Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just recently started breeding rats. And thought about it after reading the thread "Breeding Concerns" I've heard of people swapping out their breeders. Is it necessary to swap out the males as well or only the females?

Thanks

Only if they stop producing with the new females. Generally males can go a lot longer, since breeding doesn't take as big a toll on their bodies.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

rats ....I kill the colonies off after 6 months breeding...just like my mice,african softs, gerbils, hamsters and Peromyscus.....all ....at times they go after 5 months and even at 7 months....if they are doing great,,,keep them going...

males CAN be bred for three terms let's say....but why keep big fat lazy males and get all new girls...might as well get all new to start with.....I have had male mice with colors I wanted...and have used the same male with 15 wives, then 15 of his own daughters then 15 of his own granddaughters....he was a long lived male....probably like chocolate pied roan merele or something........

.....usually rats are over fed and over cared for and get too fat, a fat rat will not give you 17 babies every 28 days....a fat rat will give you 7 babies when she darn well feels like it....so stick with the diet of lab block for better results...
(I have fat rats)...

cool...have fun......

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........JY

Where do you buy enough mice and rats to replace all your breeders every six months? If you go to a pet store that would cost a fortune! I am at the point of needing to replace breeders, but at a loss of where to obtain the animals for a price I can afford.

Susan
SSNAKES Reptiles

Holdback babies that you produce. That figure should always be thought of when you breed your rodents. In my "rat shed" I normally will set aside an entire rack as future breeders. I will not take any rats from given rack for feeders, it is future breeders only. They have their own grow out rack as well and eventually move to a "colony" tub. And thus the cycle starts again.
A breeder once stated that you should produce 30% more rats than what you need to feed your babies that way you will have extras for future breeders, or the occasional mishap.

Scott
Scottaustinreptiles.com

./................you keep your own babies as new stock.....????

I always have a tank for females to be used for new breeders...I know a guy that always has at least 1500 females on hand in a seperate barn by his home and 2 mice buildings...maybe at times 5000 females....

.......easy peezy.....been doing this for 21 years and before for years in the late 70's.......you have your own stock...IF you go and buy all new you will end up with stock that will not tolerate your environment alot of times...I cannot use lab mice or stock mice from the bigger guys around here...they hit my celler and die in 2 months...not all ,but over half....

....I run 56 tanks of mice with 1.15 in each to start...and I do not kill all 56 tanks at once...you kill off like 2 to 4 a eeek,,,sometimes none.....start over what's in need of being started over only....if they are doing good ,leave them be....if they are doing badly...they go...no matter what age....I have started new colonies over after 2 months of something goes wrong...

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........JY

I used Harlan 2018 rodent feed for years until close to two years ago when Harlan cut out many of us small reptile people. That's what I think started some strange happenings with my mice. I switched to Mazuri 5M30 rodent feed for rats and mice. I have probably 40-50 pans of mice....all the rest of the racks in my bldg are rats. I clean the whole bldg weekly, rats and mice have auto waterers and I feed them by hand each day. I have read posts here of a preservative in this Mazuri 5M30 feed that causes tumors and carcinogenic growth. Maybe that is what is going on. Others have suggested I should replace my population with new breeders, that I have too much inbreeding going on. I pull weaned mice weekely and I use those as new breeders or feeders. What I am seeing are mice with no tails, missing limbs and tumors. I don't see pinks and fuzzies without limbs or tails, so I am guessing that this happens later in development. Also, I often see mice begin to develope tumor-like growths that take over one or both front limbs and this either kills the animal or the limbs shrivel and drop off! Same seems to happen to back limbs because there are some with a missing back leg too.
Tumor occurrence is increased in both rats and mice. These are all reasons that lead me to believe I really do need a new
and unrelated breeding population of mice....and maybe new feed?
Any comments or suggestions are welcomed!

I would say try both. Mice and Rats have been domesticated for so long tumors are the name of the game, especially later in life and if they have been breeding regularly. However, what you described seems VERY extreme. "Typical" tumors should start as small hard nodules that just grow in size. The skin stretched over them may even split a little. What you have going on definitely sounds like something more, possibly environmental, but also possibly has a genetic component.

Including starting with new stock and a different brand of food, I would recommend checking out the materials of your building. The buckets their feed and water sit in, wires that could be shedding metal, any paints other than regular latex, etc. Materials that would almost never cause cancer in humans can have an elevated risk of cancer in domesticated rodents, especially if they are under constant exposure. Some materials can also cause birth defects, which would help explain missing limbs (even if they "lose" them later in life).

You might even want to consider raising a tub of rodents outside of your rodent room with different food as a control. It might help you pinpoint the genetic/food/environmental causes.

If you are doing some research, I think the preservative Mazuri uses that many people are suspicious of is ethoxyquin.
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Lincoln, NE
Ball Pythons - 0.1 Pastel, 1.0 Pastel het Pied, 0.1 Pied, 0.1 Cinn, 1.0 Black Pewter, 1.0 Woma (hidden gene?), 0.1 Yellowbelly
2.1 Normals
Kingsnakes - 1.0 L. m. thayeri, 0.1 L. m. thayeri X L. alterna, 1.0 L. g. californiae
Other - 0.1 Whitesided P. catenifer sayi, 1.0 H. nascicus, ?.? Chrysemys picta, 0.1 crazy cat, 1.0 husband

once mice hit 6 months of breeding they are getting old...old females start acting stupid and will want more proteins...so they will start to eat tails and feet off of babies....they also are old enough to start getting tumors and cysts....I have never seen a tumor get to the point that a leg fell off...but then again , as soon as I see a big enough tumor or cyst I take the mouse out and feed it off....I don't let them live and suffer with growths.....I sue dog food and corn...so I get tumors....

my mice have been inbred and outbred a little for 20 years here...there is enough bloodline in a colony that they aren't really inbred too much....as said...I will add new morphs or colors as I find them....I wish I could find cool mice more often....hint....

...my mice are over crowded and in a damp basement....they can take anything....almost....
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........JY

We've been from the same gene pool of mice and rats since 1994 without adding any new breeding stock (except for the wild mouse that got into a bin and bred one of our females. We now have brown and shiny black as well as white mice.) We've seen none of the problems you describe. Two things I see as possible: it could be environmental, but I doubt it. If it were it would probably be in your water, bedding or bins. More likely your stock is from a strain bred to develop certain kinds of tumors. I'd try getting new breeders from a different source and not interbreeding with your current stock. We feed a 50/50 mix of Mazuri 5M30 and 5M68. We've tried every other feed on the market and always come back to Mazuri, larger litters and litters. Also we replace older breeders with a pair raised up from each litter, never allowing the breeders to get old enough to burn out. Hope some of this helps.

i swap my males out, but only because they get big and eat more, and on occasion they start to bully. i dont have any BIG snakes. so big males go to the pet store for store credit. the bigger they are the lazier they are it seems. so swap them for younger more energetic males that eat less.....lol
adam jeffery
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" a.k.a. farfrumugen "
When I die, I want to go peacefully like my Grandfather did, in his sleep -- not screaming, like the passengers in his car.

Thanks for the comments and suggestions. I appreciate your
giving me some ideas and thoughts. I think I may try that Mazuri mix and I will be definitely be changing out some mice too!

Susan
SSNAKES