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Hello, I have posted pics of this litter right after they were born and now that they have shed I am starting the daunting task of figuring out what the hell most of these babies are?!?! You would think it would be "easy"... either a normal or a motley...but , I ended up with a ton of them showing jungle LOOKING traits... I have already been told by some that there is no way I can claim these are Jungles and I am not looking to argue that. I just don't understand how more than half of my litter came out with crazy patterns, or lack there of, if the parents are just a "normal" normal and a "normal" motley..... any guess on what this could be? I'd be happy with just a concrete normal or motley for starters, lol. thanks for looking and hopefully helping me out!!! This is just one of 34 I am struggling with!!!

Looks like a very nice but aberrant hypo. I had a couple litters last year from a motley het albino by double het that had some aberrant hypos as well. Something funky seems to come from the motley x hypo crossings. At least in my limited experience. Congrats on a nice hypo though.

Thanks for your reply! I have also heard the same thing about the Motley Hypo gene yet I don't see it messing up the ghost motleys or hypo motleys I have produced or bought...? I have heard that trying to produce a motley moonglow, you need to not have the motley genes coming from the same parent as the hypo... I am not so sure this wouldn't "work" as I have ghosts and 100%TH moonglow motleys that have the classic motley patterns... so, I don't know. I guess time will tell. In the meantime, I need to figure out the percentages of recessive genes in this litter since they were recessive to recessive.

Thanks again!!

its weird because I keep hearing that motley x hypo makes weird (normal)hypos, but somehow it doesn't seem to mess up the hypo motleys...or ghost motleys, sunglow motleys..and im presuming the moonglow motleys as well. With that said, it SEEMS,at least, as if the Motley gene is "stronger" than the Hypo gene... as it can melt and disfigure the hypo/hourglass saddles of a normal hypo yet still maintain the near perfect squared shape of a Motley pattern while possessing the Hypo gene in a Motley. The motley hypos, ghosts, and sunglows I produced in this litter all have the squared saddles and barely any "pinching" in the centers, although the saddles are not all solid, as they are on the normal motleys or albino motleys. Most have "holes" in the saddles, some on a few, all the saddles on other snakes.... I even have other TH Moonglow Motleys from an unrelated breeding(thanks dave!) that exhibit the same saddle similarities ...

Again, my personal experience is limited...

...comments, thoughts, opinions???

Puzzling!!!

There must have been something more than a normal normal , because
this is an Aberrant Hypo Boa.

I guess the normal was a hypo and often crazy stuff pops out of Hypo breeding's !

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

I also got striped aberrant stuff by breeding a motley het. albino x Sunglow.

These are not jungles.
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Richard Ceniceros

Thanks for your reply. This is my first Motley litter so I appreciate info from others!! One thing I have yet to hear from anyone though is what IS a jungle? Everyone has made it clear what isn't, though there has never been any reason "why not" other than their word... but I have looked around online and not found anything definitive as to what is 100% without a doubt a Jungle...? Who first reduced this and with what? Any idea where this info can be found? It would help tremendously!!!

Ps , if I bred the same pair again and the same crazy patterns were displayed on the offspring, would this not be a genetic trait coming through? Or, as I am planning this year to do, if I bred the motley to another female and their babies had the same looks, is it still not safe to say it's a predictable genetic trait?

Thanks agin for your time and comment!! I hope some more info can come out because I believe a lot of people could use it!! Thanks everyone!

Just because a morph is not "Swedish line jungle" does not necessarily mean it is not a "jungle gene." There are a couple of "new morphs" that have popped up in codom outbreedings around the world. It's not uncommon to get some slightly aberrant patterns in the "normals" from codom outbreedings, and only by test breedings can you tell if something is truly unique/a morph on it's own.

>>Just because a morph is not "Swedish line jungle" does not necessarily mean it is not a "jungle gene."

Wrong. Yes it does mean that it's not a jungle. Please do not perpetuate misinformation based on your opinion.

"Jungle" and "descended from Lars Brandle's stock" are synonymous. This is the main, but not only, point you seem to be misunderstanding.

Besides, there is more going on than just an aberrant pattern with the TRUE jungle gene. There appears to be some funky color stuff going on as well.

What I've said above does NOT imply or state that an aberrant boa can't pass on it's traits in a heritable way. It simply states that to call it a jungle is absolutely a lie in numerous ways.

