Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been seriously thinking about expanding my collection recently. I have been interested in the "nitida" L.g.californiae for a couple of years. Info on this locality type is very hard to find. Is their a reason these melanistic kings are so uncommon or possibly unpopular? Also what is the range of the form are we talking like as far south Baja as say La Paz or no?

That is something that I have always wondered also. I owner a 1.2 of nitida and a 1.1 conjuncta at one point, and the nitida were definitely the coolest of the California kings that I have ever kept. I do see them offered every once and a while here on the classifieds of this website. But why are they not as popular or offered as often??
I don't know about demand or if they would be a good seller because I never did get around to breeding mine. I gifted them away.

Apparently Grismer,(2002) states that that intermediate snakes are the types most abundant where the nitida and conjuncta occur. The nitida form inhabits along the eastern foothills of the Sierra la Laguna from around Santiago to San Jose del Cabo, and Mira Flores appears to have the highest densities of these snakes.

It seems that the most pronounced banded "conjuncta" type animals range from approximately El Triunfo on south through the Cape region. It is said that snakes with darker-edged white bands can also be found as far north as Catavina in northern Baja.

I was vending at the Repticon show in Orlando about two years ago, and I happened to walk by a guys table that had all sorts of stuff on it. I saw a bunch of different types of kingsnakes at one areah, and immediately noticed a vague, stripe going down the back of one of the solid dark brown hatchlings, and I instantly knew it was a very nice "nitida" morph. This snake was marked as an MBK, and I pointed it out to him that this was a very textbook nitida phase Cal. king. He looked real surprised and told me one of his younger helpers there apparently mislabeled it. I was like,..."he sure did..LOL".

Anyway, I would have JUMPED all over getting a pair of them, as he had them labeled at a VERY ridiculously low price to begin with, but later on I noticed that he even dropped the pice a few bucks more!. He was practically GIVING them away at $22.00 each for killer textbook nitida specimens, but I just had too many other projects to deal with at home as it was, so I reluctantly passed. But WOW!, that was certainly one of the best deals on a nice unique king I have ever seen...geeez!

I also agree about some of the less "eye-popping" forms of snakes being more overlooked and underrated quite often in the hobby. Some of this has to do with people knowing absolutely nothing about them anyway. Many times you can only know of certain things if you have snake books and notice them in the books, then they become more interesting if you start getting a bit familiar with the natural history os certain snakes. Unfortunately, It seems that people in the hobby don't read about snakes nearly as much as they used to because of the internet, and do more popping around on the net noticing and focusing more on pretty colors and patterns in photos they see rather than learning more about the snakes themselves and their natural history.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I was seriously thinking about adding some Rat Snakes, I am probably going to locate a pair of these this month or next, good time of year to look for them as well. At least I made up my mind.

if you do decide to get a pair of rats i personally think there's none better than the bairds.

a truly underrated rat snake.

I am very heavily considering getting a Bairds.
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Genesis 1:1

Very well said, Doug. There's a trio or 3 (don't know the sexs) that have been for sell for ever in the classifieds here and they are not even over priced.

Thanks Ross,....

It does seem weird that they wouldn't move in that length of time, but certain types are just like that I guess. I couldn't find them when I just looked, but it isn't surprising they were there a very long while regardless.

Best of luck with all of your nice Cal. kings this season!. Among several others you have, that light milk chocolate hypo banded morph is just awesome!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

Yeah, they're gone. They were on the last page. Maybe they will pop up again if the add expired. Don't know if it works that way. Thanks, man! My friend has a trio of those hets and I held back a male to breed to the moma hypo. Maybe we will prove her out with a bunch of baby hypos in a few years. Fingers crossed.

Yeah, that would be awesome!. What a happy day that will be for you guys when you finally see extremely light colored hatchlings pipping!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

I was trying to sell a single sub adult female I was raising up after my 4 year old son decided to let her mate escape. I have been offering her for about a year, off and on, at shows and online. I think I got 1 email about her that never went anywhere, and lots of interest at shows since she looks pretty cool, but no takers. Price was pretty low for what she is, just no interest.

