Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The three word summary is, more bad eggs.

For the life of me I don't understand this. The animals appear more healthy but they just aren't producing like they used to. In all honesty I think the real culprit here is that I've a greatly reduced interest in breeding colubrids because there just isn't a reachable market given the amount of effort I'm willing to put into selling them.

This ties into the second aspect, though my animals have more choices they don't have enough to successfully breed without some intervention on my part. Back in the day I knew which males were viable breeders, ~ when my females would ovulate, ~ when they would lay.... Now with so much of what they do on auto pilot I feel sort of out of touch with what is going on with them. Instead of getting all good eggs in a two week period I'm getting bad over a couple month period.

In any case I think two years in is enough time to arrive at a verdict on this choices thing and I vote thumbs down, at least for how I've gone about it.

If I were just keeping them as pets I'd say this is a far superior method but as a breeder, unless you're willing to go all the way and provide LOTS of choices and spend lots of time keeping on top of a very dynamic collection the cook book method is better. By better I mean more reliable and predictable results with a minimum of effort which in the end is just about me. If it were about the snakes I'd be protesting rattler round-ups and working to protect critical habitat but that's another story.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

What do you mean choices vs what you were doing before?

I house my snakes together year round and get 3 clucthes per femsles. I even get clucthes in Feb and I have eggs hatching in the same month. Which means they breed year round. Also by housing them and giving them a warm spot they thermoregulate themselves and choose cold when not digesting.

How is this different from what you are doing? Maybe you are not turning the hotspot down during winter? Do your snakes sit on the cold side when not digesting? Is you room cold enough during winter? If so, are you hitting them with a temp gun to see what temps they are when residing on the cold side?

There could be other resons you got bad eggs. It does not happen to me...At least not on a consistent basis such as yourself.

I just had a high end Florida king die. No reason or ill effects were shown. It was eating and breeding. Then one day while housed by itself, it was dead.

Just saying, sh!t happens! Soemtimes there is no explanation or reasonable cause. But the choices thing has worked much better for me 9and for sevral years) than doing the old skool way..
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www.Bluerosy.com

Does anyone interested in hybrids have, or know where I can get, detailed information on cross breeding kings with corns?

(l___l)
(='.'=)
("_("

I increased the thermal gradient by lowering the room temp and increasing the high end.

Used more natural substrate and provide multiple hides with varied temp and humidity conditions.

Not quite communal housing but housed as pairs.

More intensive feeding schedule.

No or limited hibernation period.

Per claims this would result in non seasonal breeding whenever females were in proper condition. Though I do get more eggs over a longer period of time fertility is in the basement.

I think the main thing that is missing is the thermal cycling of the males. They evidently aren't doing it naturally or I've not accommodated enough choice for them to do so. In any case I'm going back to a regimented (cook book) regime for my breeders. It works, provides predictable results and provides valuable information on the reproductive success of the males I used.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!

Interesting results. Thanks for posting about it.
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Genesis 1:1

In the end I think this will improve things but imo the notion that no snakes need or require hibernation is a misnomer. They may indeed not require it individually but as a group I feel like a hibernation period resets the the collective metabolic clock which facilitate more predictable breeding.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

...."but imo the notion that no snakes need or require hibernation is a misnomer. They may indeed not require it individually but as a group I feel like a hibernation period resets the the collective metabolic clock which facilitate more predictable breeding."

Very well said!!!!!!!!!!!
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Genesis 1:1

Sorry to hear of the duds Tony. I've had a few here and there but I expected some when a "main" breeder male passed and I used a very young male.....Overall I usually have some that do well one year and others do not....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Loss of a proven and reliable male is always a setback. I think one drawback to a communal setting is that unless you're there to observe the behavior you might not know which male is getting the job done. Even if you observe that one is dominant you still can't be 100% sure he's the one responsible for fertilization.

The thing is the snakes do seem to be "happier" when kept together. I'm contemplating keeping them as same sex pairs and controlling when mating pairs are introduced. This way I would get some benefit of communal housing and retain the capacity to gauge the performance of individual pairs. Don't really see how that can go wrong.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

"Don't really see how that can go wrong"
knock on wood or somethin' Tony!
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

>>... I'm contemplating keeping them as same sex pairs... Don't really see how that can go wrong.

I cheer anyone's efforts to learn more about our critters by experimenting, Tony. But I can't help remembering that the first-ever anerythristic (hypoerythristic) honduran milksnake was killed by her cagemates--a group of females being kept together prior to breeding.

That indeed does happen from time to time but I've never had a problem keeping kings and milks together that are of similar size and at least a year old. I have however always separated them during feeding. Not sure if that's necessary but its certainly prudent.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sorry to see things not working out as well as you'd hoped.

