

I am not new to them. It's just been a lot of years since I've owned any. I would think anything "new" gets old in time too.
There is something to be said to sticking and persevering with the "plainer" traditional animals if it floats your boat.

One of the reasons why I really like my Scott Koonts Montgomery N.C. Animals.

Classic can have it's own subtle cool. Guess that's why some folks are into classic cars?

Oddly enough, While I'm not really into morphs, Amel Corns have been around so long in the hobby they are almost "classic" when I think about them. Most of us bred those as one of our first endeavours.

I guess I would also have to admit that the "classic" Creamsicle corn (emory/guttata) has been around so long it strikes me as a bit classic too these days. Oh well......

Creamsicles were one of the first popular man-made crosses, and seem to be pretty readily accepted, even today.

They are also the most likely sort of hybrid to create confusion. I've known several people who have crossed them back to corns, then sold the offspring as corns.

That's exactly how it works. And the crosses created this breeding season will be the one's creating confusion in the future as well. It's simple dynamics of how it actually works in this hobby. Nothing more, nothing less.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Spectacular Easterns there Bob!. As clean and vivid as it GETS brother!!...wow!

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I have Scott Kooonts to thank for that!

Yeah, well he certainly desrves some then..LOL!

THANKS SCOTT!!!...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

What you call a classic is one friggin beautiful snake in its own right.

There are millions of eastern kings that don't hold a candle to that animal.

In a sense, its a morph, a pretty morph.

This brushes up against a funny subject, who keeps the average or ugly normals??????

I am not sure anyone keeps and breeds the average phenotype from an average local. hahahahahahahahaha

But never mind any of that, thats a wow animal. thanks for posting it

And I think I see what you were getting at seeing it from
A different perspective. Lots of ways of looking at the same things huh? Food for thought.

I keep average looking locality specific kingsnakes. I like to research a particular species/subspecies to get a knowledge of their range of appearances at particular localities or regions and then duplicate them, as close as possible, in captivity.

Some localities tend to contain a high percentage of very good looking specimens, some contain mostly average to below average looking specimens and some contain a wide range of appearances.

I usually want the snakes I have to look like something that could have been found in the wild. Since there is such wide variation between and within localities there are plenty of options available that allow one to have and produce outstanding looking specimens while still being true to the average, or commonly seen, look of a particular locality.

To answer your question regarding average looking snakes from average looking localities. My Langtry graybands would qualify. I like all graybands and I keep a broad representation of the most of the main regions. From the east, Hwy. 277 for light Blair's and alterna with simple patterns and Langtry for medium Blair's with average orange. From the middle, Sanderson for highly variable yet simple, light and dark Blair's and alterna. From the west Davis Mountains for busy, speckled alterna with that unique brownish gray backround. I also keep Black Gaps. They are kinda from the middle of the US range but they have a more western feel to them and they are probably the most variable of all US localities. Plus they have hypo, anery and patternless specimens and I think it's interesting and amazing that all those mutations popped up at one locality.

I still need to get representations of the far southwest and far northwest parts of the range. Hopefully I can catch some River Rd. and Hueco Mtns. specimens someday, if the law regarding road collecting ever changes.

So I don't strictly keep average looking snakes just for the sake of their averageness but if it's a species/subspecies I like I do try to incorporate that look into my collection.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Again with the "they get boring". They dont get boring you just want to make money. I have nothing against Morphs. I work with over 10 species of albino turtles. However, I do not mix any species and I like both the albino and normal phase of every animal. I also have more normals than albinos. The problem to me is if I want a not het for anything brooks I cant get that from you, or a not blaze goini which is really hard to get now a days. You may lable your animals for what they are but most dont. I feel lucky to have WC Brooksi and this year hopefully some WC Goini. At least there are some people who still do this because they love it. Not just to make something more "valuable". Do your thing. Just do it in your section. I will say one last thing. I can see there value, as King Cobra food. Not one of my snakes is het for anything and im proud of that. Not that there are not some amazing looking morphs. They just aren't hybrids.

Now can we get back to the cool stuff everyone's been posting.

