Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A Bumblebee is a 2 gene animal that can pass on 2 genes.
A Killerbee can only pass on 2 genes.
So is the Killerbee considered a 2 or 3 gene animal?

I've had this conversation with many breeders: I say three. Pastel pastel spider.
That's three.
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www.strictlyballs.ca

3 gene. It carries 2 copies of the pastel and 1 copy of the spider.
Just because it can only pass on 2 genes doesn't make it NOT a 3 gene animal.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

It's have 3 allele (different than normal) and is has 2 different genes.

So it's a 2 gene combo. But who cares

I see the killerbee as a bumblee, other than you are sure you gonna have at least pastel in what ever you breed it to.
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love this world, don't hate it.

In pure genetics terms, outside of this industry, it would be a "2 gene" morph.

A gene is the single unit of heredity. Humans and Ball pythons have 2 copies of each gene, called an allele, only one of which they can pass on. For instance, sex chromosomes carry many of the same genes, but the X chromosome carries the female alleles of those genes and the Y chromosome carries the male alleles of those genes.

A Killerbee being a Super Pastel Spider means its genes would be expressed(as an example):
PP - Two Pastel alleles, which is dominant *relative to the normal gene (which would be a lower case "p"
Ss - One Spider allele, which is also dominant to normal, "s"

Therefore the animal is only carrying two morph genes, and two alleles of each gene.

However, that is not how most people here will interpret the terms "genes" and "alleles".
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Lincoln, NE
Ball Pythons - 0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals
Kingsnakes - 1.0 L. m. thayeri, 0.1 L. m. thayeri X L. alterna, 1.0 L. g. californiae
Other - 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 1.0 H. nascicus, ?.? Chrysemys picta, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

My example assumes Spider is a codominant gene. I haven't seen conclusive evidence for or against this theory, so I have no opinion on the status of the Spider gene's dominance relative to the Normal gene.
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Lincoln, NE
Ball Pythons - 0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals
Kingsnakes - 1.0 L. m. thayeri, 0.1 L. m. thayeri X L. alterna, 1.0 L. g. californiae
Other - 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 1.0 H. nascicus, ?.? Chrysemys picta, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

One could realy still make a point about it being a 3 gene or even a 4 gene snake, being that it has 2 copies PP (pastel) and 2 more copies, one S (spider) and one s (normal). Just because it can only pass on either a P (pastel) or an S (spider) doesnt make it a 2 gene animal.

Spider is not domiant over WT. They are both equally dominant.

Genes and alleles are two different things. Genes are the coin, alleles are the sides of the coin.

A Pastel is like having a quater with a face (Pastel allele) and a back (Normal allele).

A Super Pastel is like having an achilles heel coin with a face (Pastel allele) on both sides.

A Killerbee is like having two coins. One coin is an achilles heel with Pastel on both sides. The other coin has a Spider on one side and a Normal on the other.

At any given time only one side of these coins can be seen at one time, which is an analogy of inheritance: only one of the alleles from each gene can be passed on in a single gamete.

Whether Spider is dominant or recessive to Normal is immaterial for the most part. I haven't seen conclusive evidence of Dominance or Codominance either way, so I have no opinion on that. If you prefer, the example could be "Lesser" instead of "Spider" and the patterns of inheritance are the same. Or you could consider the "Spider" coin to also be an achilles heel (Homozygous Spider) any breeding of which would result in all Spider or Spider Combo offspring.

coldbloodaddict said it well also:
"...it’s a 2 gene morph, just with one gene being Homozygous…

Is an Albino 100% Het Axanthic a 3 gene animal???"

Since the above is often confused for opinion instead of genetics facts, here are some resources I have used in the past:
1) http://www.ndsu.edu/pubweb/~mcclean/plsc431/mendel/mendel1.htm
2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance
3) http://www.dartmouth.edu/~cbbc/courses/bio4/bio4-1997/01-Genetics.html
4) Lodish H, Berk A, Zipursky LS, Matsudaira P, Baltimore D, and Darnell J (2000). Molecular Cell Biology (4th ed.). New York: Scientific American Books.
5) Brooker, R. J. (2008). Genetics: Analysis and Principles. New York: McGraw-Hill Science/Engineering/Math.

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Lincoln, NE
Ball Pythons - 0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals
Kingsnakes - 1.0 L. m. thayeri, 0.1 L. m. thayeri X L. alterna, 1.0 L. g. californiae
Other - 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 1.0 H. nascicus, ?.? Chrysemys picta, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

That would have been my guess. I would assume it should be valued at a similar price of 3 gene animal, or a simple recessive/dominant combo. But as for actual genetics it would be two because pastel is like being het for super pastel.

IMO it’s a 2 gene morph, just with one gene being Homozygous…

Are Snows 4 gene morphs?

Is an Albino 100% Het Axanthic a 3 gene animal???

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Jon

Cold Blooded Addiction

That's one of the dumbest arguments that goes on. Is a killerbee a better animal if it's considered a 3 gene animal over a 2 gene?

Who cares how many mutated genes are in a BP, it only matters what it looks like and what it can produce.

I would say that a killer bee is better than a bumblebee even if it can't produce anything a bumblebee can't because of the improved odds (100% offspring getting pastel). And of course it looks better. Counting mutant alleles would be a way to quantify how a 3 mutant allele killer bee is better than a 2 mutant allele bumblebee but maybe not as good as a 4 mutant allele snow. Killer bee is still a 2 mutant gene animal so a little different than a 3 mutant allele 3 mutant gene animal like a pastel spider pinstripe (is that spinner blast? I stopped paying much attention to combo names after bumblebee and pewter).

I asked if a killerbee looks better by calling it a 3 gene animal over a 2 gene animal. Never said anything about a regular bumblebee.

It's dumb to argue over if it should be considered a 2 gene or 3 gene animal. Who cares if your counting the 3 mutated alleles or the 2 loci, it doesn't change what it is.

Sorry, I misunderstood and thought by 2 gene vs. 3 gene you meant two different animals. But even if that wasn't the example you had in mind my point was that we should count the extra mutant allele in a killer bee because although it doesn't make a difference in what it can produce it makes a difference in the offspring odds. Accurate terminology to name that difference will help when someone is comparing which animal to buy and how much extra a 3 mutant allele animal is worth to them compared to just 2 mutant alleles of the same 2 genes .

Well put Randy! I think you answered that to the fullest!

Here is a pic of that female Garcia I picked up from you. She is doing great! The boys are doing good as well but she just seems more photogenic

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Best regards,
AlanColesReptiles

Thanks, not bad for a 1 mutant allele animal.

It's a 3 GENE animal and a 2 MORPH animal.

pastel is 1 morph
super pastel is 1 morph
spider is 1 morph
bumble bee=pastel and spider=2 morphs
killerbee=super pastel and spider=2 morphs

Thats how I see it.

But you still came to the correct conclusion in that list.

>>It's a 3 GENE animal and a 2 MORPH animal.
>>
>>pastel is 1 morph
>>super pastel is 1 morph
>>spider is 1 morph
>>bumble bee=pastel and spider=2 morphs
>>killerbee=super pastel and spider=2 morphs
>>
>>Thats how I see it.
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Charles Glaspie
picasaweb.google.com/coldthumb