I wouldn't say that. I've learned a lot and during a time when production is pretty much a moot point. The name of the game IMHO is to keep the snakes healthy. In that regard many aspects have improved drastically. I just feel that given the limitations my setups impose a forced hibernation period is required to get these animals cycling together.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>I wouldn't say that. I've learned a lot and during a time when production is pretty much a moot point. The name of the game IMHO is to keep the snakes healthy. In that regard many aspects have improved drastically. I just feel that given the limitations my setups impose a forced hibernation period is required to get these animals cycling together.
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>>�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson
>>
>>WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony....
I have been trying this "choices/options" thing too, but I do force a brumation period......
I have seen "good" results but not great results as far as lots of fertile eggs.......I think I actually need to provide a longer/colder brumation for better fertility.....

It does depend on your geographical location and the types of animals you are working with......I don't think a bunch of Florida kings really need much of a conservation period....But Mexicana and Montane kings do.......More than I can provide with South Texas Winters.......So I have no other choice but to force them into a dark, cold brumation chamber........

I can get thayeri and mex mex to breed, but I am still having some fertility problems with Ruthveni and Pyromelana.......Thus the my idea of a colder/longer brumation period as well as keeping it in the low 70s to high 60s during breeding and egg laying (Spring?).........I still think heat will kill the male's sperm even when in a female's ovum.........

So these adjustments will commence around October.......And we'll try it again next year.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hi John,
Years ago I tried ruthveni in vain. They were all big and healthy, just no production. I live in a warm climate. Not very conducive to keeping montane kings.

Then out of frustration I left them in brumation longer. Not colder, just longer, all the way until mid March. And darned if I didn't get eggs.

Might want to consider that.
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Mark

I brumated my snakes for only 45 days this year, and my large proven brooks have given me 5 good eggs each. I will definately cool them longer next year! The corns snakes seem to be doing just fine with one or two exeptions.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

John my results are based on thayeri and temporalis. proven breeders all.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>John my results are based on thayeri and temporalis. proven breeders all.
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See....for me they would certainly get a cold, dark room from October to March...........there is no way I can rely on Corpus Christi weather to provide a suitable brumation for either of those species.........

I bet if you were working with getula, corns or pits you would have gotten fertile eggs.........just a hunch though.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John my results are based on thayeri and temporalis. proven breeders all.
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See....for me they would certainly get a cold, dark room from October to March...........there is no way I can rely on Corpus Christi weather to provide a suitable brumation for either of those species.........

I bet if you were working with getula, corns or pits you would have gotten fertile eggs.........just a hunch though.........

YEP!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Does anyone interested in hybrids have, or know where I can get, detailed information on cross breeding kings with corns?

(l___l)
(='.'=)
("_("

The hypothesis was that given choices and proper support hibernation is not needed. My test, if only by virtue of the species I picked to use, prove this to be untrue across the board which was pretty much the only statement I wanted to make.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>The hypothesis was that given choices and proper support hibernation is not needed. My test, if only by virtue of the species I picked to use, prove this to be untrue across the board which was pretty much the only statement I wanted to make.
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>>�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson
>>
>>WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

i am quite impressed with your efforts. congratulations.

i do have a suggestion/thought...as your current colony has been raised in an environment where they have a brumation period it is possible their select physiology has adapted to that life cycle. switching to the choice method may not provide the stimulus they are accustomed to to provide cues/stimulate hormones to breed successfully. i am thinking that possibly if you raised hatchlings in the "choice method" from day one that their physiology would adapt to that environment and be successful breeders without brumation.
while i think that there are some environmental cues to breeding reptiles, i also think that the animals are plastic/malleable and can do things the way you want, within reason if started that way. while i never even tried species like temporalis i never really had trouble breeding other southeast/southwestern species up here in the "arctic".

i appreciate the update and reading about the thought process. hope you find something that works!

daveb

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

Dave I have a trio of thayeri I'm raising communally and completely on the choice method to answer just that question. my bet is that it will not work.

This isn't a dig on the choice method just that it doesn't have universal application. Different species perform differently all by themselves. Add in setup variables and regional climate variations and you have a situation that is widely different from what these animals have been programed to do over millennia.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>Dave I have a trio of thayeri I'm raising communally and completely on the choice method to answer just that question. my bet is that it will not work.
>>
>>This isn't a dig on the choice method just that it doesn't have universal application. Different species perform differently all by themselves. Add in setup variables and regional climate variations and you have a situation that is widely different from what these animals have been programed to do over millennia.
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>>�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson
>>
>>WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Appreciate the info. Must be frustrating.

I was an early proponent of choices. That method worked very well for Cal kings and various Mexico locality milksnakes. But those snakes are easy. Not nearly as temperamental as what you work with. I don't think you can stop a Cal king from producing.

From your posts I realize that I shouldn't assume what works for one type of snake is therefore gospel for all snakes, especially snakes that come from cold Winter climates.
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Mark

Mark there are entirely too many variable from collection to collection to make any real general statements.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Naw, your wrong, you have several problems, the big one is losing interest, thats a big killer. I surely know about that.

You just are not "there" at the right time or feed that extra time, etc.

Infertiles, have some base causes, prolonged warm is one of them. All that means is, you may be offering choices, just not good ones. The method of free choice is based on cool, not hot.

