Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have been meaning to post on this subject for some time now.
After reading the posts below...I figured now is a prime time to post this message.

I have used vermiculite for more than 20 years...I have experimented with perlite and with a vermiculite/perlite combo.
I have seen several other substrate free methods and I have played with them too. If you get the moisture content correct, any of these will hatch your eggs.

However it should be pointed out that vermiculite is very dangerous. I cannot believe it is even legal to sell vermiculite.
Just do a google search of "The Dangers of Vermiculite".
The more you read about it...the less likely you will be to continue using it.
I you would like to develop asbestosis and mesothelioma then feel free to continue using it.
I now even have some concerns about possible dangers from perlite. It may be possible for perlite dust to cause silicosis.

Both of these mineral products are very dusty. The US Government has known about the dangers posed by vermiculite for many years...yet they do not impose restrictions on the sale or usage of this product. There is a lot of controversy involving a large vermiculite mining company in Montana...and another even larger vermiculite mining facility in Canada. We are talking about BIG DOLLARS here. Basically it is a cover-up.

I strongly urge you to read everything you can about vermiculite before ever using it again. This is NOT A JOKE!
Check out the link I have provided at the bottom of the page.

After learning this information, I switched to using no substrate
1.) I now place small deli containers right side up into a clear plastic incubation box. I fill these containers up half way with water.

2.) Next, I pour water into the bottom of the incubation box until the water is at nearly the same level as that inside of the deli containers.

3.) I rest the plastic "egg crate-light grate" on top of the
deli containers, which are inside of my incubation box.

4.) I also include a piece of plastic craft cloth (used for hobby crafts such as latch hook stitch work) on top of the plastic egg crate. This provides better support to the eggs... and it also allows for the eggs of smaller species to be incubated.

Since there is nothing but water and sterile plastic inside with your eggs, there are little worries concerning molds, contaminants or dangerous dust particles. The incubation box is only ventilated with a few small holes on the upper sides.
I place a lid on top of incubation box to reduce water loss via evaporation. The inside top of the lid also has a piece of paper towel taped to it. This paper towel absorbs any condensation...so there is no water dripping on the eggs during incubation. I cook my Python eggs at 87-88 degrees F.
It is VERY SIMPLE! GREAT HATCH RATES!!!
If needed, I can add water by simply pouring it through the plastic grate into the bottom of the incubation box.
No worries about over hydrating the substrate...as there is no substrate...only a plastic platform.

Check out this link about the dangers of vermiculite. Do a little research and I think you will be happy to make a switch to a safer way of incubating your eggs.
Best wishes and Happy 4th of July.

Sincerely,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-245-7611
DANGERS OF VERMICULITE!

Great post Harlen, vermiculite and perlite dust particles are dangerous. When you buy a bag of ether there is a caution label in the back instructing you to wear a mask when working with the product.

Harlan,the technique you elaborated on sounds solid, do you have pictures of how you set up your incubation box so I could get a visual?

Off topic of hatching substrates but at a fire station I was assigned to they were redoing the roof. The station was built in the 1970s and the roof was tongue and groove, completely exposed on the inside. As the roofing company started scraping off the old shingles and paper a heavy dust started coming into the station covering EVERYTHING! When asked what the dust was they stated "don't worry, it's only vermiculite." I didn't think much about it at the time until I and my entire crew woke up with respiratory problems. Wheezing, coughing, watery eyes, scratchy throats. This was a year ago and haven't noticed any problems since coming off the medications our County's Risk Management Doctor had given us but I also "googled" the risks of vermiculite and was shocked. I am just glad it was brought up and filed a workers compensation exposure for anything new that may come up as a result of this.
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FireBall Reptiles

Another method that works is using natural aquarium gravel, water and some of that light grating.
It's a little heavier, but it works.
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"What is man without the beasts?
If all the beasts were gone,
men would die from great loneliness of spirit.
For what happens to the beasts,
soon happens to men.
All things are connected."

-Chief Seattle (Duwamish Tribe)

www.youtube.com/reptilenexus

You can get vermiculite without asbestos - which is really what the problem is not the vermiculite itself. I like the big chunky stuff - less dust.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

nihil facimus sed id bene facimus

Hey Tosha,

I thought the same thing until I read a little more about the whole issue. It seems that certain unnamed companies (in Canada) would like to label their product as "asbestos free". However, regardless of the size of the vermiculite chunks...it ALL has this problem. Both the larger chunk and the smaller chunk or granule vermiculite are mined from the same deposits.