I really like some of the local specific morphs of cal kings (nitida, palomar ghost, blue eyed blond) but the market is just not there.

Pics.....

I remember that nitida. Its a shame there is not much interest out there for them. I think it might have to do with the fact that a lot of Cal king morphs have been available for so long. Now all the new stuff coming out has diverted the attention.

Yeah, that's the male that's MIA. I decided to give up trying to give them away for next to nothing and just keep them for myself. Maybe he will turn up someday, of I'll find the right mate for her? Here's a pic of the female.

I bred a Blizzard (albino & hypermelanistic) to a wild-caught Carlsbad striper and kept some of the striped babies (double hets for albino & hypermelanistic) and then bred those back to each other and got some hypermelanistic stripers.

Kerby...

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I've spent two decades herping Baja with many trips a year being done. With that I've spent a great amount of time in The Cape region with conjuncta and nitida being the focus of many nights. Mira Flores in my experience is where you find the nitida forum almost solely. Conjuncta is much more wide spread. The dark (Classic conjunta/nitida forums) is found only south of La Paz. North of La Paz The nitida phase is absent and the Conjunta return back to the black and white californiae phase. The thin bands and pattern however does not change for over a hundred miles to the north.

True nitida and conjunta have not been imported legal or illegally in over 20 years. The original (Which at one time were very common) pretty almost completely disappeared from the herp scene no latter then the mid 1990's. The interest wasn't there and they were notorious for being problem feeders. Very few true Cape Kings are being bred anymore and on a rare occasion one will show up out of nowhere.

Also many of the conjunta being advertised are not the real deal. There is no such thing as a black and white conjuncta. Sorry to bum some of you out. That phase is completely absent in the Cape region. The ones that are on KS adds here and there are more or less from the ciudad constitucion area far north of La Paz and the kings there are so common its almost ridiculous some nights with the sheer numbers of them being found.

The real few Cape Kings that are left, history can be easily traced. If you are looking for them , trace it back to the original collector. Otherwise I wouldn't give the other (Supposed) Cape Kings out there in the market the time of day.

Hope this helps and makes sense. I'm in a rush out the door.

PL

Whoa! Great post Paul. Thanks for getting this information out here..

But again for the purist naysayer hybridizers. This again proves most king and other colubrids are crossed and ya'll need to stop being divisive and detrimantal to herpetoculture.

It is a snake-in-a-box and just enjoy it or learn about the ecology and go find your own in the field..IF that is your thing~

But don't allienate the hybrids/crosses/ intergrades/unnatural intergrades ect,. when in fact that is what most of you have. But there is nothing wrong with having that and have other things. Your interests can vary within this hobby. If you want locality specimens then do as Paul said..find someone who you can trace the original parantage back or just find them yourself. If you want a pretty snake. Thenget a generic or a hybrid. We are all in this together and the ridiculous anymosity because of this subject is what has brought down this forum and caused so many people to dislike each other to the point of forming clicks and ganging up on each other..
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www.Bluerosy.com

Ok, there are many people that do exactly what you say and collect their own and breed locality animals collected themselves or purchased from trusted sources and bloodlines.

There are people that collect and breed snakes for a certain look or mutation, designer animals if you will.

I like both,I have both in my collection.

To be honest my opinion is the locality animals are very important for a large number of reasons.

For an example there might be a time when a certain species is threatened or endangered or collection and importation is illegal for other reasons. It would be essential for hobbyists to have those given species available in captivity in its wild type.

You agree with that at least, right?

I don't think you read my post.

You basically agreed with what i said.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Alot of these animals cannot be collected anymore and anyone thinking of hybrizing should be aware of that. It shouldn't be considered "hating" to point that out as long as it's done respectfully.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Aaron,
I think you missed my point.

With all spouting of the evils of hybrids. Those same people have hybrid snakes they think are locality pure. What is being preserved is not. As long as you put two snakes in a box and selectivly breed, they are not pure anymore anyway. Then there are those nefariuos backrounds that come from different lines.