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Two identical single gene mutations are still the same mutation regardless of how accurately the bloodline can be traced. To say otherwise is foolish. To aggressively state otherwise with an arrogant air of confidence is more so.

The point I interpreted from: ["Swedish line jungle" does not necessarily mean it is not a "jungle gene"] is that the possiblity exists that an animal, with the same single gene mutation, could 'slip through the cracks', either by an unidentified captive produced jungle being bred or by a wild caught animal that happens to share ancestry from the Swedish jungle line. That possibility exists and that statement is 100% correct. I guess you missed the point?

">>Just because a morph is not "Swedish line jungle" does not necessarily mean it is not a "jungle gene."

Wrong. Yes it does mean that it's not a jungle. Please do not perpetuate misinformation based on your opinion.

"Jungle" and "descended from Lars Brandle's stock" are synonymous. This is the main, but not only, point you seem to be misunderstanding.

Besides, there is more going on than just an aberrant pattern with the TRUE jungle gene. There appears to be some funky color stuff going on as well.

What I've said above does NOT imply or state that an aberrant boa can't pass on it's traits in a heritable way. It simply states that to call it a jungle is absolutely a lie in numerous ways.

jb"
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-Ryan Homsey
TopNotchBoas.com Website

>>Two identical single gene mutations are still the same mutation regardless of how accurately the bloodline can be traced.

But that's the whole point, the word "jungle" doesn't describe the mutation, it's a "line" and is what we use to identify a cluster of abnormal traits that are reproduceable. In contrast, "albino" is a mutation description.

>>The point I interpreted from: ["Swedish line jungle" does not necessarily mean it is not a "jungle gene"] is that the possiblity exists that an animal, with the same single gene mutation, could 'slip through the cracks', either by an unidentified captive produced jungle being bred or by a wild caught animal that happens to share ancestry from the Swedish jungle line. That possibility exists and that statement is 100% correct. I guess you missed the point?

Sure, that possibility exists. But it would be the gene that's the same, not the line. As soon as someone decides what the gene is called, they can share that genetic name. But the line should be identified. Like "Kahl albino" and "Sharp albino".

jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Not meaning to take anything away from the Brandel (sp?) line. But, you are, in effect, saying that since the mutation was discovered once that it will not be discovered again in unrelated snakes, which is not likely to be true. That there is no possibility of extremely similar morphs occuring, perhaps on the same DNA locus, which is just not true. There are, in fact, at least two proven lines of C. Am. that are "jungle-type" morphs doing pretty much everything the Swedish line does (perhaps even better) with the possible exception of having the problem fraught "super." Back in the day, importers called funky patterns by various names including "jungle" without having proven any genetic inheritability...I do not advocate that; I do not advocate calling something "jungle" without stating what bloodline. The lines I referred to have all the pattern, eye, color similarities to proven "jungle Colombians," but do not appear to have visual supers.

Yes, the "normal " was a Frank Martin Orangasm line Hypo TH Moonglow girl to a Motley DH Snow male. Almost EVERY baby in this litter, even the Motleys, have some crazy stuff going on with their saddles, including "holes" in them versus "solid" saddle markings. I could post a ton of pictures considering there are 34 babies to chose from, but I really am looking to figure out what to make of this and how to tell what some of these are since some of the Motleys have solid square saddles and then some are more four pointed star patterned.... its crazy. I can see why some people say the motley gene messes up the hypo gene... but I also have unrelated motley hypo TH Moonglows that don't have crazy looking saddles..... weird indeed.

What makes a jungle a jungle is having it come from the original jungle line. The difference between an abberant boa and a jungle is that there is a super form of the true jungle. You may possibly have a genetic abberant trait hidden in there somewhere, but only future breedings can tell you that and that still does not make it a jungle. The only 100% way to know if that is a true jungle or not is to breed it to a true jungle and see if you get supers.
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Alberto Dimatteo
www.InvincibleBoas.com

Real Swedish Descended Jungles have a specific look that can include these traits but doesn't include all of these traits all the time.

Aberrant pattern , bubbles in pattern, missing saddle points,Broken head spear, head spear with holes or circle bubbles in it,
Tinge of red color in the upper part of the eye, a unique beige buckskin body color and dorsal lateral color shift.
Plus especially their tail color and even more importantly their dark tail borders are significantly reduced.

Here are some examples of Jungles I produced or own.

