Reptile & Amphibian Forums

So what's the difference anymore?

Sorry, I'm just frustrated with the way these are marketed/sold anymore.

Even when you just look at them there is a big difference.

Unfortunetly the hobby isn't in a great place at the moment. We are almost where everything is just going to be called "snake." I don't understand it I keep morphs and locality animals bred for purity and type and I appreciate them all.

Pink Snakes 300.00
Albino Snakes 150.00
Red Snakes with a bit of white 99.99

Locality Line Bred Milksnake 35.00 / 2 for 55.00 because we can't get rid of them

It is frustrating.

They are very different, if pure specimens are put side by side with each other.

Nelsoni-White snout, Sinaloan-black snout.

Nelsoni-first black ring usually is not as clean and incomplete, in terms of being connected across the throat area. Sinaloans-first black ring forms a V-like pattern across the throat.

Nelsoni-red bands/rings are around 13-18. Sinaloans-red bands/rings average around 10-14 or maybe up to 16.

The problem is that a lot of people in our hobby haven't taken the time to keep them separate, in terms of the albino Nelsoni bred with Sinaloans, thinking they ARE all the same, ( when in reality, they are not ), and then you have these " het albino Sinaloans, albino Sinaloans " etc. being sold. Thus the confusion!! haha!!

I could parallel Sonoran gophers with west TX. bullsnakes. Two subspecies different than each other, and do sometimes intergrade, but then you have people promoting ideas that they are all the same, when in reality, they are not, when both subspecies are compared side by side. Pretty soon, if not already, it would be hard to find a pure Sinalaon or pure Nelsoni. Sad, isn't it!!?

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Genesis 1:1

Discern great description between the two, I would have to say it's hard already to find a "true blue". There are so many questionable ones out there. Ofcourse if you look hard enough(reputable breeders) you can find some...
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Jimmy Tintle

very true. here's a 10 RBR 'nelsoni' that just went up for sale here:

Are you serious Brian??

In any case, I definitely BELIEVE it. That thing is as "nelsoni" as I am the "state senator" of Florida..LOL!

Man, that is one killer Sinaloan if I ever did say so. You have some real nice ones too. Like you said earlier, the extremely un-common 10 RBR animal is truly something to behold!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

yup, the ad just went up in the milk classifieds.

and thanks, it took me a while to find what i currently have. while several of them key out in williams, there's only three that i'd call full blooded sinaloans - and that's because i know the breeders.

and since the guy selling is in california i'm actually tempted to purchase her.

even if she is a nelsoni. lol

Yeah, I just checked it out..LOL!

Definitely the very BEST phenotype of the three, and that one alone would be worth looking into since you are striving for very low RBR sinaloae..oops!, (I mean nelsoni..LOL!)

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

No Doug, not only are you THE senator, you are Magnum PI AND a splitter!! HA HA HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!

He he..he.....hmmmmm....bad joke...( sigh )..
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Genesis 1:1

Yep!, all those things!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I saw that too, amazing what you find in the classifieds some times......Really nice Nelsoni!!!! LMBO....Just goes to show sometimes people don't even know what they have.....
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Jimmy Tintle

Thanks!!!

Unfortunately, this all stems from a " breed first, think about about keeping lines pure later " mentality.

Who knew back in 1994 when I bought my pair of Sinaloans that this conversation would even exist in the future. But hey, this is what happens when people don't take the time to care about what they do.

My male Sinaloan is 17 by the way, and still kicking!!
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Genesis 1:1

My male Sinaloan is 17 by the way, and still kicking!!

That's great! hopefully you get another 17, I am actually always on the look out for some older breeders getting out of snakes to purchase their older breeders. Just for the simple fact that if they kept good records on who,what,when and where they got them I can get to some hopefully pure lines. I have 2-15 yr old sinaloan females, 2.1 15 yr old L.p.knoblochi( F2 from original locality animals) It sure pays to do some research online....
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Jimmy Tintle

Very cool!!
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Genesis 1:1

"So what's the difference anymore?"