Really it is all about what makes "us" happy. The snakes are fine in the wild and will continue to be so without our help.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I did get your point. I was just adding something that I thought worth mentioning. As for this "As long as you put two snakes in a box and selectivly breed, they are not pure anymore anyway."
I don't agree with that. It depends on what you breed. While snakes may sometimes be selective about who they breed to in the wild they are also very willing to breed almost anything that crosses their path at the right time.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

As long as one anyone cannot trace the exact locality data they probably have a hybrid. As was in this case with conjunta and nitada.

This:

"Most guys have no idea there their stock is a mixed up mess and it's not there fault. There's so much mixed up junk out there now it's hard to kept track of what is pure and what is not. Each generation gets worse and there's not really nothing that can be done about. What irks me are the guys that knowingly have the "crap" and advertise it as "real" That's why there's so much of the bogus stuff out their because of guys like that. Then you have the guys that realize they bought "crap" and try to get their money back buy selling the now realized "crap" as real. If you want the real deal make sure you get a 100% trace to the collector or go get it yourself. It sucks but that's the only way to be sure anymore with allot of the stuff out there. Especially from Mexico and Baja.
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www.Bluerosy.com

As long as one anyone cannot trace the exact locality data they probably have a hybrid. As was in this case with conjunta and nitada.

Rainer I think hybrid might not be the word we would use with the explanation Paul was giving about the nitida. They are a Cal king morph that (according to PL) were selectively bred to the striped Cal kings to get a straiter stripe. I just want to make that clear so others don't get the impression conjunta and nitida are hybrids, but have rather lost their locality pureness. But yeah, in that quote you pasted, hybrid can definitely be a possibility when applied to what's possible with all the mexican stuff.

Rainer I think hybrid might not be the word we would use with the explanation Paul was giving about the nitida. They are a Cal king morph that (according to PL) were selectively bred to the striped Cal kings to get a straiter stripe. I just want to make that clear so others don't get the impression conjunta and nitida are hybrids, but have rather lost their locality pureness. But yeah, in that quote you pasted, hybrid can definitely be a possibility when applied to what's possible with all the mexican stuff.

Absolutly correct.

But i use the term "hybrid" here loosly. Only because people here use it to describe any form of unatural cross..
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www.Bluerosy.com

Ok cool. I get your meaning now. The reason why I never get involved with these hybrid discussions is because I agree with a lot of the points made on both sides. And because of that, I see this as a never ending battle. There's also personality conflicts here that don't help the situation either. I personally don't see the point in bashing hybrids when its going to happen anyway. Newbee's or those without knowledge or appreciation of what's found in nature, are more likely to cross different localities, natural color variants, subspecies, and species. There will always be those new comers and long time keepers with their own interests and ideas. I'm not big on keeping anything that's not locality, but everyone else may do what they wish. Even long time established locality snakes could have had something else thrown in the mix a while back. Nothing is guaranteed pure in this hobby. But those are just my thoughts on the subject. I'm not trying to stop anyone from debating here because to be honest, I get a kick out of it. lol

You do realize that your reasoning is the reason that it..............oh forget it. Its pointless to try and explain it to someone that cant understand or doesn't want too. To the OP I think your learned what to look for like Paul said. Stear clear of the hybrid crap out there!
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

I fully agree. And the fact that there are already countless misrepresented, questionable, and unknown types of snakes out there in the hobby certainly doesn't justify making countless more on PURPOSE for chrissakes.

All the silly "pseudo-justifications" I continually hear will never, ever, EVER! change this fact.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Doug,

My point that was so misunderstood (and you know this about me because you know I am a locality nut as well) is that to keep fighting a losing battle over purity when the only way to know is to get the snakes yourself or from a reliable source.

To slam the hobby and keep repeating that hybrids are evil is pointless. It is PEOPLE that are NOT KNOWING!...and that was my point. Not knowing means they are either lack IQ or lack information.

So you see, the joke is on all the people who are themselves responsible. The same ones who THOUGHT they had nitda , conjuncta etc.

That is why i said is "whatever makes one happy" . The snakes themselves in the wild will be fine.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer, without fighting about it. Explain to me how saying hybrids are bad is dividing and bad for the hobby. Saying that people are stupid and NOT KOWING seems to be more dividing to the hobby. How can you blame the people who buy snakes at a show from you. Its up to the people that sell animals to teach people about what they produce and what a animal is.