BBK Stripey girl Jungle Fem CarmArtJ_09_06 PH VPI Caramel PH Kahl Albino

BBK Jungle Fem CarmArtJ_09_02 PH VPI Caramel PH Kahl Albino

Arturo '07 Jungle Het Kahl Het Stripe produced by Jeremy Stone

Hannah Monstertail Jungle RIP

Hope you find the info and Images helpful.

. . . Lar M

Click below Link for more in depth details

Jungle markers? Post #4

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Lar,

I looked through the entire thread on the link you put up. It reads a lot like this one, really, and seems to be confusing to many, again, as this one. Your post, the one I am replying to now, seems to be the first "this is what you're looking for to classify a Jungle" list of visual traits in a boa thought to be a Jungle. While I do appreciate that list of "surefire traits", I have to say that, many of the pics in this thread and the one on the link you sent have pics of snakes that do not follow your list completely. Worse yet, is the fact this is typically explained away by using the "low-expression Jungle" title. Again, very confusing!!! Are there a certain number of these visual traits needed on one snake to classify it as a Jungle? Because if you need to see them all, I would have to say there were less than a handful of "true jungles" in all of the pics I saw looking through these two threads. Especially the "reduced black around the tail saddles/blotches" or the "saddle-points" description

I see,through reading these threads, that people are as passionate about the Jungle gene as others are about Bloods,Leopards, Motleys, and Arabs, just to name a few, but I still feel the Jungle gene is not as clearcut or excepted as the rest of them. There is no "low-expression" Motley or Arabesque,for instance. I understand there are aberrant patterns that show through in a few babies of a few litters and those are just considered aberrant babies. But when those aberrancies dominate a litter of babies, is it that easy to say it was a fluke? And, more so, when it can be repeated litter after litter with the same parents breeding to each other or even a different partner with the same results? Maybe then it still might not be a "Jungle"..but maybe deserves its own title?

I believe you have struck the nail on the head! I wonder just how many morphs have been lost by assuming it to be a common "aberrancy" and how many possible morphs are slow to being proven out due to the owner's personal bias as to how it should go as to results
People I know of are hoping their possible new morph is recessive and breeding "for" that, others are picking out a particular "look" that occurs in their breedings and breeding to prove that it's codom (disregarding others in the litters that may also be something). How sure are you that there's no such thing as low-expression examples of some morphs, since it appears nobody is breeding to prove otherwise (I've heard of aberrant carpet pythons that are jag littermates producing jags)???

DeHart,

IMO , I would say this is because, in large part, that breeders( even bigger ones) cannot hold back every "cooler than expected" baby nor do they always have a mate for that holdback that would be "perfect" to test their theories out on. It sucks. There are space,money, time issues as well that all would play a part in this. What's worse is that these "cooler/different than normal" babies can come to breeders that do not wish in the slightest for something like that to come from their litters so they are overlooked in means of selling the babies versus playing detective/scientist. Sad but true.

More importantly though, again IMO, is that the people wanting to actually take the time to try and figure these occurrences out and put the effort,money, and passion into these projects should be able to do so without being hounded by naysayers or know-it-alls!!! If it weren't for pioneers and go-getters, we would all be breeding normal boas ... or maybe not even owning snakes at all. With that said, everyone has a part in this... sharing information, I feel, is crucial! If your snake looks like mine but you say its different, then tell me WHY/HOW?! And vice versa.

Im still somewhat new to this so I know there is a lot to learn, but hopefully a lot to teach as well!

jamess

Other lines Like Big Mike's Abby Line show many traits very similar to Jungle traits. That does not mean those Abby Boas
are Jungle Boas.

Like I said there is no set number of characteristics that can classify a Jungle Boa. Once you see them in and more importantly see them in the Goo. You will never have a problem identifying true Jungles again.
Now that's not to say that once the Jungle gene is added to Hypo or Albino or something else that it won't confuse the matter more because it certainly will confuse the situation more.
There are still Hypo Jungles that I can not clearly identify. There are many Albino Jungles that I can not clearly identify.

Possibly the reason I can not identify them is because they in fact are not Jungles anyways, but that is another subject for another day or discussion.
Right now we will concentrate on straight forward Jungle Boas.

The biggest difference for me is always in the tail. True Jungles work somewhat like Hypo, they bring a specific color and reduction in the black borders around the tail blotches.

If anyone asks me for one specific trait that identifies a Jungle I always point to the tail.

Can you see the difference in these Boas pictured and normal Boas?

