Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok Folks please don't flame me for this, but I’m not quite clear on something, i understand that a incubator could be or is
An invaluable tool for someone who depends on this for food or reimbursement for a large collection or etc. etc. etc. etc.....
I also understand the need for some folks to have a controlled environment or controlled conditions for high priced or highly sought after snakes,
But my question is for alittle guy or girl (like me) who just wants to mate a few snakes for fun or educational reasons and maybe get a few hatchlings out of it and possibly hook a few friends up,
Is there really any reason to separate the eggs from their mother? My logic tells me that if i keep the snake optimal temps and just let nature do its "thing" that everything should work out just fine? Right?
I mean we can only imagine what these snakes indure in the wild
To satisfy this instinct to reproduce...........
Am i just completely wrong? Is this just a foolish novice speculation?
Please share your thoughts....
DJW

Kingsnakes have eggs on their menu, so the mother may very well eat the eggs. Plus it's easier to maintain optimal humidity for the eggs if you incubate them in a separate container. In the wild, most snakes lay their eggs in a warm, moist area (such as a rotting log) then crawl off and forget about them as if they never existed. Most snakes do not have any maternal instincts.
Jeff Robbe

>>Kingsnakes have eggs on their menu, so the mother may very well eat the eggs.

Jeff makes a good point, and it reminds me of an idea i've been collecting feedback on for some time. Many of you know milksnakes--let's take hondos as a good example--are sometimes said to "resorb" their eggs: they're progressing as though they're gravid, it seems you can even count the eggs in them, they shed, and you give them a lay box. The big day comes--and no eggs. You wait. No eggs. Finally you check out the snake and she doesn't feel as gravid as she did earlier. Has she "resorbed" the eggs?

My vets tell me a snake can't resorb an EGG. One hypothesis is that what we're feeling--even counting--are just big ova, before they've formed into eggs, and that the process ends before the egg formation is completed, the ova gradually get smaller, and the snake, of course, doesn't lay.

I've toyed with another hypothesis: the snake DOES lay, but before you discover the eggs and remove them, she eats them.

Consider: the outcome would be the same: apparently gravid snake; approaches lay date; you never find eggs; and a few days, or weeks, later, you realize she's not gravid any more. Checked only a day or so after she ate the eggs, she'd still feel gravid, you could still count the eggs, the only diff--perhaps unnoticed if you weren't considering the possibility--would be that the eggs wouldn't be down low near the cloaca any more, but would be higher int he body, in the digestive track. A few days more, and that obvious distinction would become less and less apparent.

Since I've been sharing this with people I've collected one or two accounts where people SAW the beginning of egg deposition, just one or two eggs, and the next day there were no eggs. This would seem to support the hypothesis.

Does anyone else have any observations or opinions?

To go back to the "novice" question, this would seem to further support Jeff's argument that leaving the eggs with the females wouldn't be safe.

peace
terry

Unfortunately, kingsnakes don't stay with their eggs. They try to lay them somewhere nice and then leave. The problem is that inside a cage it's pretty much impossible to create areas that are right for both the eggs and the snake. Also, the snake might hurt them or dig them up without meaning to. The good thing is that you can create a pretty cheap incubator yourself. If you're interested I probably can dig up a link for you. Heck, I've heard of people who incubate colubrid eggs on top of the fridge.
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Peter: It's OK, I'll handle it. I read a book about something like this.
Brian: Are you sure it was a book? Are you sure it wasn't NOTHING?

In the wild snakes lay their eggs under something (logs, rocks, etc..). Mostly underground where it is damp and they are not disturbed. Your snake will not incubate the eggs, they will more than likey dry up and die. Just get a tuppeware type container, drill a small hole in the lid, and put the eggs on a damp substrate (I use vermiculite). But to leave them in the open air would be bad.

Kerby...

Well... there are many differences between a snake in a cage and a snake in the wild. For one - In the wild, the snake will lay the eggs and leave them, and in a tank the snake cannot leave them because there is no where to go. If you leave them in with the snake, you run the risk of the eggs getting crushed, or turned, both of which can cause the eggs to die.

Kingsnake eggs will hatch at 80ish and most people have a place in their house that is around 80 - on top of the water heater, etc. I suggest you find a place that stays around 80-84° and remove the eggs from the cage and place them there.

Also, a basic incubator is only about 45 bucks.

Hope this helps...

TA

The main reason for the incubater is to keep the eggs moist and at the prefered temp range (which doesn't have to be that exact for a beginner). Upper 80's to low 90's. A plastic shoebox with holes in the side for ventalation makes for a cheap incubater. A clear lid is preferable so you can see the amount of condensation. I prefer spagnum..soaked and then hand squeezed to remove extra moisture, but other mediums can also be used. Keeping the eggs with their mother is not a natural act for almost all snakes some pythons and elapids do stay with them...But the bottom line is the eggs really stand little chance of hatching with the mother constantly disturbing them.
Frank

That is too high for cal king incubation temps. Constant - NO, shorts periods, okay.

Kerby...

Funny...Back in the 70's...I was incubating eggs (as described) quite successfully at those temps...And that included several litters of ratsnakes, Eastern kings, Brooks kings, Fla kings...and California kings. Back then I didn't have AC so the summer daytime temps were (inside) low 90's, the coolest it got was the mid-upper eighties at night in South Florida. We just put the shoebox back in the closet and made sure he humidity stayed high enough (measured by the amount of condensation on the clear lid).
My answer was for a beginer who was looking for the cheap easy way to incubate. not for the advanced breeder.
Frank

I keep my snake room at about 80 degrees, so i just incubate the eggs on a shelf in that room, works great. (photo: eggs on top, with yellow post-it notes; snakes in boxes below). I use sphagnum, and tupperware-type boxes. Unlike many people i don't put holes in the boxes, I just open them every 2-3 days and fan some fresh air in with the lid. Many times one or two eggs in a clutch goes bad, and when I used boxes with holes the little black fruit flies or dung flies or whatever they are would reproduce in the egg boxes. It's easier just to keep them from getting in. And it retains humidity well. Someone else pointed ouit how the clear boxes make it easy to observe condensation on the sides when humidity is satisfactorily high. You can click on the link below to see what he meant.
Terry

click here to see condensation on incubation box