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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

Extremely well said!.............AGAIN!!

I have nothing to add to it...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Not too many people can say they have those these days. I probably have more than anyone right now. A little female that I collected in late February laid 6 good eggs a couple weeks ago, and I've got 2 more gravid.

Another one I found in February:

Awesome lookin one and I'm sure you have many more that look just as good if not better! BTW that female that I had emailed you about a month or so ago just dropped 6 eggs so I am really excited to see if what she is displaying is genetic or not, thanks again for your help!

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.

Yep, I've got a few nice ones, and a few "okay" ones. I'm real curious to see how my F1s hatch out looking compared to the lines that have been around for a couple decades.

...if you find a "brooksi" that's as light as this Hillsborough county FL king you photographed.....
or if you produce any like him...
heck, he was better than many so-called "brooks" offered these days....and I used to think he was fugly....
:Mark

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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Thats a sweet snake. My friend caught a pair in broward county that looked lie that one. How are the mole eggs cooking?
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

I have a few that are as light or lighter, like this one, but aren't as yellow and don't really have the same look:

And yeah, looking forward to see if those unusual females produce something different!

"Normals are cool if you are new to them. But if you have been keeping them for a number of decades it gets boring. That is why pople move onto morphs and hybrids"

HUHHH???......Newbies haven't been "keeping them for a number of decades" You are obviously speaking for yourself, and that you are bored with them. Unless of course it is something normal worth big bucks, in which case you would leave it alone until they became much more common in the hobby. And THEN you would cross/hybridize them to appeal to a totally different market to change venue for more sales.

Many don't "move on" to morphs and hybrids either. How can you "move on" to anything you have never had before, especially for "decades"?. I don't believe that for one second.

Most(but certainly not all)of these people are impulse buyers that are supplied with these crossed snakes from people that produce them to appeal to the masses that don't know any better, or care what they produce and distribute in the least.

I don't care about appealing to any type of specific snake market, I keep what I do, and breed what I do because I like them, not because I have to have a specific niche for sales. The sales of these snakes usually comes automatically without any any real emphasis on advertising them whatsoever. They basically sell themselves every single year actually. Most are spoken for long before the adults ever even breed, often from the year before.

I guess most of those folks just ejoy being "bored"..HAHAA!!

I don't seem to recall hybrid lovers beating mty door down for my animals though......weird..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

>>>I don't care about appealing to any type of specific snake market, I keep what I do, and breed what I do because I like them, not because I have to have a specific niche for sales. The sales of these snakes usually comes automatically without any any real emphasis on advertising them whatsoever. They basically sell themselves every single year actually. Most are spoken for long before the adults ever even breed, often from the year before. <

W O W its the EXACT same for me!!! wether locale, generic, or hybrid but ESPECIALLY so for my hybrids!
NOW THATS EERIE!

,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Yes, I'm sure you have a very well-educated and knowledgeable base of customers for everything you produce...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Beautiful yellow rat Bob,

I tend to agree with you, for the last couple of years, I have been drifting away from morphs back to classic looking animals. I have narrowed my king scope quite a bit from a decade ago. All I keep these days, as far as easterns are concerned are NJs, OBks and a few s. GAs (not classic in the typical sense, but classic to me as I refined that look many years ago). Anyway, I am more of an heirloom herp guy these days. I agree that some morphs are classics in their own right, such as the amel corns that you mentioned but many of the new morphs don't do a damn thing for me. I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing contest, but I haven't seen a recent morph of any species that I have any desire to work with. I know that people get jazzed by all of these different combos (especially in ball pythons), but honestly combining all of these different appearances just waters down the look of a great snake in my opinion. I do have many bp morphs and have bred them for years, but that scene is also getting way too convoluted for me. I find myself slowly backing away from those as well, with absolutely no desire to pick up the next "hot project".

Again, this is just the direction my tastes have been pushing me as of late. I look at your big, flawless yellow rat and think that there is no way that man's intervention can improve it. Very nice, thanks again.

Will

It was a beauty wasn't it!
I definitely see what you are talking about.

Well stated Will.

