Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Stumbled across this web page while searching for info on L. t. arcifera... given past threads on this subject from forum members I thought it might be interesting for those same members to read about the subject from someone that seems to have no connection here... at least I think he has no connections here... not everyone uses their real names and I don't pay enough attention to who is who any way... so Tad if you are here... nice article

The subject has resulted in some controversy in the past so... please keep it civil boys and girls, it's offered up here as food for thought no matter which view point you hold

Gerry
Co-habitating lampropeltis

Mr. Fitzgerald is not a poster here although he may lurk......I, too ran across this once......

FYI.......I have many pairs and trios co habitating.........no problems at all.
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Yes I am familiar with your views and experiences on/with the subject, along with the views of most other members that have voiced their opinions on the subject... as I said, simply thought it might be an interesting read given Tad has experimented with cohabitation... without the benefit of those opinions.

Gerry

You knew I was going to jump on this didn't you, lol. As he said there is a risk involved. Just today as luck would have it, or bad luck actually. I had a pair of Brooks together for several days for breeding porpuses. I wanted to separate them and feed them. Well, the female caught a whiff of the rats that were near by and she went into feeding mode! She grabbed the male and began to constrict. I had to break up the party. I'm not making this up. So the risk is there. I personally have kept hobby Sinloans together, and I currently keep a trio of Thayeri/Ruthies together. Yes it can be done! Would I do it with a one of a kind expensive breeder that would be hard to replace? Absolutely not. My beef here is usually with people throwing out this info that it's ok, and having it seen by a newbe with one pair of Easterns or whatever, and then ending up with one fat snake. I as well as others here have lost kings that were eaten by it's cagemates. So if you feel like rolling the dice go ahead. Like I said I have done it and am currently doing it. But I have years of experience and I let my instincts guide me on which ones I can do it with. Newbies don't have those instincts yet, but maybe that's how you get them? By making mistakes and learning from them!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Good points Jorge, and believe me, the major leaders in the hobby/industry, not only do not post on here but view, and laugh, and they acknowledge the biological attributes to the snakes with the names, KINGSNAKES, with respect and TRUE appreciation for the animals.

The part on Tad's website talking about this, stating that kings can be kept together it can be done still shows that he even is still keeping a healthy mind on the fact that there are risks. As quoted:

" Keep in mind there is risk involved but this can be eliminated or greatly reduced when a few simple husbandry practices are followed. " ( Note the term " greatly reduced. " )

" (I have not housed males together)."

" Each snake is set up individually in it's own separate cage and fed exclusively on a diet of rodents.....This is very important as it establishes their feeding habits....They are housed & fed in this manner every 4-7 days until reaching breeding size, normally 18-30 months. When it is determined they are large enough to breed they are cycled (cooled) for 2-3 months at 55-60 degree F., either separately or together....At the end of this cycling period they can be safely housed together if a few precautions are taken. ( Note this last part.." if a few precautions are taken." )

So, Tad does not raise hatchlings together, but separately, which contradicts some of the nonsense spoken about on this forum at times. Let's read further:

" The snakes must be separated when feeding, this is when a negative incident is most likely to occur. "

So, this is the main component of the basics regarding to the safety/unsafe areas that Tad has made note of.

" To recap, the main husbandry practices are: #1: start with captive produced hatchlings of the same sub-species. #2, house and feed them separately until they reach breeding size. #3, feed them rodents only. #4, once housed together as adults always separate during feeding and a few hours after. #5, don't let them go without food for extended periods of time. (2 weeks)"

Again, although I would disagree with him co-habitating kings overall, he still plays it very safe by separating during feeding, and making sure that they do not let them go without food for a long time. The last fact of what he does is a very good diagnosis of using that statement as a preventative: Meaning keeping the kings well fed. That is a preventative that is still needing to be kept in mind, proving that it is NOT something not to be cautious about, and proves the points still that it can and IS risky to kings together to begin with.