Same girl Female Jungle

The most colorful Fem Jungle

http://www.boasbyklevitz.com/images/CarmArtJ_1831.JPG[/IMG]

This one is very similar to the previous couple pics. But this is a different Jungle 1 male 1 female both have extremely red tails

Jungle Boa story Peter Kahl

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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Got any idea what I'm talking about yet ?

Here are a couple more pics

These two won the calendar contest Jungle category on RTB

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

In these pictures , more than in any others, I can see the examples of what you originally claimed as "Jungle Gene Trademarks" ( my words, not yours)... The holes and breaks in the head stripes as well as the tail colors and thinner than usual black edges of the tail blotches!! So, for these few snakes, yes, I do see what you are telling me to look at!!

I am wondering if the presence of BCC blood is in the the Boas you posted(anywhere down the bloodlines)? Possibly Suriname or Peruvian? They look similar to body and tail color, reduced black around the tail blotches as well as head striping( yours have stripes with "holes",while my Peruvians are just "less solid" stripes as they go back from the nose) as my 75% Peruvian Hypo litter I produced this year.I realize they are NOT exactly alike, just asking if there is BCC blood in the Jungle line ( yours or any other).. here is a few examples of what I'm talking about...

Just asking... Since bloodlines get blurry after a while and the boas you posted seem to have a redder than Columbian tail color... Thanks for your willingness to even talk about this since it seems to be such a touchy touchy subject with plenty to debate over!!! I am just here to learn and ask questions and LISTEN and possibly share what I know and offer opinions as just that, OPINIONS!!

There is no Bcc as based on what these Boas and most Jungle Boas have been bred with and to over the years has always been Colombian type Boas.

To be honest I believe the Jungle Boas that came from a Zoo in Sweden. I believe Boas in that Swedish Zoo quite possibly were imported from an area in the Basin of Colombia that was near Peru.

Too many people have commented the similarities of Jungle Boas and many Peruvian Boas.

I do believe there could be something to this.

I just spent the last four hours tracking down information online about
the first Jungle Boas produced in this country.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Yeah, to be honest , I have stayed away from Jungle Boas because, at least in Florida, every show was flooded with "coral" albinos and "jungle" boas since I got into snakes. That has only been a few years, in all honesty, but I have seen people sell a baby albino for $100 more(back when they still were worth $500 each) claiming it was a "coral" AND SELLING OUT OF THEM while the honest vendors would tell you that NO albino can be called a coral until it was old enough and big enough to actually display the coral colors....and those were the people who were taking their babies back home at the end of the shows because they wouldn't mislead people.
At the same time, every boa, hypo or otherwise, with an aberrant saddle EVEN IF ONLY !!ONE SADDLE!! was being dubbed a "jungle". Because of that, I have steered clear of anything bearing the name "Jungle", fearing I was being asked to pay an enormous amount of extra money for an aberrant saddled snake that the producer had NO part in consciously/ purposely creating. Only now am I reading that there is more to the Jungle "gene" so, of course, this causes more questions. Like anything, when you're introduced to something new, you ask questions( if you're smart!!) and not just throwing money at it to say you own it yet having no idea what you're buying!

Thanks for you input and time with this thread!!

No problem I think it's been a fun interesting thread discussion. Hopefully many people will read it and take something from this thread that might be helpful.

It wasn't too long ago that I didn't entirely understand the Jungle trait.

I remember talking to Jeremy Stone about it in 2004 and explaining how Low expression( non aberrant Jungles) still confused me at times.

He helped me understand the color and subtle traits.

Then I started looking for those traits in every Low expression Image I could find.

That's when it really started to click and sink in for me.

I remember looking for Jungles at Tinley so I could really get an eye full.

What I still find interesting is the Jungles with less aberrant patterns usually tend to have and be
the more clean colorful types.

The Jungles with more aberrant markings more often tend to be a little on the darker side
or not quite as colorful.

Of course there are exceptions but for the most part this holds true.

Looking at real solid Jungles in person is the best thing.

Plus dealing with people who are trust worthy and have a good name is the other way to be assured
you will get a real Jungle.

Not just something some goofy guy thinks or calls a Jungle.

If you go to a competent fairly well known breeder(doesn't have to be a big name)
you will get a real nice exceptional Jungle.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

I agree, this has been an interesting thread!! Especially since the Jungle topic really came out of nowhere!! LMAO, I knew my motley litter was going to cause trouble but not like this!