I have very similar tastes too. And do enjoy working with a few select morphs of certain things as well, but it certainly isn't always about how many different combinations that are thrown together either.

You have some sweet animals Will, and best of luck with them this season.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Hi Doug,

Sorry man, I didn't realize that awesome yellow rat belonged to you. I should read twice and respond once. Thank you for your kind words.

Its a shame that most herpers these days can't or don't appreciate such awesome natural specimens. Most would rather have a captive creation. While there is nothing wrong with that, and I am just as much at fault as the next guy for creating them, it is not the reason that you, myself or thousands of other old schoolers got into this. We are slowly losing something special in this hobby - the ability to appreciate a real, natural selection...like that ratsnake, or that Monty NC eastern, or a common freakin' boa.

It hit me like a giant $hit brick a couple of years ago, that I didn't resemble the herper that I started out as, and it wasn't a matter of progression, but a matter of sideways deviation. I have had a few times in my life that I looked in the mirror and didn't respect the image looking back and that point of realization was one of them. I've since been fortunate to recapture that initial drive and awe that I had as a kid, and I consider myself immeasurably lucky because of that. I hope these new guys are able to look beyond the glitter and glitz to appreciate such prizes as your yellow ratsnake. Take care buddy.

Will

Gosh Will,....I could relate to every single word you mentioned there my friend. Thanks for the kind words on the Yellow rat, and your post was one of the best ones I have read in a very long time.

Yes, when I started reading and owning snakes as a kid(1966-67), the word "morph" was never even used in any literature, much less a thought of my own. You and I began in times that only natural wild-caught snakes where ever photographed and studied, so then in turn we grew to appreciate those types we saw. Nothing more, nothing less.

Funny how things evolve. Some new things are very cool, but some things that are literally countless thousands of years can be even far cooler alot of the time.

great post man, I really enjoyed reading it..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I agree with you on the whole BP thing. It really ruined the traditional morph appeal. However tutles like this I will always love.

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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

That's a little porcelain or alabaster peice of art! LOL
Not my deal but I can certainly appreciate the beauty! Good luck with them. Impressive.

That's one cute little "walnut"..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I remember seeing albino stinkpots at reptile shows in the Tampa area 12-15 years ago. Doesn't seem like they ever took off.

They took off fine. It just something that you hold on to.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

Well said Will- same thing is happening in my collection. I just got an amazing pair of Everglades Ratsnakes... heck, I might not be able to give babies away at $15 BUT these things are just jaw dropping. Just picked up a group of TRUE/pure meansi... again, I doubt anyone would ever care or pay much for the babies BUT I enjoy having them around. I do breed alot of corn morphs- they pay the mouse bill for everything else- BUT believe it or not, my line of Okeetee corns (line bred of course...not Hunt Club stock) are my best sellers. After a while all the new morph combos start to look the same. I kinda drew the line when I began producing triple homo corpns that I could tell one morphs from another. Anyone can mix together genes like a cookbook recipe BUT line bred/refined normals are something that close to impossible to immitate...just my 2 cents.
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Same here Will.

GSC. Let's see the Everglades if you can post pics.

Heres a really nice one I got in september. My buddy in California has it now. It shed a bunch and is one of the nicest I seen out of one of my spots.

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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

this is also from september in the same spot and it is going to be sweet.

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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

nm

That is the type of critter that I am talkin' about Gerard. Any further manipulation (like throwing an amel gene in there) would only detract from it. Sweet, sweet snake!

Will

Out of town working- I'll try to get some pics when I get home. GeraldS has some beauties pictured below... Gotta love QUALITY animals...
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"BUT line bred/refined normals are something that close to impossible to immitate"

Very true Graham!, certain line-bred stuff can be as good as it gets. Those killer Scott Koonts getula that Bob S. posted above are great examples of this...

BTW, how's that cool Nogales/Santa Cruz king doing lately?. Did it breed to a similar-looking phenotype mate for you this season?

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Here's a pic of your male thin banded Nogales King breeding a SOLID BLACK wc king from the base of the Chiricahua Mtns. They were locked up SOLID for a long while. He's a great breeder- didn't even miss a beat when I picked them up for the photo (honestly I was goning to move him to a different cage with another female...I was hoping they'd break apart...lol- no luck...he didn't care).