Yes, unfortunately there isn't much "difference anymore" in quite a few lines of either in the hobby nowdays. It is just like MANY other types of snakes in todays hobby that are thrown together haphazardly. There are more crossed animals of ALL types in the herp hobby now than anyone could POSSIBLY shake a stick at, kingsnakes, ratsnakes, cornsnakes, ..you name it, and "it's in there!" (Prego spaghetti sauce slogan)..

The discovery of the amel nelsoni around 1994-95 is what actually set the stage for everyone to run scampering for a similar snake to breed these nelsoni to in order to produce more $2,000 snakes to sell. So since there were very few nelsoni in the entire hobby anyway at that time, Sinaloan's were the nearest thing. My gorgeous original male was acquired just before any amels were ever known.

As "DISCERN" mentioned, meristic-wise, nelsoni have 13 to 18 or even sometimes more RBR(red body rings)from neck to vent. Their snouts can be slightly mottled and flecked with white/yellow pigment, or can also have more pronounced white on the snout. Sinaloan's are generally a bit less light mottled on the snout than nelsoni however in general, but both subspecies can often have some light pigment or substantially darker snouts. The only real difference being is that nelsoni are more noted for their higher amount of light pigment on their snouts, especially from certain locales.

The first black ring on nelsoni underneath the throat are typically not connected, very thinly connected, or very often have a wide, incomplete "notch" where the black ring is broken . The first red ring width behind the head on nelsoni are typically much shorter than seen in sinaloae, as are the rest of the red rings because of their higher RBR count and wider, arching black rings. The outer black rings in the triads(rings of three)in nelsoni are wider at the base than sinaloae, and also follow suite upward and tend to arch outward much more on the dorsum compared to sinaloae as well. The tails on true nelsoni also tend to HEAVILY obscured with black pigment to when compared to most sinaloae.

Sinaloan milks on the other hand have RBR counts from 10 to 16, and their red rings are substantially wider because of the lower ring count. Their outer black rings are also thinner and arch out far less dorsally than does nelsoni. Also, sinaloae tend to have "cleaner" tails and are generally far less oscured with dark pigment. The first black ring underneth the throat in sinaloae tend to be connected, and often form a "V"-type pattern that points forward to the snout at the apex.

Here are a couple genuine nelsoni for comparison to good text-book examples of sinaloae.........

Genuine t-plus sire owned by Shannon Brown....

another t-plus genuine nelsoni

And some sinaloae for characteristic comparison to the above nelsoni....To summarize, simply note the shorter first red ring, RBR counts, thinner, less arching black rings, and cleaner tails on the sinaloae compared to the nelsoni

DISCERN'S genuine sinaloae.....

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Doug, Great post! and pics! Those T plus are just really cool looking. Can't wait to get a pair of those to add to the collection.
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Jimmy Tintle

That is new lazy trend it seems. These "breeders" think that there is no sub species and that anything goes. It pretty stupid. Nice snakes doug. That sinaloan is awesome!
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

It does reek of laziness, and the fear of knowledge and opening these things called books.

" Triangulum is Triangulum is Triangulum! " Sure it is!! HAHA!!
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Genesis 1:1

"" Triangulum is Triangulum is Triangulum!"

HAHAHAA!!!!,sounds like a slogan some moron would use to "fight knowledge with ignorance"..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

HA HA!!!!!!!!!!! Too funny!!!
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Genesis 1:1

What's that???? I only know whats printed on my screen.....LMAO Oh wait do people actually read anymore? Or is it easier to ask someone, and get half a$$ed information or misinformation.
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Jimmy Tintle

Tell me about it!! haha!
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Genesis 1:1

Gosh Jimmy,....I almost want to use your quote for my signature now. It is absolutely spot-on! and exactly what I have been saying for years now. The internet can definitely be a very helpful learning tool, but it is best used in conjunction with other sources of information too for maximum benefit. I find that in more recent years it has created alot of laziness and has virtually made good books almost a thing of the past for far too many people in this hobby. Many good books are what builds a great learning foundation, and the other stuff along personal experiences round it off in a great way. The good thing about good snake books are that you can refer to them ANY TIME YOU NEED TO, OR WANT TO!. This helps to virtually eliminate most husbandry problems and health issues BEFORE they arise and have to later be asked about and dealt with, then maybe only get bits and pieces of information here and there, or even worse,....bad misinformation and advice. Such as someone a while back suggesting to a "newbie" lady on one of these forums that she should feed her small 20 inch alterna two or three adult mice at a time!!..LMBO!!!!