"So you see, the joke is on all the people who are themselves responsible."

Thats right! The people who sold the crap as something else. All to get a couple more dollars. To say that you cant get a pure snake anymore and to give up shows a lack of IQ. There are plenty of people out there that breed there animals to stay the way they were made. Not being lazy all in the hopes of producing a worthless $4000 kingsnake. What is it you know more than anyone? That what your saying stems from what you do?

"Do you really think that by dividing this hobby, it will clean up mankind and A L L the snakes?"

Thats it, its broken so why try to fix it? LAZY!
There were no so called lines before you and another made that up. You call your costumers stupid and then blame them for the lack of pure animals. Im sure I missed your point once again but that what you said.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

Rainer, without fighting about it. Explain to me how saying hybrids are bad is dividing and bad for the hobby. Saying that people are stupid and NOT KOWING seems to be more dividing to the hobby.

I did not call anyone stupid.. I said they either lack information (because of laziness) or lack IQ. Either way, ignorance is not an excuse. It is what it is.

You call your costumers stupid and then blame them for the lack of pure animals. Im sure I missed your point once again but that what you said.

As far as what comes from my collection. I do educate my customers on what is locality and pure all the time. And i would not say they are stupid. They have choices and choose what is interesting to them.

I can give you many examples of this when selling my snakes. When i explain in detail the history of certain morphs and specimens, it is usually met with glazed over eyes and disinterest. I even try to sway them in anyway i can and point them to the choice locality Florida kings. Same thing happened when I was breeding rosy boas.

Thats right! The people who sold the crap as something else. All to get a couple more dollars. To say that you cant get a pure snake anymore and to give up shows a lack of IQ. There are plenty of people out there that breed there animals to stay the way they were made. Not being lazy all in the hopes of producing a worthless $4000 kingsnake. What is it you know more than anyone? That what your saying stems from what you do?

So now you are turning this against me? You sir, are pathetic and not worth my time!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer, Im not trying to turn this on anything. You still didnt explain how saying hybrids are bad divides anything. Dont get all standoffish about it. Talk about it normal. Explain the division.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

Personally I don't think hybrids are actually bad and I don't think guys like Rainer are the problem. The only thing I don't like about what Rainer says is it could be sometimes interpreted as purists should keep silent. I don't think that's what he really intends though.

When I say purists should speak out I don't mean they should speak out about the evils of hybrids because they're not necessarily evil. I just mean they should speak out about the potential risks of hybrids. The risk is that distinct forms(that can no longer be collected legally) will be lost from the hobby, that's all.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Personally I don't think hybrids are actually bad and I don't think guys like Rainer are the problem. The only thing I don't like about what Rainer says is it could be sometimes interpreted as purists should keep silent. I don't think that's what he really intends though.

When I say purists should speak out I don't mean they should speak out about the evils of hybrids because they're not necessarily evil. I just mean they should speak out about the potential risks of hybrids. The risk is that distinct forms(that can no longer be collected legally) will be lost from the hobby, that's all.

Well you almost got it. I think. I am not against discussing purity, loacle specific etc. So no, I don't think it should be kept silent. But the impending idea that it will preserve forms when they can no longer be "legally" collected is what i worry about. But for a different reason..

Like I said many times i am more of a locality specif freak than most of you. I have done that for many decades.

What i am saying is that different divions should be respected. If you like hots, then you like hots. if you like genric, then great. If you like locality info with you snakes then that is great.

Personally i think keeping hots does more damage to the hobby with potential LEGAL risks for all of us...If you have neighbors when they hear you keep snakes. What is their first question.. Are they poisoness(venemous)?