He's doing very well!

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Wow!, he doesn't play games, does he?..LOL!

That is great Graham, and I'm glad he is doing well there and you get some nice offspring from those two buddy.

Give him a proud pat on the back for me whenever he finishes..

cheers, ~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

That's a neat pair. I hope you get babies.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

LOL...You hit the nail on the head Graham.....once you get to the point that there isn't any more pigment or pattern to mutate you always end up with a pink hatchling that turns white as an adult.....LOL

Kinda like when you mix a bunch of different colored paints.......You always get brown........ha!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

This is really beginning to happen in the cornsnake world. Alot of these corn morphs expressing 3-5 genes are getting harder and harder to tell apart (especially when they pop out of HET pairs). Once I got to a point where I wasn't 100% sure of "morph" I was producing I had a moment kinda like Will did... I've sold off a bunch of corns and sized back to less than a dozen corn projects (still means ~70 corns)... I began filling in the extra space with kings & rats........
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O.M.G.That's pretty great.You have more than 70 corns!!!!!!! What kinds and such ofcorns snakes?

I have some listed on my website: www.scexotics.com I think all in all it's about ~130 snakes lizards (Gilas, Beadeds, etc) and a few Turtles (Mexican Snappers)...I keep saying I'm going to downsize but everytime I give/sell/trade off a snake I end up getting another...lol- a vicious cycle.
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You just let me know when you want to get rid of those snapper.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

Thanks Bob,.. I'm glad you can appreciate that beautiful example. Yes, he was an extremely clean, vivid, classic example for sure. I had him for many years after I first captured him in my back yard in the outskirts of town in a very wooded area one April night. He was a very thin 40 incher that only weighed 97 grams at the time. It was obvious to me that he had a very tough existence out in the wild for some reason.

It wasn't long afterwards when I started to feed him that I immediately noticed why he was thin. He seemed to have a very clumsy strike response for some reason, and was likely what caused him to miss out on quite a few meals that he would have probably otherwise been able to dispatch. He was probably only surviving mostly on the abundant anoles that were in my area.

He ate rodents very well in my care since he didn't have to worry about catching the F/T rodents I offered..LOL!, so he grew like crazy and put on very good weight as well. He did great for many years afterwards too, and last weighed somewhere in the 750-800 gram range and was extremely healthy looking. I later captured a decent 5 foot locality female from the same area approx. 8 miles away inside a lady friend's house of my moms, and was then going to breed them that following spring. This female acclimated to captivity fabulously and snatched big F/T breeder mice out of my tongs like popcorn..LOL!

Not long after all this, the nice male's health went downhill like a rock for some un-known reason, and soon after the poor guy was found dead in his cage. I was pretty bummed by it, because I grew a bit attached to him over all those years and it was so nice to see how big and healthy he looked after his tough time out in the wild.

Anyway, after he died, with all the other animals and projects going, I really didn't see the need to hold onto the female forever trying to locate another nice locality-specific mate for her, so I let her go in the same area I captured her.

Anyway, thanks for the nice comments about him Bob. Certainly no big rarity, but he was certainly a fine Yellow Rat representative.

Oh!, and thanks Rainer for the great timing you used for your comments. Hard to figure that it was really that necessary to step in the very next post to add the hybrid issue.

Yeah......it certainly IS called "agenda", isn't it?

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I agree, when I saw that Yellow on Dougs site a while back, I quickly asked if he was breeding it, lol. I have some locally collected Yellows from here in Polk County, but they don't have that same Yellow color. I am working on some just for me mostly, I've always liked a good looking Yellow as well as the orange Everglades.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Yes. They have certain interesting look and feel to them to as opposed to kings and black rats I have worked with. I think the striping contrasts nicely with the banding and patterns we run into with our kings in our collections.

Wow. Very Nice. PERFECT (from what I can see) "Rat Snake Book" quality, example of a yellow rat. I love it. Thanks for posting it man!