So, overall, this is the safest I have read about keeping kings together, but still, despite this, it is still proven that situations can and will occur. The facts are there. The scientific makeup of the animal alone is set in stone. Can not be argued, no matter how much attention-eager desires are typed on a snake forum. I have known about hogs and gopher snakes eating each other, let alone the plethora of king stories that I know, from adults to even Florida king babies eating each other right out of the egg. I know, I know.....you then hear the overused excuse and blame given to the keeper.." ooooh..you didn't feed them enough! " ( Andrew Dice Clay voice ) All that is, is the attention desperately trying to be thwarted from the bad advice and lies commonly seen at times on this forum and others, to the people who have lost their poor kings to cannabilism. People are known, by human conditions, to say about anything on the internet, in hopes to gain attention. You see that a lot here, and unfortunately, the snakes are the ones that can pay.

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Genesis 1:1

"Newbies don't have those instincts yet, but maybe that's how you get them? By making mistakes and learning from them!"

Ding ding ding we have a winner. Reading and research is important before keeping but you have to actually work with the animals (field or captive) to really learn about them, learn to read them, etc.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.
1.3 African House Snakes
3.2 reticulated pythons
1 corn snake
4.3 Florida Kings
2 speckled kings
1.2 ball pythons
1 Argentine boa
1 Texas Rat Snake
1 checkered garter snake

Thats not the problem, there are many approaches to keeping, One is a CONTROL. in this case, keepers take everything natural away from the animals, and force them to do what they tell the animals to do.

The other is to keep animals so you can learn from them. This one is rare. Its actually the reason many of the above say they keep snakes, but then keep them in a totally unnatrual way.

Let me thing. Keep them at 82.8F in the summer, 55.2F in the winter, Place them together two weeks after the first shed, or the day after the second shed. Pull them apart after they copulate TWICE. Then place a little wet box in with the female 8 days after she sheds. Then take the eggs out and put them in a incubator thats set at, 81.5483274723F, and they will hatch in 71 days, three hours, 22 mins.

How dang natural is that???????????????????

Its simply not what they do or what they are designed to do. They actually live in a world where they must go to places that provide their needs. Its called a home range. They must move about that home range to secure all their needs and their needs vary.

Also this home range is in a state of constant change, that is, eachday the weather changes as the year goes on.

The snakes BEHAVIOR is how its done.

The control keepers, take away all ability to make choices. Then give them conditions that are decidedly average and recieve average results. Good on you. Congrats fellas, but what did you learn???????? You followed instructions, but what did you learn?

So what gives you the thought you can actually tell others about these snakes, all you did was follow instructions and forced the animal to live under your rules.

What about their rules????????????

So if you feel like rolling the dice go ahead

a153fish... not sure if that "you" is meant for me in particular or meant for anyone reading your post but what ever the case... I'm in agreement with you. I wouldn't put my same species of milks together... sure it may be possible, even desirable for some... but at the end of the day I want to be absolutely certain I'm going to have the same number of snakes I started the day off with. I like them way too much to chance it.

Again just thought it might be interesting for members to read the experiences of a person seemingly not influenced by thoughts/opinions/ideas found on this forum.

Gerry

Heres the point, why do you want to be absolutely certain. You do understand, nothing in the world works that way. You may not be here tomorrow, or keeping snakes or alive.

Wild snakes are not certain they will be there the next day. And that is key to understanding how they behave, without being certain about anything. With so many deleterious varables, they must have some of their own control. That is called behavior.

Take you, what if there were no laws, would you behave differently then you do now?????? not only no laws, but there was nothing against killing other people. Not only nothing against it, but it was encouraged. how would that work???????

If you actually think about it, not dismiss or set your own rules on it. That is exactly what snakes do. In order to live and recruit in a world with only natural laws, they must find and exsist in other individuals that will not hurt them. Then that group of individuals must protect itself from the outside world. This is the base in which all animals work. Even you

The outside world also means individuals of the same species, that is not part of your group. Remember, they do not know what species are, or genus and any of that. They only know whats right in front of them.