Thats definitely interesting that you agree there MIGHT be something to so many peoples' thinking there is a BCC influence in the Jungle blood somewhere. I mean, realistically, NO ONE can for sure say a jungle has NEVER reproduced with a BCC( mainly Peruvian) and its offspring sold out into the boa world. The way "cool or different" looking boas have been imported,regardless of locality, on top of the lack of definition of what a jungle was,especially years ago, Im sure has had to blur some bloodlines unknowingly.

If they could go back, I think the Jungle gene should have been called the Lotto gene.. because it seems you have to "match up" several key traits to get a winner and even more, if not all, of the traits need to be great examples of those traits to really hit the "jackpot" ( i.e. Super forms) and even if you "win" and get it some of its traits, its never always the same amount on each boa, no matter what you do to recreate it.There is no rigging this machine!! There definitely seems to be too many people out there stuck with "low expression jungles" that , value and respect-wise, equal only a "free ticket" lotto winning/boa.You either chance it and hope to capitalize with the second ticket( or boa, i.e. breeding it to another jungle and hoping for supers)or suck it up and just stop playing. Or even worse, you end up with a ticket/boa in-hand that you thought was a winner but turns out you were actually one number off from the jackpot... and left with "just" an aberrant boa and an empty wallet. yikes!

Makes me wana hug my motleys a little tighter before falling asleep tonight!!!
It's been awesome chatting Lar!! Will see you in the threads, Im sure!!

Jamess

Well when I say that Jungle could have Bcc influence I mean from the beginning. The first Jungles came from Lars Brandle in Sweden . Lars got his " Boa " from a Zoo in Sweden. What I'm saying is that the Zoo in Sweden possibly imported an Amazon basin Boa, that came from an area in Colombia that was very near Peru. That's just speculation though no proof of this.

I know where my Jungles come from and there was never any Bcc bred into the line.I know this for a fact, my Jungles and pretty much anybody who acquired a Jungle from a reliable source has a Jungle with no introduced Bcc blood.

From reading what your paragraph here that starts with " If they could go back " it sounds like you're still confused about what a Jungle is.

It's pretty clear cut when you see a Jungle you will know what it is.

I don't know how I can make it any more clear to you.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

As Copied from your post :

Real Swedish Descended Jungles have a specific look that can include these traits but doesn't include all of these traits all the time.

Aberrant pattern , bubbles in pattern, missing saddle points,Broken head spear, head spear with holes or circle bubbles in it,
Tinge of red color in the upper part of the eye, a unique beige buckskin body color and dorsal lateral color shift.
Plus especially their tail color and even more importantly their dark tail borders are significantly reduced.
**************************************************************************************
Here is an example that follows the description above:
aberrant pattern & missing/messed up saddle points

beige / buckskin body color

reddish tinge in upper part of eye

Broken hear spear / holes in head spear

I bought this as a super clean salmon/hypo a few years ago, not het for anything, and did not pay extra for a "Jungle"... If you were given this snake to sell, what would YOU market it as? Would you keep it and breed it into a Jungle project or classify it as solely a nice looking(IMO) hypo with some interesting saddles and leave it at that( even though it does follow the Jungle guidelines)? To be honest , I have been torn between breeding her this upcoming season and selling her. If there is a chance she could reproduce crazy looking offspring I'd be less stressed out to just sell her and let someone else deal with it,LOL. But seriously, What would you call this,understanding this is just an opinion from one person, but I have read your posts for a while and would appreciate and respect your input.

Thanks!!
jamess

That is a Hypo that I would most likely put in the Non Jungle pile or at most call it a Possible Jungle even if it came out of a Jungle litter.

The problem is that this is a Hypo , I've already admitted that
hypo confuses the process even more.

Show me almost any non Hypo aberrant Boa and in most cases I can tell if it is a Jungle or not.

I make mistakes sometimes too, I don't get it right every time.

Knowing that it didn't come from a known Jungle litter or if I just purchased it,
I would not hesitate or even think it was a Jungle.

My guess is that the aberrant pattern of this salmon/Hypo would mix really well with the Jungle trait, creating very crazy aberrant patterned offspring.

If you really want to prove a point to yourself breed that Salmon/Hypo to a Jungle Boa
and I guarantee you will not produce any Super Jungles. . . .