I think that preserving a line or making new recessive double- triple-quad homozygots, or creating new mixed hybrids, breeding for purity by not using selective breeding (LOL) etc. Can be taken to extremes. To each his own. But to say that preservation of a species from broad locales or generic locales will help the hobby is ridiculous. To fight about it and say we have to keep them because we will no longer be able to get them legally is also ridiclous. Because when it gets to that point ALL snakes will be illegal irregardless. Otherise if someone wants a triple glowing hybrid that shoots lightning out of its ass or a a pair of wild collected anulatta that were found no more than 25 yards apart. They will seek it out and find it by doing some reasearch AND because that is what they want to keep in a box.

Explain to me this. What does 'helping the hobby" mean to all of you? Preserving our rights by making sure we don't get bad press? Making sure politicians won't keep adding new regulations?
Having ridiculous collectiong laws enacted by blanketing all species within a state?

tell me where all this arguing about what we keep and will actually solve anything or help herpetoculture as a whole?

If you want to preserve a spp , then go out and collect it yourself and breed it(Simple isn't it!). Maybe it will last a couple generations before someone else gets a hold of it and disolves it. But what are we doing in the long run to eefect this hobby and preserve it?

What you are really are accomplishing is to force your ideology onto others by saying IF one breeds hybrids, then it will pollute the hobby. Which on the surface sounds real self-righteous and all. But holds no water in the real world and the brow beating these forums take on this issue has caused more division than anything.

i would rather discuss the efforts of furthering herpetoculture rather than always getting sucked into the old "hybrids are bad" discussion. I would rather we move forward and discuss all sorts of herpetoculture endevours and discuss that. With respect to all. I think there is a lot more we could talk about and learn. But as soon as this subject come up. Eyes are closed and hears are shut. How about looking at hybrids, crosses and learning from them so that you CAN tell the difference? We are basically kicking against the gourd.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Rainer, without fighting about it."

What is it you know more than anyone? That what your saying stems from what you do?

Sir,
You said in the beginning of your post you don't want to fight about it. But then you turn around in the same post and attack me and my business practices. That is like saying you respect me to my face and then talk trash.

at least you did not do it behind my back. You did it here for all to see. LOL!

You just proved to you are no better than those who misrepresent animals.

Like I aaid. You are not worth my time.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Rainer, I am not attacking you. I just responded o what you said. I dont care about you I just want you to explain the division. Why cant you explain what you say. Im not trying to attack anyone. I just wanted to break down what you said. Everyone always misses your point. You say things that have no meaning. So explain them? Im sure you can. Why dont you?
Aaron, I Dont think Hybrids are evil I think they are worthless. I think what you said is correct.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

Explain to me how saying hybrids are bad is dividing and bad for the hobby.

saying your opinion that they are bad is NOT dividing, its when a person is continually blatantly harrassed and attacked simply because they breed hybrids see THAT is very dividing. like your new lil signature, just a FYI i guess you think its cute or funny to manipulate one of my statements but really as im sure you know it goes "i fight ignorance with knowledge" and i do so all the time. in case you didnt know the average public HATE snakes well, not after attending one of my hands on snake shows ive converted 1000's of people and i do that through FIGHTING IGNORANCE WITH KNOWLEDGE. i bring people into this hobby i beleive in unity NOT division. we are all snake folks or we wouldnt be here and "we" are a very small majority of the population and as such should, could, be united IF we all wanted to be. i breed hybrids as well as trueblue locales
S O W H A T!!!
makes me no better or worse than anyone else breeding snakes. why harrass, hate, and divide? well i guess thats just WHO you are huh gerry?
sad

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Thomas, I dont hate you or anyone that makes anything. You guys take it like that. You can do what ever you want. I dont say anything against that. What I dont like, is my opinion. No one brought up you or Rainre. Rainer said,

"Whoa! Great post Paul. Thanks for getting this information out here..

But again for the purist naysayer hybridizers. This again proves most king and other colubrids are crossed and ya'll need to stop being divisive and detrimantal to herpetoculture.

It is a snake-in-a-box and just enjoy it or learn about the ecology and go find your own in the field..IF that is your thing~

But don't allienate the hybrids/crosses/ intergrades/unnatural intergrades ect,. when in fact that is what most of you have. But there is nothing wrong with having that and have other things. Your interests can vary within this hobby. If you want locality specimens then do as Paul said..find someone who you can trace the original parantage back or just find them yourself. If you want a pretty snake. Thenget a generic or a hybrid. We are all in this together and the ridiculous anymosity because of this subject is what has brought down this forum and caused so many people to dislike each other to the point of forming clicks and ganging up on each other.."

out of no where.