A little story, a couple of friends from Europe came over and wanted me to take them and show them some Ridgenosed rattlesnakes. So we went out and I found them some, their first comment was, its nice to see there are still some around. I looked at them dumbfounded and said. Gosh dang, I pointed to the vast hillside and said, the vast majority of these individuals, have no knowlege that people even exsist. They live now like they did for thousands of years.

The vast majority of these snakes never see humans, or cars, or boats or buses, maybe they see a airplane that never lands. Must be a silver bird.

These snakes have a little world, look at their world, not the box you keep them in. If you wanted, you can allow what they would do in their world. That is, if you try.

But you cannot protect them from everything. That is a human concept. That you must be "certain" of what will happen, is without question, a control issue about YOU. Not them.

In the other thread, someone observed all the hatchlings went to the same corner. That is the start of bonding. They stay together tightly for an extended period, and they REMEMBER eachothers scents. They then use that to recognize and follow eachother around their enviornment. Of course, they can and do bond in other ways, but that is without question, the first method they use to bond. With kings, they also place nests in proxsimity to eachother. That means, offspring from several parents will be next to eachother for an period of time. Hmmmmmmm why? And what would you call that?

All you ding dongs know that there are certain hot areas of AC, you know, where you find king after king after king. Well what the heck do you think they are all doing in one spot????? With good mark and recapture studies, we know these animals do not travel far on a daily basis. so whats the chance of wandering snakes finding that AC, day after day, or several times a day. If it was a high percentage, you would be tripping over them, hahahahahahahaha
So, Test it and see. I did, and I did it before most here were born. Cheers

Wow... I don't even know where to start other than saying I was incredibly naive in believing this subject could be approached and discussed in a civil manner.

Despite my disagreeing with the idea of cohabitation I thought it would be of interest for this forums members to read about the experiences of a person that has experimented with it on his own accord. Some how, despite offering up some thing that lends credence to your beliefs, I'm thrown under the proverbial bus.

If you choose to chastise me for the use of the word absolutely... by all means go ahead, I deserve it. I'm well aware there are no absolutes... I could be hit by a bus again tomorrow or the few snakes I have could perish from a freak tornado passing through my house... or... well you get the idea.

If however you choose to chastise me because I do not agree with your view point than save it, I am far too old to be chastised and lectured by you simply because I do not subscribe to your practices.

Please note I do not say you are wrong. I do not say it can't be done. I do say I will not run the risk with my snakes. I will also say I'm done with this post because... here's that word again... it is absolutely a waste of time!

"here's that word again... it is absolutely a waste of time!"

BINGO!......so very true. Every single time certain topics come up here, I simply roll my eyes and think to myself....oh geeez!, must this all be re-hashed.....AGAIN!???. Feeding kings, and keeping kings in groups are two main things to avoid at ALL COST here, as the outcome is always exactly per your quote above.....a complete "waste of time".

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Feeding kings, and keeping kings in groups are two main things to avoid at ALL COST here, as the outcome is always exactly per your quote above.....a complete "waste of time".

Doug,
Respectfully, I don't understand why you are saying this. if you came and saw my collection and saw how i feed all my kings in groups. I don't see how you could walk away. or maybe you could. But i don't understand why?

For me, this is daily routine. You can imagine the few people that know how to bond snakes and practice this makes see nothing but chaos on the forum and everyones opinions. Because when opinion and theroy meets fact....

....it is the same thing with armchair scientits. there is theory. Sometmes the theorists don't mesh up with what is possible and people have a hard time deciding what side of the fence they are on. thy isten to have way intelligent conversation, but most people are fearful and end up not trying it. So goes the consensus on this forum~"Why take a chance?".

I agree there are lots of variables within this discussion. And some on the "theory' side of the fence bring up some good points. But when others are actuially doing it why try and figure out the "why"? Why do the snakes not eat each other? Why do they share their food? Why do they let go? I don't know. it just works and works well.