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Thanks for checking my boa! See, here is where the real confusion/frustration, for me as well as others,I'm sure, begins... Here is a boa that follows most, if not all, of your list ..yet because I didn't say I bought it from a breeder claiming it as a Jungle, it's not a Jungle. To be honest, I cant say what the breeder claimed it to be because I bought it from a guy that bought it from a breeder at the Daytona Expo. I cant be sure that when I bought it the Jungle title was attached to it because it was three years ago and I was just excited to see a HYPO considering the local reptile shop didn't even have them,lol. It could have been titled a Jungle.I don't remember or care.

Your comment about it being cool to breed my hypo to a Known Jungle, IMO, would bring more confusion because of the following questions... What percentage of the offspring would be Jungles? Would it be 50% as with morphs like Motley, Hypo, Arabesque? Which offspring could you even call jungles considering this parent is aberrant but "not Jungle" and how would that mess up the Jungle traits of the "known Jungle" other parent? How could I claim which babies are indeed Jungles, especially knowing half of the litter would be hypos, after hearing how much the Hypo gene messes up the Jungle also? From what Ive seen in this thread and the other on the link you sent me earlier, it seems like I could do what you said and breed it to a known Jungle( maybe even one of yours) and still risk being told that none of the offspring are jungles...or,as you put it " at best, a low expression jungle" which would hurt it's market value, undoubtedly!! Nerve-racking!!! :/

So many questions , makes it all hard to decide what's worth it. It doesn't take away from the fact that you have awesome looking boas(regardless of title) but at some point it makes me wonder if the need to put a title on everything, and not wanting to share that title or its marketing power with everyone( which would inherently lower the value if supply outweighs demand), somehow is the root of all of the evil/debates?!?! If there was this much confusion with every morph out there, the boa world would be at a standstill and full of guesswork. YIKES!!!

The Jungle is a Dominant trait as such in the normal Jungle state it is Heterozygous( 1 mutant allele and one normal or Wild type Allele)
it will pass one of it's mutant Allele's on to about half the litter.

In the Homozygous state known as Super Jungle it has 2 mutant alleles, it will pass 1 mutant allele
on to every offspring in the litter.

So if you breed a Jungle to that Hypo Fem you will get about half a litter
of hypo Boas and about half a litter of Jungle Boas.

Some of the hypo offspring should carry the Jungle gene and some
of the non hypo offspring should carry the Jungle gene.

I have a feeling that hypo/Salmon will produce very aberranmt Jungle Boas for you.

I think you would be happy with the results

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Lar,

Thanks for your pictures as well as your patience!! Before going into this post I must say how surprised I am by the response to my original post!! If you, or anyone for that matter, will go back and look at what I wrote, I said I am not claiming my litter to be Jungles but I was just looking for clear phenotypes for my litter so that I am not stuck with 34 babies nor selling them mislabeled. Thats when all of the Jungle-Madness started!! LOL. There is a frenzied passion with the Jungle gene that isn't seen with other saddle pattern morphs and a few explanations as to why that is....As you put it tho, that is another discussion in another thread. For me, I was just concerned with whether or not the baby pictured in my first post was a "normal" or a motley,regardless of phenotype, since the saddles were all joined. I had seen a past post titled "NEW GHOST MOTLEY" a little while ago and saw that , while it IS a motley, the snake had crazy dorsal striping that led to its twisted looking saddles and thought to myself " well, if thats a motley, maybe this guy(my snake) could be a motley too...but wanted to get reassurance from the more experienced forum.

Trust me, if I had it my way, none of my babies would have come out with aberrant traits!! It would make the two moonglows I have from that litter an easy call on whether they are "normal" moonglow or "motley" moonglow!! LOL.

The "Hypo gene causes aberrant patterns" claim is(to me in my limited experience, just to clarify)too easily dismissing something genetic going on because I bred another TH Moonglow to an albino het snow and none of that litter looks anything like this aberrant litter. I know that having the hypo gene doesn't 100% guarantee aberrant traits..but to have one litter with absolutely none and another that has almost 100% of its offspring with them..& to think that those particular parents of the 2nd example are not specifically causing those aberrancies is seemingly reckless....no?

Well I agree that the Hypo parents from the 2nd litter are most
likely contributing something special to the offspring.

There are threads else where that go in depth about this phenomena as well.

There are several Lines of Boas that have aberrant crazy pattern
offspring which started with in Salmon and Hypo Boas.