Some of the stuff I read on forums can be so incredibly asinine it is beyond words. Certainly not all, but alot.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

We can't leave out some of the magazines too, specially the older ones like R&A,Captive Breeding and my favorite Vivarium. There are so many good short articles in these magazines. I know some of the reptiles magazines have good articles too and I refer to them quite often.

My latest read was the article in the old "Reptiles" magazine by Merker on the GBK hatching success by supplementing calcium to his females....Quite interesting for sure, I read it years ago and is always nice to reread it because you always forget some portion of what you read......
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Jimmy Tintle

The Captive Breeding Magazine was awesome but it was short lived. Only a handfull of issues. I found a guy that had the last few issues never released and I bought them, I wish they still ran that mag.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Yea me too, I have a couple in really bad shape I am always looking at local shows for them. Also some of the Vivariums too. Anything good in those last issues?
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Jimmy Tintle

>>Yea me too, I have a couple in really bad shape I am always looking at local shows for them. Also some of the Vivariums too. Anything good in those last issues?
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>>Jimmy Tintle

Yeah they were all good, but I have them put away with all my Vivariums and Reptiles mags. I had almost all of the Vivariums. The collection was too much for my wife to bear, lol. Someday when I have more space, I'll resurrect them again. Anybody remember an article about tadpoles with teeth found on some Island or something? I think it was the very last Vivarium? That had to be some kind of joke right? I only remember it slightly.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I haven't read this whole thread yet, and maybe I should before I say anything but what are some good Milk Snake Books that can be easily found today. I have to admit I'm a bit in need of some good books too, so if anyone could suggest some I'm sure the OP might appreciate it. I know I would, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

engler's book is a good start: (these are all amazon links)

www.amazon.com/Milksnakes-Advanced-Vivarium-Systems-Engler/dp/1882770986/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309716373&sr=8-1

applegates book is also a very good read:

www.amazon.com/Kingsnakes-Milksnakes-Captivity-Professional-Breeders/dp/0978897900/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1309716445&sr=8-5

the 1995 and 2005 markel and bartlett books contain lots of information and species/subspecies maps:

www.amazon.com/Kingsnakes-Milksnakes-Everything-Purchase-Nutrition/dp/0812042409/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1309716445&sr=8-2

and of course williams' book is the holy grail when it comes to descriptions, holotypes, and known ranges:

www.amazon.com/Systematics-natural-American-Lampropeltis-triangulum/dp/0893261580/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1309716589&sr=8-1

>>engler's book is a good start: (these are all amazon links)
>>
>>www.amazon.com/Milksnakes-Advanced-Vivarium-Systems-Engler/dp/1882770986/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1309716373&sr=8-1
>>
>>applegates book is also a very good read:
>>
>>www.amazon.com/Kingsnakes-Milksnakes-Captivity-Professional-Breeders/dp/0978897900/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1309716445&sr=8-5
>>
>>the 1995 and 2005 markel and bartlett books contain lots of information and species/subspecies maps:
>>
>>www.amazon.com/Kingsnakes-Milksnakes-Everything-Purchase-Nutrition/dp/0812042409/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1309716445&sr=8-2
>>
>>and of course williams' book is the holy grail when it comes to descriptions, holotypes, and known ranges:
>>
>>www.amazon.com/Systematics-natural-American-Lampropeltis-triangulum/dp/0893261580/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1309716589&sr=8-1

I have a couple of these already, looks like I'll need to get Williams'. Thanks for the links too!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I'd recommend Frank Blanchard's 1921 publication, A Revision of the Kingsnakes: Genus Lampropeltis. It's available from several sources. It holds some interesting text.

