Reptile & Amphibian Forums

F2 l.g.nigrita X l.g.floridana

more pics comin soon!
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Cool.....do you think the melanism that mbks exhibit is a recessive trait?
I've often thought it may be......especially when crossed with another getula.....

Share the pics when they all emerge as I'm interested as to what they will look like.........
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

>>>Cool.....do you think the melanism that mbks exhibit is a recessive trait?

i absolutely do. ive never bought into nigrita i mean its just a melanistic splendida... did someone say, margarita?splendida?nigrita? anywhoo im a BIG lumper so... i will post pics soon, so far a few axanthic(blue) looking and at least one ws!...
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>i absolutely do. ive never bought into nigrita i mean its just a melanistic splendida...

I tend to agree but I wonder why taxonomist are wanting to lump nigrita with californiae when they are splendida.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Huh?! What does all that what you just said mean?! Please say something back .A.S.A.P.!!!!

Thomas, I'm sure you are more well versed on genetics than I am but since some of those offspring are just as dark as a MBK, doesn't that prove it is not a recessive melanistic trait? Maybe at the very least its a co dominate trait, or maybe the MBK is not melanistic and more like a Black Pine and Black Milk that darkens with age for some reason. Black Milks and Pines are considered subspecies like MBK's and darken up with age just like them. There is no other Melanistic kingsnake morph I know of that darkens with age like that, they are born dark. Those are just my observations. Recent genetic work also suggests splendida is separate from nigrita. Not only different subspecies but different species. I don't know a thing about DNA work to agree with it or not, but it seems that would be too big of a mistake to make if nigrita was just a melanistic splendida. What do you think?

He mentioned in another post that these were F2s, which would go right along with it being a recessive trait. I don't know if the genetics are that simple though.

There is a recessive melanistic morph found in thayeri.

He mentioned in another post that these were F2s, which would go right along with it being a recessive trait. I don't know if the genetics are that simple though.
Hi there foxturtle, you're absolutely right. I read into that wrong. I know what f2 is, I should have recognized that.

There is a recessive melanistic morph found in thayeri.
What I was saying is there is no other recessive kingsnake trait, that I know of, that is called melanistic with the young showing pattern and gradually darkening with age. It probably doesn't matter anyway. Just an observation. BTW, I'm not even sure if melanistic thayeri start off patterned. I'm under the impression they are already born solid black.

I think this is a product of the pet trade, in the early days of MBK's, most hatchlings were patterned and turned dark with age.

But in order to SELL them as MBK's the trade selectively bred them to start out black. Ask JR about that. Cheers

>>I think this is a product of the pet trade, in the early days of MBK's, most hatchlings were patterned and turned dark with age.
>>
>> But in order to SELL them as MBK's the trade selectively bred them to start out black. Ask JR about that. Cheers

I remeber the MBK's of the 80's and 90's and it was hard to find a hatchling that was all black. Most looked like splendidas then would loose their pattern as they got older. Most if I remember would keep a white patch on the anal plate?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

hi ross,

>>>I'm sure you are more well versed on genetics than I am but since some of those offspring are just as dark as a MBK, doesn't that prove it is not a recessive melanistic trait? Maybe at the very least its a co dominate trait, or maybe the MBK is not melanistic and more like a Black Pine and Black Milk that darkens with age for some reason. Black Milks and Pines are considered subspecies like MBK's and darken up with age just like them. There is no other Melanistic kingsnake morph I know of that darkens with age like that, they are born dark. Those are just my observations.

>some are as black as any mbk but being 50/50's who knows how they will turn out. ive seen mbk that looked like splendidas as babies and turned solid black as an adult, im not gonna say its one or the other (recc./co-dom) just yet, time and more breedings will tell.

>>>Recent genetic work also suggests splendida is separate from nigrita. Not only different subspecies but different species. I don't know a thing about DNA work to agree with it or not, but it seems that would be too big of a mistake to make if nigrita was just a melanistic splendida. What do you think?

>well i dont know a thing about DNA either as far as classification goes IMHO taxonimist must justify thier work(funds) somehow this class and reclass BS is just like a road construction crew just do enough so's ya gotta come back and "fix" it, again and again and again. as for me ive worked with enough getula over the years to have/develope my own opinion which is there are 3 classes/ssp. of getula.
western...incl. cali,conjuncta, nitida, yumensis,etc.
the central... incl. nigrita,splendida,holbrooki, nigra, etc.
the eastern... fla,chain,goini,obk, etc.
but im a big lumper when it comes to taxonomy and classification in general. i feel the same way about hybrids breed a snake to a snake and get a snake thats NOT a hybrid breed a snake to a lizard or a turtle and THATS a hybrid!
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>well i dont know a thing about DNA either as far as classification goes IMHO taxonimist must justify thier work(funds) somehow this class and reclass BS is just like a road construction crew just do enough so's ya gotta come back and "fix" it, again and again and again.
hahahaha Yeah, that could be the case. I've heard the same type of thing said many times by other herpers.