Abby Line

Nova Boas

MP line

Cyclone line

Plus I believe 5-10 more that I can't think of.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

>>The biggest difference for me is always in the tail. True Jungles work somewhat like Hypo, they bring a specific color and reduction in the black borders around the tail blotches.

I wanted to ask you about this because I was always under the impression that jungles showed a thicker black border around the saddles?

The traits I look for in jungles:
thick black borders around saddles
ghosting in the saddles
'hole in the head' bubble hole in head spear
lateral line of speckles
yellow dorsal coloration
different colored lateral coloration
red tint in eyes
aberrant pattern/stripe tail and/or chainlink pattern

(one of my jungles, she's lower expression IMO)

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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

You are correct around the saddles the best ones do often have
darker borders and that is one marker I forgot to mention.

Around the tail borders it's reduced but crisp
I guess is a way to describe it.

Thx for reminding me about the saddle borders April.

For instance the Albino Jungle Mike Panichi produced has those
borders around every saddle of course they're white
because it's an Albino.

. . . Lar M
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Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Nice litter but no jungle there... I have poss jungles from my litters in 08 and 09 that show more of the jungle trait. Nice breeding though!
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.Spencer.

I think your post was referring to the original picture I posted at the top of the thread.... if so, I just wanted to clarify, again, that I was not looking for "certification" of the Jungle traits or gene. Honestly, I think its a safer bet to just say ABERRANT because as soon as I say Jungle LOOKING, a hailstorm came down upon me.I am not on here for that. I am just trying to figure out if that was a "normal" hypo boa (with obvious aberrant patterns) or a motley hypo ( with obvious aberrant patterns). Because so much of this litter has crazy saddles that don't resemble either of the parents, I didn't want to mislabel any of these. That is all. I know the genetics of the parents make all non-visuals only 50% het for Snow(sadly)... but that was the easy part in figuring out what they are!

Thanks for your compliment though!!! I hope to produce even better boas this next time around! We shall see!!

take care
jamess

Am I the only one that finds it interesting that the same people that tell you that although they have the certified "Swedish jungle" line themselves, and they cannot always definitely identify the low-expression jungles they themselves produce, are also the ones who can certify boas others produce not to be jungles???

Also, I see that true jungles have a Peruvian-type look. But, I think it's faulty logic to believe it's not an effect of the mutant gene. Many Chaos, Amber, even (in my opinion) Russian blonde T and mandarin-bellies, not to mention the "second phenotype" of super Aztec, look as though there's Hog Island in them even though there's not known to be. Argentine Bco naturally have a very motley-like pattern, and Arg' hybrids often have a somewhat arabesque look to them, presumably without having any Argentine influence at all. There's only so many loci of genes affecting color and pattern and only so many different "looks" can be achieved....some are bound to be similar without having any intergradation.

I'm reading and posting quickly so I'm not late for work - but I agree with some of your questions. a few earlier posts in this thread seemed to be asking the same thing, sorta..

with the original Swedish jungle - some of these earlier offspring were very low expression jungles and were sold or traded as normals... it seems likely that along the years - some of the low expression jungles are now not able to be traced back to their correct origin and so some people may question them as being jungles just because they can not be traced back..

Or - the other thought I have is that the original swedish jungle is related to other boas - maybe a great granpa from that line that is also not able to be traced back to the original swedish jungle - but even though there is no documentation that it is related, we know there are undocumented and related boas floating around out there?? right?? maybe?

That is correct, plus there's no reason that the same mutation can't occur again as spontaneous mutation. Just because it can't be traced on paper does not mean it's definitely not the same exact mutation (although I would understand why you may want to keep the lines separate and distinct).

Abberant yes or maybe some additional breedings could have something pop out! I want to some shots once they get some size on them. Its awesome to see how many of us are still going at it. I hope they do great James.
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.Spencer.

Spencer,

Yes ,I would have to agree... this is, by far, the longest thread I have ever seen!! Feels funny to be the one that started it, regardless of intention!! It's crazy. No doubt about that!!

Good news though, they started feeding and had their first meal this past Sunday, 21/34 eating, so in time I'll be able to post some more pictures of them and we can all go for another round!! LMAO!