Another problem is that not only is the asbestos content a concern...but all minerals known as Phyllosilicates tend to contain fibrous amphiboles. The microscopic fibers are easily inhaled. Although I would NOT suggest trying this...if you were to pour one small scoop of large chunk vermiculite from one container into another container while sunlight is shining across the container...you might be surprised by the amount of easily visible tiny dust particles that are released into the air. Things that make you go hmmm.
I am sure that I have inhaled my fare share of these particles...as have many of us here who have ever used vermiculite...so far, I have not personally experienced any problems. After reading a ton of information about the hazards related to vermiculite and weighing any potential risks to myself or my family...I have decided to never use this stuff again. I will say that it really works well for egg incubation.
(Although now I like my method MUCH BETTER! Clean and simple)

Pure vermiculite does not contain asbestos and is said to be non-toxic, but it can become contaminated over long periods if there is a presence of a secondary mineral called diopside. After millions of years of weathering, the biotite naturally turns into vermiculite and the diopside turns into asbestos.

In the production of commercial vermiculite, biotite is obtained by mining and then it is processed using hydrothermal furnaces. This process artificially weathers the biotite, thereby speeding up the transformation from biotite into vermiculite.

Please continue reading next post.

What once took millions of years to achieve, now can be accomplished with the help of a hydrothermal furnace in a matter of hours. Essentially the processing artificially weathers these mica-like minerals and the expansion of the super heated water causes the mica to exfoliate...or puff up. This process forms vermiculite. This artificial decay also leaves you with a content of the secondary mineral called diopside. Diopside continues to decay (now at a faster rate) to form asbestos or asbestos-like fibrous amphiboles. There are many different forms of these minerals...such as tremolite, winchite and richterite etc.
All of these minerals are thought to cause respiratory ailments such as: lung disease, asbestosis, silicosis and mesothelioma.

Labeling claims made by companies selling vermiculite have come into some serious question. (These are large corporations who obviously have huge investments at stake in the mining and marketing of vermiculite...not to mention that they are certainly wishing to avoid any legal claims from damages to the public!)
This is enough information to convince me that I do not wish to use vermiculite for ANYTHING.
Anyway,
Hope you are having a great season with your snakes.
Take care.
Sincerely,
Harlin Wall - WALL TO WALL REPTILES!
970-255-9255

There are similar dangers with play sand. Most play sand is a silica based product (quartz). The dust from silica has been known to cause cancer.

although i agree with the facts about vermiculite as long as the proper steps are taken it can be used safely, and i personally will continue to use it. people always worry about this stuff but your just as much likley to get hit by a car crossing the road get cancer from the bug spray you put on your body get cancer from the growth hormones used on the food you eat every day, or have a heart attack from the mcdonalds grease burgers you eat. hope you all have had a great breeding season.

Amen gsrept! For the 15-20 clutches I have every year, I'll continue to spray down my 20 shoeboxes, which involves about 15 minutes of my time a year! These mesothelioma cases you see on TV commercials involve people working for years in asbestos conditions! If I shut down every time I read about radon gas, black mold and now vermiculite, I'd be the boy in the bubble by now!

Seriously...... ugh, guess I should just give up and live in a cave in a mountain somewhere......oh wait, I might get killed by a rock slide.....there goes that idea. In all seriousness, if I ran and hid from every LITTLE danger(and I do mean little cause how much do we really deal with vermiculite each year??) there wouldn't be much life left to live. Get a grip, wear a mask if your that afraid, and move on. Guess I should sell my retics and burms too, cause after all, their is the potential they could kill me!!!!! *facepalm*!!

You are probably just as likely to get salmonella poisoning from you snakes as you are of having any issues with vermiculite...or getting lyme disease from a tick you got walking in your backyard...no?

With that said, not using vermiculite is an easy change to make so it's not a bad idea.

Isn't it supposed to be really bad also. A friend with orchids told me that once.

Wear a mask when mixing it dry.
Problem solved.
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www.strictlyballs.ca