Nothing was said towards anyone but he comes out with this. Now I agree that there should not be fighting on here. This thread started as a question that was answered perfectly. Then he came in fishing for a argument. I stoped fighting with you guys about this last time. You guys always come looking for it then are suppprised when you get it. There is no division. I like you two, dont feel left out. However I dont have to like what you do.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

The hybrid debate will surface again. Just trying to get you guys to "think".
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www.Bluerosy.com

You guys always come looking for it then are suppprised when you get it.

AHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAHAAAHAHAHAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
yeah ok gerry whatever you say.
thanks for showing/sharing who/what you really are all about.
,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

they hate the haters for hating more than the haters hate those that hate for what they create..LMBO!!!

Don't hate what ya mate!, don't procrastinate and wait, create THEN hate!..HAHAAA!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

i think that is a bob dylan song
like this song WE were born with a snake in each of our fists while a hurricane was blowing...
crank it up

,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

If it's true that we are here to help others, then what exactly are the others here for?

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www.Bluerosy.com

Doug,

I think you have the makings of a very catchy underground electronica song in the making.

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Genesis 1:1

Thomas
What I find funny is that if one of these anti hybrid posters buys a diamond engament ring for their sigficant other. They will make sure that a jeweler looks at it and makes sure it is not a fake. What worse is, after they give the ring, their own wives or fiance's don't even trust them and have the ring checked out themselves.

So why trust a classified ad or a guy in a reptile show that has 40 different types of snakes on his table and blame this on hybrids?

Lets all get rid of ALL cubic zirconia engagement rings to presevre marriages. We don't want any costume jelwelry because when we buy something we won't know the difference. LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

i hear ya, the sad thing is how/why would a spouse care if the devotion is there isnt the ring just a symbol for others to see...SAD... its kinda like the haters here, how could you hate ANY snake?!?!or the person that produced it?! hybrid or otherwise i just dont get it.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

right on schedule........I'm surprised it took you this long.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

your manlove pics are really disturbing enough already
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Wrong photo there Davis, you must have clicked on one of your naked man photos on your computer by mistake. Delete all those and look at the post again. Make sure you are looking at the one were he is looking down at his WATCH this time.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

cl1.psychtests.com/take_test.php?idRegTest=2888

"Wrong photo there Davis, you must have clicked on one of your naked man photos on your computer by mistake. Delete all those and look at the post again. Make sure you are looking at the one were he is looking down at his WATCH this time.

~Doug "
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www.Bluerosy.com

........yep, it's always recognizable to everyone.

I'll protect ya from all those haters little buddy!!

HAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

.
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

" I fully agree. And the fact that there are already countless misrepresented, questionable, and unknown types of snakes out there in the hobby certainly doesn't justify making countless more on PURPOSE for chrissakes.

All the silly "pseudo-justifications" I continually hear will never, ever, EVER! change this fact. "

I hear ya. Very reminiscent of drug addicts, users, and dealers, saying stuff like:

" Well, if it grew out of the earth, then we SHOULD smoke it!"

" The Pharmaceutical companies dispense drugs, so what is wrong with me selling my nickle bag of weed? "

" It makes me feel good! It can't be all bad! "

" Can't we all just get along "...( sounding of a long hit off of a bong )

There is nothing concrete, factual, or consistent, about the jibberish you read on this forum, when questions are asked over and over to explain a point to condone not being responsible and to promote biological perversion, and the miserable best that all can be come up with is, " well..how do you know ANYTHING is pure unless you catch it yourself? " Lazy answer.

That, my friends, is pure laziness. Ask a question: Expect a reasonable answer, not a response that is basically AVOIDING giving an answer, and coming back with another question. Blaming someone for not knowing the full story, when the proper info may not have been either available at time of questioning, or given, is another sad cop out. Since I know a thing or two about human behavior, cop-outs like that are a sad attempt to reliquish guilt from guilt parties. That would be like telling a wife, who was lied to by her husband about some secret life he led and kept completely hidden, that it was HER fault for not knowing! Puh-leaze!!

