Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I bred a 100% Het Toffee male to several 100% het albino females this year. The female het albinos were produced by me and never bred to any other male other than my het toffee. I wanted to see if there was any chance they were compatible. Well...the first clutch hatched last week. 5 eggs. 4 "normals". 1 "albino". Has anyone else ever seen this happen with the toffe project? Check out the video on my website www.royalconstrictordesigns.com to see the details my findings. I plan to post photos of this albino once she sheds. I'll give new video and photo updates on her monthly as she grows. It will be VERY interesting to see if the white on this snake turns purple. This could mean there is a hidden gene involved with the toffee/albino project. It certainly adds an interesting twist to the story and I think there is still much to be learned. I also have more clutches incubating, one of which is due to hatch in less than 2 weeks. Updates on that clutch are coming as soon as they pip.

Thanks,

Garrick DeMeyer
Royal Constrictor Designs

Does it look different than a regular albino.

She looks just like a regular albino so far. She's starting her shed cycle now, so I want to wait until she does shed before I post a photo. There will be no shortage of photos once she sheds and starts to grow. Maybe she'll stay white, maybe she'll turn purple. I definitely can't wait to find out.

Garrick

I would expect them to color up somewhere in between a toffee and a regular albino, similar to how mojave x mystics (potions) are colored somewhere between a super mojave and a super mystic.

>>She looks just like a regular albino so far. She's starting her shed cycle now, so I want to wait until she does shed before I post a photo. There will be no shortage of photos once she sheds and starts to grow. Maybe she'll stay white, maybe she'll turn purple. I definitely can't wait to find out.
>>
>>Garrick
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com
www.Ciliatus.com

>>Does it look different than a regular albino.

Toffee look exactly like albinos when they are hatched. Then start to look kinda like a banana and eventually become a toffee. But it takes over a year I think.

Not may toffee have been produced either. I think the toffee have only been proved last year (or the year before in the case of the candy may be).
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love this world, don't hate it.

That's very interesting!

Is there any way to trace the genetics on the male het Toffee? Maybe he's also het for the Normal strain of Albino...

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Jon
Cold Blooded Addiction

Jon,

I'm not trying to speak for Garrick at all but I have a male 100% Het. Toffee that I imagine is the brother of his!

These 100% Het. Toffee animals were all sired by the original Toffee that Craig imported a few years ago. Last year I bred my male to a regular Albino but upon inspection with the ultrasound, her follicles began to shrink in size so she didn't lay. I also bred him to a Pinstripe & Spider last year. I saw a brilliant bright color on a few of the babies from that clutch. From my experience breeding regular Albinos and Lavender Albinos for a while, I've found that the Hets are usually brighter and nicer than a normal wild-type. So I am just assuming (This is JUST my opinion) that these similarities in Hets having nice color might lend something towards compatibility.

What if there were some linked gene that modified the look of an Albino into a Toffee? I think that in the next few years that everyone working with these 3 (or 4) projects will discover that their investments were all sound and there are many interesting things that can be done with each one.

I'm not interested in a lot of negative views towards this without more breeding trials and raising animals to see their differences.

This year I have a shot at a clutch from a female Albino and female Lavender Albino bred to a Het Toffee male. I'm not sure if either will take but I will have it listed somewhere if it does.
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Sean Bradley
Owner : EbN
www.ExoticsByNature.com

I don't see why that wouldn't be possible. Look at the lesser/platty daddy gene.
And hidden gene woma stuff.

There's all kinds of gene madness going on lately.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

Sean,

I notice brighter colors in some of my hets, too- the lavenders especially. I have produced a number of wild-type het lavenders, but when I crossed my lavender to spider and clown, the hets came out with extremely brilliant color. My spider het lavenders almost looks like honeybees, but with black spiderwebs instead of purple/grey. My double het lavender clowns look almost like orange dreams. Not sure what to make of that. Good luck with your research on compatibility with some of these morphs. The more trials we do, the sooner this stuff can get figured out. Good luck with your season!

Garrick

So Toffee and Albino could produce a paradigm boa type ball python now? Jeez first the lucy complex, then the yellow belly complex, now this, ball pythons are easily one of the most genetically diverse species I have ever heard of, and theres no subspecies even! How about that. Very interesting find, love genetics like this, huge congrats! ~Caylan.s.~

That's assuming his het toffee wasn't also het albino by some odd mishap. I would assume the original breeding to get the het toffee would be toffee to something else. That something else could have been het albino (unknowingly) and could have passed the albino gene to the het toffee baby.

