Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Does anyone know the origin of White-Sided Black Rats (aka. Licorice Rats????)??? Are they natural or man-made???

Pat Glazener-Cooney

George Miskimmons had the first licorice, he named them...it was female...wild collected by a kid in MD, taken to school and given to his teacher for brown nose points,,,someone actually stole it...they announced to bring it back and no questions would be asked...it actually came back to the cage...George got it, mad ea deal with the teacher, raised it and took over 10 years to actually make a bunch of them and sell the first ones at the MARS show in Timonium a bunch of years ago....they sold for $500...not alot...but they are ratsnakes he said....the first female is dead now...she was HOT , nice black stripe with good blushings, and really nice and white sides...,,,there are alot of her offspring out there...and F2 F3 and so on....

so Yes,,, it was wild caught,,, and a baby....

have fun.
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........JY

Jeff, Thanks for the info! I've been tossin' around the idea of getting a pr. but I've also noticed alot of them with spotted sides.Some however have really clean sides! Jeff

this might also be of interest about the different whitesided phenotypes Jeff. I have the history's on alot of stuff to refer to later on. It is basically just as "JYoye" mentioned. Further below it mentions the different phenotype you mentioned, and then some.

Morph: White Sided Black Ratsnake
Other marketing names: Salt & pepper, Licorice Stick, WS
Genotype: ww.ww
Eyes: Grey with a dark ruby red pupil
Ventrals: White but may have a few brown markings

History: The first known White Sided Black Ratsnake was found in Maryland by a young school child. He gave the snake to his Biology teacher who in turn gave it to George Miskimon Jr. It was through the captive breeding efforts of Mr Miskimon that the White Sided Black Ratsnake entered the hobby. It has been rumoured that since then other wild caught Black Ratsnakes have been caught with this recessive mutation but we have been unable to verify this.

Appearance: The appearance of White Sided Black Ratsnakes is very variable (see notes below). The background colour is brilliant white. The ladder like pattern is contained within two dark doral stripes. No two scales have the same colour which gives it a mosiac appearance. Some coloured individual scales may be present along the sides. The overall colour scheme is black, grey and brown. The rostral scale is most often pure white. The head has a splattering of dark pigment and the tongue is red.

Notes:There are a couple of distinct looks to White Sided Black Ratsnakes but all are controlled by the same gene but achieved by selectively breeding.

Salt and Pepper is an extreme version these snakes have a completely white body with random individually coloured scales in shades of grey/black.

Vanishing Pattern White Sided as the names implies has a pattern that fades as it goes down the body towards the tail.

Another variation of White Sided Black Ratsnakes does not have the completely white sides, the white is more in random patches and the pattern is not contained within the dorsal stripes but extends down the sides.

Varieties and other morph combinations: Albino White Sided Black Ratsnake, Brindle White Sided Black Ratsnake
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Yes there seem to be different color variations , well, pattern too....the one with a good black stripe on top is my fav....I also had one of the speckled top ones with yellow dots in it also........I had 3....I got them from George yeaaaars later ...like ....2002 ? 2004....I kept them a year maybe year and half.....and they were sold...I didn't like the way they were ....they weren't HUGE blacks , healthy and fiesty like wild ones....now sure why....they just wouldn't grow the way they should.....

anyways.....they have been since bred to yellows, glades, and alot of other stuff.....which pretty much screwed the whole program up completely in my opinion....sorry, they were black rats...should have been kept black rats....

.....if you get some get a few and get them as young as possible....

good luck!!!!....

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........JY

"they have been since bred to yellows, glades, and alot of other stuff.....which pretty much screwed the whole program up completely in my opinion....sorry, they were black rats...should have been kept black rats"

ain't that ALWAYS the freakin case now days??....it's like everything else in this hobby..........it sickens me too. The same bunch of BS and bickering always being brought up by hybridizing/crossing advocates. Heck, countless feet of dumb-ass arguing hybrid threads on the "kingsnake" forum, when it should stay in the specific "hybrid" forum. Luckily for some of us Cindy S.(the moderator) had the decency to put it all where it belonged.

Same crap will inevitably happen to my 100% locality-specific moonshine morph/hypo greenish rats too once they become available and have been out there for just a while. It won't take long to muck them all up either by all these hobby shleps and their bright "Franken-snake" ideas and dreams of "cool name" labels for their stupid deli cups.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

"...George got it, mad ea deal with the teacher, raised it and took over 10 years to actually make a bunch of them and sell the first ones at the MARS show in Timonium a bunch of years ago....they sold for $500...not alot."

And look what they go for now! $30-$50
That statement says alot about so many species that have just become available. A couple of years back mandarins were few and comanded $400 for babies. $250 isn't uncommon now. Red mountain / bamboo rats were there too and are about $200 now.
Piedbald ball pythons couldn't be touched for und $4,000 now as they can be had for $1,200.
I guess the thing to do as a breeder is to stay on top of whats hot, new and few.
Anyone have a picture of that origional female? It would be interesting to see what they started as.
Everthing changes, here another example...
30 years ago yellow, really yellow rats were easy to find. Now they have everything else mixed in and the really screeming yellow ones are hard to find.
Mike.

pied balls can be had for $500....more and or less...LOL
spiders dropped from $12,000 to $2,000 in 2 1/2 years ....

yes...snakes are not the money makers some people want them to be.....

I waited 10 years to buy my first amel balls...and paid $2000 for them (BHB, they were running $2500 that year)...

I waited 10 years to buy my first ridleyi...and she gave me 10 good eggs so far her first year....so I'll make the money back, but not as much as the guy I got them from....

I am still waiting to buy coxi and lats and vallianti....LOL
(I actually have NO room to put them in....)
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........JY

So, is it safe to say that the pair of white sides I have are mutts??? They are 2010 youngins. The male is amel and the female is a normal. But both are hypos. They are excellent feeders and nasty as all get out (pretty typical Blk. Rat behavior). The markings down their backs are very light. hence the hypo designation. I wish I had the means to take a picture. So what do y'all think????

Pat G-C

"The male is amel and the female is a normal. But both are hypos"

hmmmm, not sure I understand what you meant there Pat, but they could easily still be authentic Black rat's, and not subspecific mutt's,....meaning man-made intergrade crosses from other subspecies that is. It really depends on what bloodline you acquired, and who kept what bred to what, know what I mean?. All those morph traits are certainly known to be in many genuine Black rats throughout the hobby, but those same genetic mutations are also in other subspecies as well.

Tough to say without doing some back-tracking on their family lineage.

Wish we could see them brother..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

My Bad!!!!! Of course the amel would be hypo!! The female ,compared to other White Side lines is extremely light. I was assured that they were straight White Sides, but since getting them I have come to suspect the seller. If they are Mutts, it's my own fault as I rarely purchase any thing from folks I don't know/trust. These were a spur of the moment, impulse, CHEAP buy!!!! I should have known better. So, anyone ever neuter/spay snakes?????

Pat G-C

Too funny Pat!!....HAHA!!

Like the old 70's "Tootsie-Pop" commercial,....the world may never know...LMAO!!

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

.....the licorice is black rat, amel black rats have been bred into them...red and white (T minus and T plus)...and hypos ...(chocolate brown)...I got a pair of hypos from George a few years back...I liked the chocolate brown color...the female didn't lay last year and then she up and died this year....didn't really matter...the year she did lay noone wanted them, they just ended up being put into the pet shop near here....so now I have a HUGE male chocolate rat....

George bred red and white amels into them....Sunrise and Sunsets he called them....they make all colors....

so you could have pure blacks....just breed them....

...have fun...
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........JY