Imagine if you tried to explain to someone which was a non- sexual human being. They can come up with lots of reason why sex is not good. But not until you try it will one understand the risks and ickyness thatr is natural and pleasurable.

So when i read about people and how theoi during breeding season is going. they alsways ask about this subject. So tell me how do we make this go away?

They place a un-bonded pair together and they remove them and worry and stress. They go over and over this and keep removing and replacing their snakes. Then they miss the windows of production. I can get up to 3 clucthes per year because my snakes know when and choose when to breed each other. I AM NOT BREEDING THEM. I am taking any guess work out of the process.

It just seems like I am doing the right thing by helping others and hopefully fuurther herpetoculture by sharing what i do. FR goes a step further and actually explains why the snakes do what they do and their natural ecology. tell me how that hurts the old cook book recipe of the last 3 decades. Are we to learn nothing at all?
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www.Bluerosy.com

awsome stuff man
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Not directed at you, sorry if it seemed that way. Just making the point that there is a risk. Even the article that was posted said the same thing. The only people who won't admit there is a risk, are the same ones here who know the outcome of everything and are never wrong, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

No need to be sorry, you said nothing to offend and if you had I can take it Just wasn't certain if you were addressing me directly or not.

Gerry

What you forget or dismiss is, you have no idea what your doing, your so egotistical that you think you set the rules. You don't.

That it can be done without problem is telling me, you do not understand your animals well enough to allow it to be done.

yes, that is FRANK and it is simple.

If you thought you could actually learn something, you would figure out, how its done, then do it. not just throw two animals together, doing that shows a huge amount of ignorance on your part.

Then to say, thats how it is, shows how you think, your the standard of snake knowledge. Yes, I am blunt and not tactful.

But, in this case, thats whats needed.

Its so very simple, if they did naturally eat eachother, they would not exsist. Again, what predator knows more about them, then themselves. If they ate eachtother, then a large one would hang out at the nesting site and consume the females, the eggs, etc. Why doesn't that occur????????????????

Not meaning to be mean, but this is so so so old. Good luck

"your so egotistical that you think you set the rules"

......and is always what seems to throw a "wrench" into this forum.

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Without question that is so very true, its not about people, or you or I or whomever someone wants to believe in.

There is no question, the animals set the rules, they are the subject and they are the experts. we ALL are just observers.

The point thats hard to grasp is when we prejudice the outcome. That is, we CONTROL the outcome. Then say, thats what they(the animals do). Its not what they do, its what we allow them to do.

for instance. When most set goals as to what they want to achieve, they use an example of what Joe blow the colubrid guy did or does. I on the otherhand have always used nature as a goal.
As in nesting, and groups, etc.

These days all you have to do is go to some field forum and every spring someone flips a board with a group of this species, or that species, and yes, KINGSNAKES, and even a group of kings with a group of some other snake species. Every year, and with many many species.

Yet, when they do that, they say, my thats weird, we found a group of kings together. Why would it be wierd, its pure data, well almost pure, take away the AC and its pure. hahahahahahahaha

The sad part is, because those type observations do not fit what we tell eachother, its dimissed. What should be dismissed is what we were told, not what we observed. Cheers

What I find bizarre, is that you actually attribute kings found together in nature under a hide as bonding! Come on, man! Please stop this!! haha!!

They are found where a safe area, for them, can be found.

If you find groups of kings together under a safe object used as a hide, that is because they are doing this thing called " hiding ", and taking advantage of a safe habitat. They are not having a few beers, smoking some Marlboros, and playing Old Maid. They are " hiding " from predators, and using what they have in their own world, to do so.

Duh.
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Genesis 1:1

To start with, I am basing my words on actual observations. and you are basing your thoughts on what you do in a bar. That actually will not help you.

What your doing is exactly what I am talking about, you only search for information that backs your methods up, Not look for that these animals really are.

about predators, that they do this under cover, tells us, they are avoiding adverse conditions, either dryness, or predators. other species like rattlesnakes, do this, IN THE OPEN.