Oh, and the real funny thing now is a few new words some have learned: Divide/Divider! " waaaaaaaaah...you don't agree with me..you are a divider!! " HA HA HA!!! Puh-leaze!!!

" Dougie....you are a divider!!!!! " HAHA!!!!!!

And for those who say that they care about snakes, and the hobby, when they themselves have done unbelievable things to others on this forum, breeders in FL, and much less giving scenic route rides for snakes thru the US mail....save it. All is well known, documented, and is not forgotten.

NEXT!!!!!

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Genesis 1:1

There is nothing concrete, factual, or consistent, about the jibberish you read on this forum

i agree!!! this is especially true of your posts billy
next
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

You do realize that your reasoning is the reason that it..............oh forget it. Its pointless to try and explain it to someone that cant understand or doesn't want too.

beleive me I know more about this than anyone on this forum (except one or two other people). I know more about this than anyone.

As I mentioned to Doug . Ignorance (or not knowing) is the responsiblty of the keeper. If you buy something and later discover it is not what you thought because you trusted Mr. "Snake Broker" at the reptile show and later scream the evils of hybrids. Is nothing but YOUR FAULT! If you people don't like it stop blaming others and look at yourseleves. People will always be people. They will rob, steal cheat, lack information because they were lazy or lack IQ. But ignorance is not an excuse to blame the hobby and attack what other are doing or what they like. It will never solve the hybrid /purity issue so drop it already!

No matter what king or milksnakes you buy. Whether it looks like the real deal or if it is a blatant hybrid. Do you really think by blaming and causing division that hybrids are evil, when in fact it could be any "pure looking" snake you purchase be a fake/crossed,hybrid etc.

Do you really think that by dividing this hobby, it will clean up mankind and A L L the snakes?! LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Very cool post indeed. Thats good to know that most of the ones out there are not the real deal. Someone posted a snake they bought as something else the other day. The guy had no clue. Thats the "threat" to the hobby. The fact that someone out there has the real thing and worked at keeping it that way is really cool. I have seen some post of herp trips down there and it is beautiful. If you get a chance you should post some pics of the two species in the wild. I cant wait to go down there. Thanks.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

I've done a couple post on Baja but it's been awhile. You can go to my facebook page and I have a couple hundred pics of field herping with a good amount of it being in Baja and MX. Also in the latest issue of Herp Nation Magazine There's a fairly extensive article I wrote on herping baja in the past 20 years. Lots of accounts and cool pics of herps i've found down there. Check it out!

PL

Thanks, I will do that.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

Paul,
Is you Facebook page under Paul Lynum? Because i found your page but there was nothing there on snakes.

I was hoping to see some pics from w/c baja kings.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Your privacy settings have your pics unavailable.

Anybody that wants to see my pics on FB has to hit the "friend request" link. Once I get the request I will approve then you can see the pics.

PL

....thought you were running out the door.....LOL.
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Jerry Kruse

UPDATED!
www.zonatas.com

And God said, "Let there be zonata subspecies for all to ponder..."

I've spent two decades herping Baja with many trips a year being done. With that I've spent a great amount of time in The Cape region with conjuncta and nitida being the focus of many nights. Mira Flores in my experience is where you find the nitida forum almost solely. Conjuncta is much more wide spread. The dark (Classic conjunta/nitida forums) is found only south of La Paz. North of La Paz The nitida phase is absent and the Conjunta return back to the black and white californiae phase. The thin bands and pattern however does not change for over a hundred miles to the north.

The real few Cape Kings that are left, history can be easily traced. If you are looking for them , trace it back to the original collector. Otherwise I wouldn't give the other (Supposed) Cape Kings out there in the market the time of day.

Thanks so much for that info, Paul. It answers all the questions I ever had about that morph. And I'm glad you brought up the fact the conjunta morph is often mislabeled around here. They are supposed to be dark like nitida, not black and white. I just have one question if you are still out there. The majority, if not all, the nitida I've seen offered for sale have a perfectly strait stripe, no cross bars or waves in the stripe. Is that what you've seen in the wild too?