as for me ive worked with enough getula over the years to have/develope my own opinion which is there are 3 classes/ssp. of getula.
western...incl. cali,conjuncta, nitida, yumensis,etc.
the central... incl. nigrita,splendida,holbrooki, nigra, etc.
the eastern... fla,chain,goini,obk, etc.
I see it the same way too. And you are right about it taking more time to figure out exactly if the black in the MBK is recessive/co dom or not. I'm just wondering if that whitesided you got will darken up top like a MBK. Keep us posted.

This is a case of researching the research.

You mention recent work. You really should look at what animals they are comparing.

If you take an eastern, say Constock or east, splendida, and compare it to a MBK from Ortiz, from near the gulf. The genetics indeed would be closer to eastern cal kings.

The problem is, in Ortiz and most other locals where MBK's are found, there is also typical splendida, how does the genetics relate to those found in the same area, or those from the same clutch.

In the early days it was common to hatch both types from one clutch, much like alterna phase and blari phase from a wild caught female.

I hope you understand that. A wild gravid alterna from the river road, will throw all alterna, but one off juno rd, can throw both and more.

Most locals of MBK's are splendida when hatched and others are black when hatched, some clutches contain both.

In So. az. where I live, we have MBK's, in a few locals along the border(if they are not all cooked by now) and we have dark melinistic yuma kings and splendida types in the raparian areas around tucson.

These different types of black kings are different. So whom is more related to whom.

It appears to me, the problem is, those lab guys want to spend time in the lab. And not in the field actually looking whats there, then testing that to make some real sense.

What they do is test stuff to say, what they want to say. They just play witht the pieces. Yes, they are playing within the rules. They make up the rules, So they can do that.

But does that really help. I want to know what the splendida that are found in the same area, the same clutch as MBK's related to, eastern splendida or cal kings. Hmmmmmmmm Cal kings are less then a hundred miles away. And central texas splendida are five or more hundred miles away. WHAT DID THEY TEST??????????? That is the question. The next best question is, why did they do what they did.

I would think an east texas splendida is closer to a speckled king then a central Az splendida is. Wanta bet?

I don't know about that but I wonder what a pure blooded BULL SNAKE crossbred to a CORN SNAKE would look like and what is a mkb? Please say something back to me A.S.A.P.?!!!!

>>I don't know about that but I wonder what a pure blooded BULL SNAKE crossbred to a CORN SNAKE would look like and what is a mkb? Please say something back to me A.S.A.P.?!!!!

Turbocorn and Mexican black king
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John you are a saint! lol you have a lot of patience haha

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.

>>John you are a saint! lol you have a lot of patience haha
>>
>>Jeremy Thompson
>>Captive Born Investments Inc.

I know.....I know......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

will you please show me some pitures of it now A.S.A.P.!!!

>>will you please show me some pitures of it now A.S.A.P.!!!

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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

King Cobra Food.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"Stupid people do stupid things. Smart people out smart each other and then themselfs" System

yeah, Davis enjoys producing King Cobra food for some reason. I guess somebody has to do it..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

SIGH*
oh geez... nevermind
SAD
,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"King Cobra Food."

That's funny!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

harharhar it is funny huh???
so which side jorge divider or uniter?(im pretty sure i know the answer but id like to give you the benefit of the doubt).
realize you dont have to agree w/hybrids or crosses to be on either side but, you must pick a side. you either are for the hobby and ALL herp keepers&breeders and ALL herps! OR your for puttin up walls its really just that simple. i mean really lets be chrystal clear. i know which side im on.
btw i checked out your site and listen to some of your pickin maybe i will bring my guitar to daytona for an impromtu jam session funny how ALOT of musicians are herpers huh?

,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Actually Thomas I have tried to stay out of the Hybrid debates. I have mixed feelings. My collection is not hybrid free either so I can't throw any stones. My real problem with a hybrid project like the one you mentioned with the MBK and te WS florida is all the in between animals that will be produced before you get your target animal. I have done it before and I know some animals will look enough like Floridana that they may be easily mistaken as Floridana, and some will look so much like Nigritus that they may be mistaken for that. If you could breed a Nigritus and a WS Florida and gett instant WS black snakes, then there would not be so much baggage that gets created in the process. I do enjoy a great looking snake even if it's a hybrid, but then I can also appreciate the opinion of those who don't want to continue to muddy the waters of the hobby in general. So here I sit with the fence chaffing my cheeks, lol!