I say we save any further speculation until his other het toffee x het albino clutches hatch.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

It wouldn't matter anyway...
I'm dumb.

If the male het toffee is also het albino, then the other clutches would have the same chance of getting albinos.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

http://www.reptilescanada.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52065#post439273 turns out it's been done, and this would confirm it I think. Looks amazing regardless, will be interesting to see if it goes all out toffee or stays kinda lavender albino because of the albino gene being used in place of a full toffee gene. EIther way you lucked out, huge I think, major congrats again! ~Caylan.S.~

A "trusted source" who I won't name publicly told me about this a few months ago. Apparently toffee and albino are alleles of the same gene...not all that surprising in the ball python world.

This should only help the market for both morphs, IMO.

Congrats man...that was some good forward-thinking on your part.

-AC
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Anthony Caponetto
www.ACreptiles.com
www.Ciliatus.com

Not a genetics expert here. Matter of fact the only thing I know about genetics is what I've learned from Ball Pythons. So with the genes being on the same allele what does that mean for morphs. Does this mean that when you cross the two you could get a different morph with both genes visible or does it mean that you can only get one or the other? Or get both and only one being visible?

I just wanted to add for the record that I cut this clutch and filmed the video less than a week ago. I want to make sure that everyone knows that I haven't been sitting on this knowledge more more than a few days. I was just waiting for this snake to come out of the egg, which it did yesterday. I believe this needed to be brought to light right away as it will likely have a big impact on the toffee project. I will definitely share any and all new information as I discover it.

Thanks,

Garrick
Royal Constrictor Designs

Peter Williams in Canada produced an albino last year by breeding a het toffe to a 50% het albino.

He first taught that his male was also het albino. So he just kept the secret and kept the snake to see how it would grow.

But this second snake just prove that it is really possible to produce "toffee" like snake from line breeding it with albinos.

Here is the link
www.reptilescanada.com/forums/showpost.php?p=439335&postcount=10

And in case you can't see, here is what he said and the pictures.
[QUOTE=Peter Williams;439335]Well, this sucks, I was so close. Last season (2010 season) I bred my het toffee male to a 50% het albino female. I was just trying to make a bunch of poss het toffees, didn't really think/care about the fact she was poss het. Well to my surprise the first head that poked out, was a little albino. Being a relatively unknown guy, and based on the fact that my het toffee male was bought second hand, and not straight from Craig Stewart, I knew people would think that I got screwed and what I had on my hands was just a regular albino. So I decided to wait until next season, to repeat the breeding, and to see how the "Toffino" as I call it, grew up. Well, the cat is out of the bag now, so here you go. The following photos are in chronological order from the time I produced it, until now. The female laid 8 eggs this year, and they are at about day 30.

Link

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love this world, don't hate it.

Also, I think that 2 albinos from het toffee to het albino can't be a glitch and that's have to be the proof.

Now, it will be interresting to see how the toffee react with the lavenders.

I wonder if the toffee isn't a mutation of the lavender and albino together. The albino and lavender wouldn't be compatible both together, but the toffee could be the inbetween.

Wow the genetics in Ball Python will never stop impressing me.
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love this world, don't hate it.

I'd be very surprised if Toffee and Lavender are compatible. Presumably Toffee and Albino are compatible because they are two different versions (different mutations) of the same gene. I understand that Lavender and Albino have been proven not compatible (right?) so that would indicate they are mutations of different genes. So Toffee should NOT be a mutation of the same gene as Lavender.

Albino and Lavender could be not compatible but albino & toffee, and toffee & lavender are together.

It would be rare but possible.

It is possible to have 2 genes on the locus but being incompatible.

You could have a double het albino and het lavender
When bred to albino, it gives you albino and het when bred to lavender it gives you lavender and het.
But that animal would look normal.

But that's only speculation and it's probably that the lavender and toffee are not compatible. But I wouldn't put all my money on it yet.
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love this world, don't hate it.

My assumption to the genetics of this anomaly would be similar to the genetics of the Ultra and Ultramel corn snake.

"Ultra is an allele to amelanism. It produces a melanin-reduced effect without altering the pattern. Between these two mutant alleles, there can be Amel/Amel (amelanistic) and Amel/Ultra (ultramel) and Ultra/Ultra genotypes. It is currently undetermined whether Ultra/Amel specimens can be reliably separated from Ultra/Ultra specimens by a visual examination alone."

When Breeding Ultramel x Amel you get both Ultramel and Amel offspring. Determining hets from Ultramel x Normal is impossible without breeding, poss het ultra or amel???
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Don Antiel
www.specialtyreptile.com