Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This was a good topic for the forum, but it seems that a couple of you took it as a chance to say slanderous things about the seller, as I have seen you do many times in the past. It seems to me that the seller DID in fact label the snake as het. albino. Not to mention that the buyer was not displeased at all. The forums are not supposed to be for personal complaining about any one individual (possibly in the general forum), but even there, discretion should be used. If you had a bad purchase, that is one thing, but just because someone is not liked by you, keep it to yourself and spare the rest of us the hassle of passing over your posts. Do not try to persuade others to dislike someone that you do not like. I have been following the hognose forum for some time now and have noticed that when a certain name comes up, a small few of you take the chance to say as much derogatory remarks as possible to sway others into not liking this individual. Get a life and leave his alone!

As for the topic of disclosing genetics, it is always good to label them as accurately as possible, but not always possible. Take for example corn snakes. Many have an uncountable amount of genetics and only a few are listed in any given animals "title" having up to dozens of hidden genes! If it is important to the buyer, they should ask very specific questions about any possible genetics.

Regardless who the seller is it is the sellers responsibility to state the genetics period. There is no excuse for not doing so with maybe the exception of the seller having an animal that he or she does not know the true genetics themselves.Like I said it is the responsibility, whether its the person you are talking about,me or anyone else in this forum, to disclose all genetics that they are aware of period.

Hi I don't post on this forum because i am a breeder of Gila Monsters and Beaded Lizards. I could see the buyer being upset if he received something worth less that he paid, but in this case he received something worth more than he expected. That is like me selling 1.1 Gilas and a guy getting 0.2 I have had this happen to me and was pleasantly surprised. Now the issue here is was someone trying to be dishonest for personal gain ? No.
I have known Justin Mitchum for over fifteen years and he has always been honest and straight forward with me. From what i can see he has the nicest Hognose snakes on the planet.
Thank you
Steve Angeli

HorridumAngeli's Heloderma Web site

Hey steve usuallyI like I said in my previous post stay out of or like to anyways,,this bickering and bullcrap. Now I am neutral in this little debate seeing how I am friends with both party's makes an advantage for me to speak up for both side of the street. And get this topic back on track instead of another "justin is horrabke thread". Which is not the point of this one. Just seems to turn into that easily when Justin is involved. 
I for one would be absolutely stoked if I was Ian and got hooked up on an animal worth more then I paid for especially seeing how it was a ground breaking amazing animal produced. For that I personally would be stoked and obviously Ian is as well. that was what he was aiming for with that project and was just given huge boost On it thanks to who?? Justin.  He is not complaining about it and that imparticular animal is not really the topic just the match for the fire. 
Now on the other side of the street there are multiple readons for the real topic or origional post.  Some people are difrent and want to work on projects that don't have "X" genetic. do I think it is the responsibility of the buyer to ask for genetic info? No.  That should be disclosed at least as a citrusy so you have a lead for said project and or a direction to follow. But,, I know that even for me and I'm a genetic nut job for combos and new morphs and adding as many genetics to said animal as I can make exceptions to the rules also.  
when I work on my ghost anaconda project I don't want to have amel genetic in it. I would like to add them later after part A- is complete. ThAt means that i have to be willing to accept the fact that I may get pastel pinks out of it and take the time to work it out or add it in whith out wanting it. The reason I know this is because it is and has been since day one been disclosed that the pastel pink gene is possibly there.  some people are a bit more anal about it and want nothing as they like to start from ground zero. 
Next post--
-----
**Joe Schmidt-
3rdroomreptiles.com

We all also even though it is inevitable don't want hognose to turn into a genetic cluster * of random genetics. Where you can breed two random normals and produce every morph under the sun. 
We as founding breeders have a sort of responsibility to keep the genes as pure and straight for as long as we can.  Not a single person questions the fact that Justin has amazing snakes with a nice diverse genetic collection. 
The topic is this- accurately disclosing genetics. Let's leave what's done done and stop this crap. It's hatchling season and this place should be fun right now. This even though entertaining to some degree is definatly not as cool as it could be. I want to see pics and have convos like this one with out the crap that makes us all look stupid and childish when it turns into this mess. 

-----
**Joe Schmidt-
3rdroomreptiles.com

fantastic clutch joe!!
-----
Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

-----
**Joe Schmidt-
3rdroomreptiles.com

Nothing slanderous was said from me nor did I mention any names and in fact the post stated, that started this whole thread, extreme red het albino bred to anaconda (no hets) is proof that it WAS not labeled. And yes no complaints from the purchaser and yes it is a pleasant surprise to have something like that hatch out but the fact is all breeders should disclose ALL genetics whether they are poss or not.

I never mentioned names or pointed fingers either. I simply tried to get a conversation started about an issue I am concerned about.
But yes, the albino conda post is what prompted me do start my thread. It wasn't directed at Justin though. I have had these concerns for years and have personally had projects negatively affected by people that weren't honest, or omitted information about the genetics of animals I purchased. I feel that he brought on some of the negativity himself by his response. He said its the buyers responsibility to ask about genetics, and he didn't pick up any supporters with that statement for obvious reasons.

You just gave a prime example of what I'm afraid of. I don't want the hognose to become another "corn snake". The boa and ball python guys seem to keep it pretty straight, so I'm sure we can as well.
-----
Ultimate Hognose

If someone is buying a animal they intend to use for breeding purposes they should research and ask as many questions as possible. Plain and simple, what it's feeding on, history ,parent info etc.. And yes I agree the seller should volunteer as much info as he has. But to be safe , if it is that important to the buyer he should ask questions as well. Never assume.
I offer genetic certificates if there is any need for documentation. Thats better than most, if I or Ian made a communication mistake so what..humans do that from time to time. at least it was a beneficial mistake to him and the hobby and Ian isnt complaining is he??
The seller cannot always know what the buyer expects or needs.Very few if any breeders here list the complete genetic history of there animals in fact I believe many probably dont even know the point of origin on there lines other than maybe the breeder they got them from.

For example those who sell pastel pinks and hypos from the lazik line stand a slight chance of caring the other gene.. but I dont see many people giving this info.
I see adds on KS now that neglect to give that info.
Anaconda's are ALL definitely proven possible het pink, but when advertised I havnt seen anyone posting that info!!
Even you Micheal have an add up RIGHT NOW BRO labeled 50% possible het albino..but what about possible het pink as well?
So what do you have to say about that??

So what about locality Data...for Example what is the original locality of the female that produced the 1st conda..

That very important info.
That's never been disclosed...locality has huge influence on genetics like color, size, etc..
But that is a closely guarded secret!!
WHY??
If you need pure blood best way, only way is to either collect your own specimen, or buy from locality animals that are well documented.
That easy. And then all those question and worries and conspiracies can be safely discarded out the window!!
Hope that helps!!
-----
Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com

Thanks for the post guys!!
-----
Justin Mitcham
ExtremeHogs.com