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>>I have done it before and I know some animals will look enough like Floridana that they may be easily mistaken as Floridana, and some will look so much like Nigritus that they may be mistaken for that.

really, you have? id like to see the pics, otherwise i dont believe it, anyone can SAY they have done it. what happened to your group? how far did you go F1 F2 F3???
mistaken for? W O W mistaken for what exactly?!?
ok well they are true/pure getula just diff. phenotypes/ssp.
even F1 50/50's dont resemble either parent phenotype enough to be mistaken. when i breed the F2's to true mbk for F3 they will be 75/25 then the F4's will be as true as any other mbk as the floidana phenotype will be ABSORBED. its HOW recessive mutations are passed along. i remember in the early 80's when the first amel getula came out they were calikings and they were HIDOLLAR then 3-5 yrs. later amels starting popping up in ALL the getula ssp....coincidence? same thing happened w/corns there are now amels in most all rats from emory's to obsoleta. i produce "pet" snakes and the simple fact is pretty sells better, if someone wants to breed true natural phenotypes/ssp. i say GO FOR IT! i breed a few of those myself but i would advise anyone wanting to breed true blue untainted phenotype/ssp. to seek those out from trustworthy sources/breeders and ask ALOT of questions about the parents and lineage and/or catch them themselves, but even then the pairings are UNNATURAL so you really are doing the same thing breeding for pretty.
,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I didn't mean to say I did the same exact cross your attemting, but I have done others. Don't get so confrontational, that's why I don't even like talking to you. I actually agree, with some of the things you bring up. It's a hot debated topic, much like polotics, or religion. But I don't agree with the re-absorbed arguement.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

im not confrontational jorge its a real shame you take it that way. you said you did it anyone can SAY they did it, but you havnt so the fact is you dont know.
i ask pretty straitfoward questions that you seem to ignore or take personally maybe we can getcha some "sensetive pants" or ill just not post/address you here on the forum if thats what you would like of coarse that would confirm you are a divider which is a shame but by all means is your choice.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>im not confrontational jorge its a real shame you take it that way. you said you did it anyone can SAY they did it, but you havnt so the fact is you dont know.
>>i ask pretty straitfoward questions that you seem to ignore or take personally maybe we can getcha some "sensetive pants" or ill just not post/address you here on the forum if thats what you would like of coarse that would confirm you are a divider which is a shame but by all means is your choice.
>>
>>,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
>>-----
>>Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???
>>
>>my website www.barmollysplace.com

Are you kidding me!! Just exactly how do you unite anything other than snakes in a tub? You practically call me a liar, and tell me I need sensitive pants, this is exactly why I avoid your totally ignorant threads most of the time! I tried to be a tiny bit civil to you, and this is what I get. I posted two pictures of snakes that have been crossed, and you ask for proof, really? I've been breeding snakes for over 30 years. What's so hard to believe that I threw some snakes in a tub that weren't the same? Do you think it's so hard that I would have to fabricate a lie? I've done it many times, I don't have to prove it to you. The fact that you looked at both of those snakes and couldn't tell they are hybrids proves my point!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

yeah ok jorge, WHATEVER dude thanks for making it chrystal clear.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Not to get involved in the hybrid debate, I made some very very cool ones myself this year, but your F1/F2/F3 conception is all wrong. F1 would be first generation from original parents. F2 would be offspring from F1 siblings....as F3 would be offspring from F2 siblings produced from the F1 siblings. When you breed the F1 offspring back to one or the other parents, the offspring become F1 again.....at least that is the way I was always taught. Either way we get the idea you are working towards. Good luck. Sounds like a cool looking end result.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

yes you are correct brandon thanks for pointing that out when i breed the F2's to mbk those offspring will be F1's.
i saw the carpondros! wow very nice congrats on those how many ya keepin? boy sure would be tempting to keep them all to see how they turn out W O W E E !!!

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thanks! You must have read my mind. lol. We are keeping them all. I have some other exciting things in the works for them in the next several years. Our ratio was 1.6 and I definitely wanted to keep all the girls.....soooooo, they are all staying. Should be some very cool critters when they get big.

Thanks again.
Brandon
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

yeah thats funny...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAA cobra food AHAHAHAHAHAHAAA
its clear your on the DIVISION side, shame.
cool bait clip though, good luck w/it!
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I really wanna see how these turn out! That pic is really awesome too because you see the mbk looking hatchling and then the one pipping looks like the underside of a FL Pose some more asap! And congrats on the hatchlings!!!