They live in cool and use heat by need. If they cannot get to cool. Infertility is commonplace. So is flageletes, etc.

All in all, losing interest is a real killer. In a nutshell, what I want to breed, breeds well, others, not so much.

My opinion, with you, its not about method, its about time. You spend to much time doing this, time to move on to something that blows your drawers up. You know, gets you all excited. Good luck

They have more cool than hot but you are right, the loss of interest in producing animals I would not be able to responsibly move is a HUGE factor. My garden on the other hand is rockin!! Cheers Frank.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I reread your response Frank and wanted to add a little more.

The thermal gradient was increased first by decreasing ambient room temp. This naturally fluctuates by what the outside weather is and time of day but we're looking at DTH in the low 70s and NTL in the high 60s in the summer with corresponding 10 degree drops over the winter.

The gap was widened on the hot side by turning up the therm however, so as not to induce a higher temp in the cage I reduced the amount of area subject to belly heat. To get the really hot spot I went to a single strand of heat cable along the back side of the cage. For half of this length I buried piece of ceramic tile that would absorb the heat and distribute a lower temp over a wider area. In so doing about ~60-70% of the cage was at ambient 30 - 40 at warm and a scant 10% at hot.

To this I added a natural substrate to a depth that would allow borrowing and hold a level of humidity at depth but remain more dry on the surface where multiple hides where also placed.

My room has a window which allows natural light cycles which were not interfered with or augmented other than to facilitate working after hours.

My take is that for the two species I worked with (thayeri and temporalis)one or both of two detracting conditions prevailed. 1) the cool wasn't cool enough and or 2) the snakes failed to make the the necessary choices in sync with each other.

I further believe that for most wild populations of temperate snakes winter indeed acts as a synchronizing event. This would certainly explain the seasonal appearance of moving males, gravid females, nests and neonates.

Through diligent observation one may be able to forgo such a synchronizing event in breeding captive animals and create a non seasonal situation but this is not the norm given the animal's biology. In my view the cookbook method that requires a forced hibernation is no different that what mother nature imposes when the days shorten and is more natural.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, sorry for your unproductive season(s). I can feel for you on the "more fertile eggs" statement. I have been having a horrible year as well, and changed my husbandry quite a bit this year. Whether the outcome is a direct link to some or all changes only time will tell. Here's a few things I changed.

1. went from belly heat to back heat

a) to give a wider temp. gradient
b) built new racks
2. Kept ambient room temp in the low 70's

a) to give a wider temp gradient ( 73-90)
b) Keep males cooler in breeding season ( 73-82 respectfully)

3. Split cage into dry side and moist side

4. Offered food more regularly

a) every 2-3 vs. 5-7

5. Offered females slightly smaller prey more often.

6. Did not put snakes in total darkness for cooling period. Left normal west central FL light cycle.

7. Kept ambient and cage humidity down 25-40%. Not till the last month or so.

With all these changes it is hard to determine what was is the cause of infertile eggs but I am sure to keep records of everything so maybe I can pin point a direct answer later on down the road. I will go to a forced cooling as usual but as stated earlier I will be cooling most of my montane species for 4 months this year minimum. The range will also be slightly cooler at 48 - 55. (Hopefully, as WC FL. can stay quite warm during winter months. I will also keep humidity more towards 20-30%. Just some of the husbandry that I will be keeping track of.

Different strokes for different folks. The same goes for snakes of different species. Good Luck next year!
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Jimmy Tintle

>>>If I were just keeping them as pets I'd say this is a far superior method but as a breeder, unless you're willing to go all the way and provide LOTS of choices and spend lots of time keeping on top of a very dynamic collection the cook book method is better. By better I mean more reliable and predictable results with a minimum of effort which in the end is just about me.

song sung blue WOW thats some sad $#!* tony
ive always viewed my breeders AS my pets! choices work for me and my snakes.
reliable, predictable results with minimal effort... yeah sorry man but thats just sad.

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Tom I'm not knocking what anyone else does just reporting my results. If you wish to view that in a negative light that's your issue not mine.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I'm not knocking what anyone else does just reporting my results. If you wish to view that in a negative light that's your issue not mine.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

no negative light issues here dude, im sorry you got bad eggs. i strongly feel if anyone is gonna own a snake they should care for it and nurture it to the best of their ability. and imho the best way to do that is to offer choices the more and the bigger temp gradient,humidity gradients the better.
i will try and clarify, when it becomes about EASY RELIABLE CONSISTANT MINIMUL EFFORT ETC. its not about the snakes anymore and thats what i think is sad not neccasarily negative just sad.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

It stopped being about the snakes the moment we put them in cages. Your distinction is nonexistent.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

It stopped being about the snakes the moment we put them in cages. Your distinction is nonexistent.
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�Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.� Emmerson

yeah keeping a snake for reliable and predictable results with a minimum of effort is just sad anyway you cut it tony. all im saying is as keepers we should strive to provide the best husbandry possible for the snakes and this includes choices.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

What is sad is promoting a method without sharing specifics.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

i agree i promote choices as many as possible... the more the better.

,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com