Lets try again, my friend Marty, a couple weeks ago(before the rains started) found four adult kings coming out from under his house, in one day, and six adults in the same spot in one week. WHAT WERE THEY DOING AND WHY DIDN'T THEY EAT EACHOTHER???? He said, they came from this hole under the slab or something like that. And they came out in the day, and it was hot. Hmmmmmmm to many things to thing about.

My suggestion for you is, get out of the bar, and have a look.

Actually, you have not observed bonding. You have observed snakes under the same hide. That is it. You WANT to think or speak of this bonding theory, for, IMO, attention. You have no concrete evidence that they bond, and you never will. You have observations that lead you to a hypothesis. What is available to the public is knowledge about kings, with research, field observation, etc. They are biologically wired to overtake and eat other snakes. That is why they are called kingsnakes. Nothing will change that.

Like I said, they were found under the same place because they are taking advantage of a safe haven. You have not been able to record their thoughts with the help of any kind of mental software. You have no evidence of bonding. You have your assumptions, because it makes you feel better by repeating this misinformation on an internet forum, or it makes you feel better by throwing kings together in a cage, or both. You have not had a chance to hear them tell you by voice that they bond, because they can not speak. What IS fact is that they kill and eat other snakes. They will always have the potential to do so. Me, you, and any other person can not change that. That is science. That is what they do.

And speaking of bars, I don't go to them. Played shows in many, but have no use for them other than that.

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Genesis 1:1

Man that is one funny way to approach this, What the heck do you know about what I have seen or observed.

You take one small tiny example and try to make up the whole behavior, man thats one silly naive way to discuss this.

If you wanted to take this discussion somewhere, you would, ask more appropriate quesitons, like what occurs before the group under AC. If you actually would question that, I would say, my work does not include AC. Its all done under natural conditions.

The answer would be, I/we followed neonates from birth or hathching to adulthood. In some cases over thirty years with the same individual. Have done this with many species including kings.

Do I know everything, oh heck no, but we have duplicated what we saw in nature, in captivity. And I/we have seen a lot.

We do know where they go and what kind of groups they are in, What we don't know is exactly how they do this.

What bothers me is, why do you make it an arguement between people and not about the animals. To make it about the animals, we should discuss this, but you do not want that, as you know your wrong. Heck if I know everything, but they are surely more then a snake in a plasitc box, kept in solitary confinment. Do you think otherwise???????? is that what you think they are? then you may want to ask why do you want to think that.

See..I knew it. You would not be able to provide a legitimate response that supports your " bonding " theory. Instead, a post laced with questions, that have been seen with your posts, again and again.

Just realize that not everyone thinks like you, and not everyone agrees with you.

I am making it about the animals, hence the point being that they are Kingsnakes, with biological reasonings behind what they do: Eat reptiles and other snakes. You are ignoring a major characteristic that separates kings from other snakes. You are making it about yourself, because you are just repeating over and over the same thing, and you insult others on the forum that disagree with you, AND you are not providing any proof of your " bonding " theory.

Again, you want attention, hence your behavior.

Next time I am in Tuscon, I will buy you a cup of coffee, and we can discuss this further.
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Genesis 1:1

you insult others on the forum that disagree with you

hmm, I don't see it that way. I see you and everybody being EXTEMLT rude and FR is being EXTRELY polite and tolerant of you all.

Anyone reading this that is NOT reading compromised, or has a click they belong to can see that.
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www.Bluerosy.com

" Anyone reading this that is NOT reading compromised "

Huh? What does 'reading compromised' mean? That makes no sense.

And by the way, I am not being rude in any way. You know better to say such things.
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Genesis 1:1

Its no theory, we keep them in pairs and groups and have for years. That is not theory. that is fact.

The theory is why you can't,

Its no theory that we find kingsnakes in pairs and groups in nature. Its fact.

What you make of it is theory. The FACT that it happens is real.

And besides, a beer would be much better then coffee, unless we are road hunting.