Jeremy Thompson
Captive Born Investments Inc.

my goal is to eventually produce a whiteside w/a solid blackback.
these are F2s 50/50's.
the holdbacks will be bred to mbk to produce F3's for both hets and possible hets and then the F4's should be dynomite it will take a few years.
anyway here are some preshed pics i will post more once they shed
,,,,,,,thomas davis










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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Interesting. Do you have pictures of the F1 parents?

yeah i posted pics of them below, they kinda look like splendida.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Very Nice Thomas

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Paul.

Uk-Hybrids.com

thanks mate!

,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas,
Don't you think the White Sided gene will take away from the Dorsal pattern like it does in Floridana and Holbrooki and all other Whitesideds for that matter?

I, too have thought about producing a Lavender MBK or a WhiteWall MBK or a lavender/whitewall mbk.......Then there's the amel and yellow amel and axanthic genes to throw into the mix as well.......One day I may try it......One day......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

..One day I may try it......One day......

good for you john, ya gotta get busy because you wont see really cool stuff for a few generations. im shooting for F4 mongrels to be jet black whitesides! still a few years away though.
i feel getula is getula is getula of course i also feel that mexmex,greeri,thayeri or all the same to... so??? i dunno im just not into the "ssp" thang, i do understand it but geez the lengths some go to defend it like they are SO seperate they need own sp. status!... thats the bummer for me and how some literally HATE hybrids or crosses so much??? GEEZ if they would put that kind of passion and emotion INTO the hobby, WOW the hobby/industry would have NOTHING to fear from the govt. or animal rights whackos looking to SHUT US ALL DOWN.
oilwell.
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

If you said that from the first the thread wouldn't have been as incendiary, but then you knew that didn't you?
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

>>>If you said that from the first the thread wouldn't have been as incendiary, but then you knew that didn't you?

what??? i missed something?... is your statement directed at me tony???
i see some post have been removed, so sad. ahhwell,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I am actually working on the exact same project. I have an adult male whitesided "Mongrel" king (50% Brooks 50% MBK). I bred him back to a MBK this year and I've got eggs cooking. I might want to do a hatchling trade with you to get some new blood into the lines.

Ryan

cool, email me,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

One - Name calling. Enough already, some of you are old enough to be my father.

Two - While these are hybrids persay, both snakes are kingsnakes. This is not a milk snake to a kingsnake. So that is why it is staying. If it were milk to king or so on, I would have moved it.

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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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>>>One - Name calling. Enough already, some of you are old enough to be my father.

well i know its NOT me! im MUCH to young for that

and yeah sadly some feel its a hybrid but really its an INTERGRADE of 2 ssp. of KINGSNAKES! im glad you see the reasoning behind them being posted here on the KINGSNAKE forum as they ARE kingsnakes.
repticon this W/E pasadena tx.6/25 & 6/26 come on it'll be fun imma really trying to make daytona this year also...

XOXOXOXOX,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>>>>One - Name calling. Enough already, some of you are old enough to be my father.
>>
>>well i know its NOT me! im MUCH to young for that

You might be, but I know some of you could be... It was rough because we were in the middle of insane storms here, power going on and off and every time I could get the computer on I had to turn into mom. Needless to say I got cranky.

>>and yeah sadly some feel its a hybrid but really its an INTERGRADE of 2 ssp. of KINGSNAKES! im glad you see the reasoning behind them being posted here on the KINGSNAKE forum as they ARE kingsnakes.
>>repticon this W/E pasadena tx.6/25 & 6/26 come on it'll be fun imma really trying to make daytona this year also...
>>
>>XOXOXOXOX,,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
>>-----

I TOTALLY understand the hybrid/purist debate. I am a mess of a person. While I have NO issue owning my hybrid morelia, there is no way in blue hell I would own a hybrid blood python. With morelia the lines are so messy as it is, the vast majority are probably hybrids, at least with the jungle carpets.

While I kmow making this stance will peeve people, if it is kingsnake to kingsnake, the discussion WILL stay. Now kingsnake to milksnake, you will be booted to the hybrid forum.

The prime topic of this forum is kingsnakes, but really this is a community based group. If I kept it only to kingsnakes, the fathers day post would go, the bill haast post would go and anything else not exclusively kingsnake. I know this happened in the past, but that was the past.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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The prime topic of this forum is kingsnakes, but really this is a community based group. If I kept it only to kingsnakes, the fathers day post would go, the bill haast post....

I don't envy your position.

The prime topic of this forum is kingsnakes, but really this is a community based group. If I kept it only to kingsnakes, the fathers day post would go, the bill haast post....
So is it okay if I post the creationism/evolution thread? LOL!

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

>>The prime topic of this forum is kingsnakes, but really this is a community based group. If I kept it only to kingsnakes, the fathers day post would go, the bill haast post....
>>So is it okay if I post the creationism/evolution thread? LOL!
>>

Once the name calling and threats start, I start pulling.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!