Nice observation, Ross! No, I've never seen a straight striped nitida in the wild. I very seriously doubt there is lol!!! Those straight striped snakes were breed into nice striped CA Kings long ago to make them more desirable because the wavy/messy pattern were just to ugly to many.

Unfortunately, like many have brought up, many of the snakes (Like the rarer locale or morphs from Mexico and Baja) are not correctly represented anymore. Very few guys have the real stuff anymore and it's kept under lock and key with them and a few die hards that have personal hands on field experience with an area or morph cause they understand it and the animal. If you know you have the real deal theres one thing you don't want and that's a questionable animal thrown into the mix. You can still find the origional stuff and acquire it, you just have to do the research and trace the original lines back.

Most guys have no idea there their stock is a mixed up mess and it's not there fault. There's so much mixed up junk out there now it's hard to kept track of what is pure and what is not. Each generation gets worse and there's not really nothing that can be done about. What irks me are the guys that knowingly have the "crap" and advertise it as "real" That's why there's so much of the bogus stuff out their because of guys like that. Then you have the guys that realize they bought "crap" and try to get their money back buy selling the now realized "crap" as real. If you want the real deal make sure you get a 100% trace to the collector or go get it yourself. It sucks but that's the only way to be sure anymore with allot of the stuff out there. Especially from Mexico and Baja.

PL

Yes, I'm sure there is a lot of that going on that you are talking about. Thanks for the info on the stripe. I'll never look at nitida the same again.

Paul, you said it man. Thanks.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

>>Unfortunately, like many have brought up, many of the snakes (Like the rarer locale or morphs from Mexico and Baja) are not correctly represented anymore. Very few guys have the real stuff anymore and it's kept under lock and key with them and a
>>Most guys have no idea there their stock is a mixed up mess and it's not there fault. There's so much mixed up junk out there now it's hard to kept track of what is pure and what is not. Each generation gets worse and there's not really nothing that can be done about. What irks me are the guys that knowingly have the "crap" and advertise it as "real" That's why there's so much of the bogus stuff out their because of guys like that. Then you have the guys that realize they bought "crap" and try to get their money back buy selling the now realized "crap" as real. If you want the real deal make sure you get a 100% trace to the collector or go get it yourself. It sucks but that's the only way to be sure anymore with allot of the stuff out there. Especially from Mexico and Baja.

This kinda sums up the hobby as it stands today!.....
Great posts Paul.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I had some Nitida back in the 80's that came from Ric Blair. They were dark brown and had a very crooked broken dark gold stripe down the back. I bought them as nitida and they were a little expensive. I'm not sure if they were but they were different.

Those were the real deal. A fair amount of them came into the states in the mid 1980's and Ric got some. They were really expensive when they first showed up. Going on an average of $300 apiece. The originals were snagged up quickly. However, the guys that bought them appeared to the only people interested in them. The price of them and the babies was soon down the toilet. I remember guys at reptile shows in the late 80's and early 90's would sell out except for the Cape Kings and they were the cheapest thing on the table!!!

Those were the real deal. A fair amount of them came into the states in the mid 1980's and Ric got some. They were really expensive when they first showed up. Going on an average of $300 apiece. The originals were snagged up quickly. However, the guys that bought them appeared to the only people interested in them. The price of them and the babies was soon down the toilet. I remember guys at reptile shows in the late 80's and early 90's would sell out except for the Cape Kings and they were the cheapest thing on the table

I remmeber that to. And then seeing them drop in price and sitting on tables.

I just think people just didn't know much about them. They could have been as common as cal kings in S.D. and covered a large area.

I wonder if people just never connected to that king because they really didn't know what they were or the history, location etc.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I did get a pair about 6 or 7 years ago that looked real similar to what I had in the 80's and I bred them and hatched out some albinos. I just figured that they were probably not pure. Probably had some albino cal king mixed in. The babies did look like an albino nitida with the weird stripe but I didn't keep them and ended up getting rid of them.