'They are biologically wired to overtake and eat other snakes. That is why they are called kingsnakes. Nothing will change that.

That is science. That is what they do."

LOL! This cracks me up. I guess whoever named them "king'snakes. knew all there is to know about them.

I guess that clinches it FR.
HA HA HA HA HA!

They are named Kingsnakes. HA HA HA!
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www.Bluerosy.com

He would never eat me; he is just a sweet lil puddy tat! BFs forever! LOL!
"They are biologically wired to overtake and eat other snakes. That is why they are called kingsnakes. Nothing will change that.

They are named Kingsnakes. HA HA HA!
This thread is so nutz I don't know where to jump in at, but having fun!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

See. You have nothing to say. Instead, you make jokes to alleviate attention.

Thanks for proving what myself and others have been saying for years.
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Genesis 1:1

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I have found snakes under the same billboard and then thrown them in a snake bag only to have one eat the other before I get home, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Did uou actaully read what I posted? What exactly do you have a problem with? I said it can be done, but there is risk. If you don't want to at least admit there is risk inviloved then your not being honest. I'm not some little kid so save your rant for someone else.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Not to be mean but in the wild they mate and get away. Caged is different. Also, a snake couldn't see an airplane, eyes are not that good.
You are not considering if they did manage to eat most of each other in the wild, the strongest would survive-hence the strongest genetics passed on.

There's a lot of variables Frank doesn't consider. If you find thre kings under a board, maybe there used to be four? He is the all knowing one! Who dares to question the wizard!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

........I am freaking ROLLING reading some of this stuff..HAHAHAA!!!!

I have also read here in the past that they will NEVER eat one another in the wild either, or there wouldn't BE any left..LOL!!

That is pure BS as well, because it wouldn't even BEGIN to put a tiny dent in the numbers if some were killed, and/or consumed here and there for whatever reason(s). Out of lt's say 50,000,000 kings, if just say 234,000 to 987,000 were eaten here and there over a period of time, it wouldn't ever amount to JACK in the broad scheme of things in nature. The bottom line will ALWAYS be...some sh!t works, and some does not!.....THAT is what nature is about...

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Then explain why I have kept kings in groups for many decades and so has Bluerosy.

Our animals do what yours cannot. That makes you lacking something. Ours do more, not less. Yours do less. That makes you and your thinking the problem.

Your thoughts on nature is totally based on your arguement, and not the otherway around. My statements are BASED on actual observations. Whether my thoughts about them are accurate can be debated, but At least I have actual observations, and lots of them.

The statement about the strong survive is kinda huey. 99% of all hatchlings are strong. Then luck, and timing takes its toll. If you actually watch animals you would understand that. Yet, a million miles away, you can say the strong(lucky whatever) survive. But a whole lot goes on in the middle between hatching and strong and luck.

I don't care how strong you are, if your born in a dry year and your habitat burns down, hahahahahaha or no food what so ever. a lot of that went on this year around here.

Then explain why I have kept kings in groups for many decades and so has Bluerosy.

actaully there are other people who have read these posts and are keeping their snakes in large groups with 100 percent success. But they don't want to get involved with all the personal attacks. So they don't post.

You see it has become more of a click thing. like whos side are you on. if you are not for us you are against us type of thing.

Some people try and be diplomatic and play both sides with trying to offend anyone by giving their opinion. That is how this place is. it is about people and not the snakes.
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www.Bluerosy.com

"Also, a snake couldn't see an airplane, eyes are not that good".

I must say this is ABSOLUTELY bogus. I once, nearly 20 years ago, had a young savannah monitor I would take out to the back yard to walk around and explore. SEVERAL times I observed him cock his head to the side and look up as an airplane and/or bird would fly past high overhead. Impossible to know what he was thinking each and every time, but I know without a doubt, he could at least can see the movement even though it was a very small object. Just an observation.

Point being, don't underestimate what's going on in those tiny, little pea brains of theirs. There are definitely little gears turning inside.