Thanks for the compliments on the aberrant ones I have posted thus far! Wait till you see the Sunglows and some of the Motleys! Still thankful the crazy moonglows are both boys so I don't have to wait too long for them to cause another ruckus next year!! ha! They will most definitely be breeding here before going anywhere! In the end, I am more than okay with them just being cool ass aberrant Boas... no need for a crazy title on them, the wicked patterns and amazing colors speak for themselves and thats what 99% of people are buying them for anyway, especially from the little people like me

Enjoy your input, see ya in the posts!

jamess

it is very common to get abarrent babies in hypo breedings.
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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

Is that because of the hypo' gene having something freaky going on, or because the pretty colored "normals" people bred to them to enhance color may have ben low-expression of something else? Or, even both? Motleys, especially C. Am., seem to throw aberrancies and other morphs moreso than others I've heard of...usually from hypo breedings; but is it what I said above that the "nice/exceptional normals" being used now are the reason?

I can't answer for AbsoluteApril, but I agree with her post. I'm not sure that anyone has been able to say why, but it has been a pretty consistant observation over the years that hypo litters tend to throw random pattern aberrancies - and I think it can be independent of any other traits in the parents such as "nice color." there was a lot of talk in the past about unexpected aberrancies being related to gestation temperature, but I'm not aware of any significant amount of documented evidence to support this (but I would love to hear if there is any..)

I think you got some very cool aberrant hypo boas in that litter - definitely can't say with any certainty anything more than that since this is an unexpected obervation from one isolated litter - but I totally understand you curiosity and questions and effort to find out all that you can.

it would be a cool project to keep a significant portion of that litter - an equal number of normal and aberrant ones - for future breeding to see what results you get. if they are by some chance a very aberrant motley - I'm thinking it would be a stretch - but breeding one of them to an unrealted normal and producing a litter with motleys would provide the proof you would need to establish that.

happy boa'ing!

I just realized that the post I responded to was not from the original poster of the litter in question.

please excuse me....... Thanks.

I have no doubt that many mutations that affect color also effect pattern, since many genes are involved in more than one genetic activity. When the non-hypos in litters out of hypo breedings also have aberrancies it makes me wonder though.

Thanks for your reply to my original posted question! Glad to see a post that didn't involve the dreaded "J" word!!! LOL.

Yeah, I guess I have some more breeding to do with these babies. I do know for a FACT though, that the Frank Martin Orangasm Hypo het snow female had been bred before by Ryan DeCaro, the guy I bought her from( he bought her from Frank). And when this litter came out, I called him as I had promised and sent him pics and he confirmed she never had babies that looked like this litter for him. I bred her to a virgin Motley dh Snow,and I don't remember what Ryan had bred to her at the moment. So, with that said, I wonder how much of the "hypos cause aberrant patterns" theory is going on here if her whole other litter didn't throw anything like this? Or could it be from the addition of the Motley that caused it? Out of 34 babies, 20 are motleys without question, 2 that are maybes just because their patterns are not easy to tell (not including the one pictured at the top of this thread). So, its obvious there is a strong Motley presence in this litter.

Maybe unrelated, I bred a Hypo het snow male to an albino het snow female as well and none of their babies look anything like the TH X Motley litter. Their hypos all look like "normal" bowties in the hypos,sunglows, the2 ghosts and 2 moonglows.
Even more so, I have two more unrelated Motley Hypos het Snows that don't have crazy aberrancies in their saddles?! So thats why I was posting looking for info from the forum. To see if others had experienced similar results and with what pairings. I think its reasonable to have questions given the situation.

Thanks for your post!! They all are eating now so, with a little more time, hopefully I can figure this out a little more. I agree totally with your suggestion of breeding the questionables with Non-Motleys to see if there are Motley offspring! That would be an amazing day, if so, indeed!!

Thanks for joining in the thread!!

jamess

it looks like the hypo gene went crazy and left you a gift
now with that said it is from the motley gene but has been in my experience the hypo gene has been known to distort pattern genes like the motley for example now i know someone is going to post something negative to my writing this but this is my experience and my research since the motley had the ghost side the hypo gene was present but still a wonderful animal would look better over hear lol

Ray

Ray,

thanks for your comment! The hypo( or ghost) actually did not come from the motley side in my pairing! It was from the Orangasm Triple Het Moonglow female. The Motley was a normal Het for Anery and Albino... no hypo at all!!! I don't know if that will change your opinion at all, but just wanted to clear it up

Yeah you gotta watch posting in this thread, lol, and whatever you do....

DONT SAY THE "J" WORD!!!!!
whisper *juuuuuuuungle*

jamess