-Cole

same beast, imho there is no differance.

,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

i respectfully disagree.

while extremely similar in many regards, from my personal experience at least, they have enough not in common to keep the 'localities' separate, at minimum.

kind of like a desert phase cal king vs. a coastal phase phase cal king. same species, for sure, but just enough differences 'personality' wise to not want to mix the two.

subtle differences that evolved over thousands and thousands of years in isolation from other populaces.

hey thats cool the op asked for opinions and i stated mine. i will respectfully agree to disagree
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

i wasn't trying to change you mind thomas. i'm kind of a lumper as well.

personally, i think sinaloae, nelsoni, arcifera, conanti, and campbelli (and western ruthveni - to a lesser extent) are all more closely related than what the current consensus would have us believe.

what i was saying was their 'personality' is different, and again this is just from my personal experience with the two, nelsoni aren't anywhere near as inquisitive as sinaloae - and i think it just has to do with differing evolutionary environments.

that's why i made the analogy with coastal vs desert cals. desert cals i've had in the past were more likely to musk when handled and eat whatever i put near them (dud eggs, their potential mates, my fingers) - while coastals were typically calmer (again, in my experience) and more handleable.

i agree with what you've said in the past about getula, being getula, being getula - but triangulum, on the other hand, needs a little redistricting.

its all good... sure nice to have some civilty on the forum CHEERS!

i agree triangulum is Not like getula as far as classification goes but also Not totally differant either. imho its taxonomy gone wild simply trying to justify their work on whats what. sinaloan/nelson have a lg.shared range but again imho essentially are the same snake, and so called meristics like RBR, etc are simple phenotypical traits that can be bred for from either holotype again IMHO. as far as personality goes i beleive you have to add into that equation individuality as well and quite frankly ive not seen that much of a differance in either. and really, would personality quantify a ssp.?
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

So the reason I started this post is because I recently bought some sinaloae and nelsoni and now am questioning if I got what I bought. I'm so happy and thankful for the way this thread has taken off and for all the wondeful help that has been offered. Doug and Brian, are just a few who provided very specific answers and insight. I understand the RBR count now and the head/neck patterning as ways to differentiate the two. What's confusing is having animals that have a low RBR count and a nelsoni type head/neck patterning.

I'm excited to work with these neat snakes and hopefully I'll produce some cool animals in the future!

Good deal my friend!!

You did receive some good responses, and I am glad to see that they helped.

My thoughts, as well as others I know, are that, as brothers in herps, we like to help each other, and LOVE it when someone DOES get what they pay for, and HATE it when someone pays for something, and due to other's selfishness from breedings way back, DO NOT get what they paid for.

Keep us posted!!
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Genesis 1:1

The group I bought (from more than one seller) are:

1.0 adult T Albino
1.0 adult Striped het Albino
0.2 sub-adult Albinos het Stripe
0.1 adult Albino
0.1 sub-adult albino
1.0 adult Vanishing Pattern

My friend is getting out of colubrids and has agreed to trade me the few sinaloans and nelsons he has in trade for some of my ball pythons. He has an adult wild caught sinaloan female that should be fun to work with. Can't get more pure than that as long as she's really a sinaloan.

I'm currently looking them all over with the indicators you all provided to see if I can tell what's what. You'll notice I didn't mention Nelsons or Sinaloan in my list above. I plan on emailing pics of them all to a few people to get their thoughts and opinions as I want to produce nice examples that you'll all be proud of.

"He has an adult wild caught sinaloan female that should be fun to work with"

hmmmm, Did he "mule" this W/C Sinaloan back across the border along with his load of heroin or something??..LOL!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I'm not supposed to say how he got her as part of the deal, but I can't wait to see her in person!

From reading your list, I'd say that all of them are nelsoni (or strongly influenced by nelsoni). Love to see photos of the ones that you think may be sinaloan.
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Joe

under the Black Panther nelsoni post above.

-Cole