"What you forget or dismiss is, you have no idea what your doing, your so egotistical that you think you set the rules. You don't."

That is the kind of ironic statement that gets you into hot water Frank. I know that's you but it doesn't play well over this medium. Tone it down a bit and you might find better reception.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I have been keeping kings in groups and pairs since the early sixties and I feed them together too. Hmmmmm I just throw in mice.

The thing is, its all about behavior, Behavior is inherent and learned. Which means, its not a simple they all do this or that.

If they learn to be around other kings, its not a problem, I they are kept singly and are never around other kings, then its an uphill battle.

I am currently (since i brought them out of brumation) housing my 1.1 pair of ruthveni together, with no problems as of yet.
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Chris - TX

>>I am currently (since i brought them out of brumation) housing my 1.1 pair of ruthveni together, with no problems as of yet.
>>-----
>>Chris - TX

Chris Ruthvens and Some of the Milksnakes like Sinaloans, or Nelsons just to name a few seem to do just fine together. It's when you get into the Speckled Kings, the Easterns, and Floridas, that I get nervous. Even some Cal Kings can be a worry, lol. But I always think to myself, "will I completely freak out, if tommorrow there's only one?"
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

The pros and cons on this topic bring to mind my neighbor's opinion of his big ass mean Rottweiler; "Oh, he wont bite, he's very friendly!" Yeah, sure...

Anyway, I used Tad's article as a resource when I decided to put my adult pyros in trios at brumation last fall. I also have some pits in pairs. I did subsequently remove one female pyro to her own habitat as she was smaller than the other female and the male, and she did not seem at ease in their company, always hiding in the moss hide instead of being coiled together like the other trio. Babies and juveniles are separate. I feed often. Never feed any of my snakes in their habitats or together.

So far so good. Am newbie, with much to learn about these wonderful animals, so the only advice I would add is be vigilant.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Feeding is not a learned behavior...its innate....they eat not from what they learn to eat...but from what they have adapted to over a long period of time...rodents...lizards...and SNAKES...all of them have the potential...its in their nature...the only animal I have ever seen that has to learn what to eat is a Turkey...their stupid...no clue...Kingsnakes are not Turkeys!!!!
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Michael Enriquez

True, and under certain conditions they will eat what is in front of them, as in another king.

There are also conditions when kings do not eat their own. And if you allow for those conditions, the kings coexist.

Of course there may be a crazy individual that doesn't follow the norm.

I've raised sibling Cal kings up with no incidence of cannibalism. Then I took one of those females and put her with an adult, unrelated male, and she attacked. When I put her back with her siblings, she didn't attack them.

So you see, kings do choose which other kings they attack or don't attack.

When I worked with Cal kings many years ago, the only times I saw one try and eat another was when they were unrelated and never saw one another except in Spring when I put them together. None of the siblings ate one another as long as I kept them together over Winter. And my older pairs did not eat one another either.
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Mark

There is still an exception to the norm, as people have posted on this forum about hatchlings eating each other before they had the chance to separate them.

So siblings can eat siblings.

And I know with breeding cal kings, since I am not after how many I produce-but what I produce, some females are receptive to some males and not to others. Reminds me the movie Planet Of The Apes.....stupid chimps thought that if you put 1.1 humans together, they would breed, not always the case.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Well you know my opinion on this subject and i have been keeping Florida kings together for years (incl just males). Zero problems and I have one of the largest collection of eastern getual (ie known snakes eaters that can't be trusted LOL!) and I have been keeping tgem like this for about 18 years.

The key factor that people keep overlooking is that the pairs must be BONDED. This is the part that annoys me the most me when some idiot posts here that because one time they put two kings togther one ate the other.

But that is what this forum is. Take it of leave it.

Maybe if people would READ the post on BONDING and realize that if you brumate the snakes together they won't eat each other.

My Florida kings eat and SHARE their food. I just throw in a pile of chick and they eat to their fill. If one grabs another by accident and they roll around. I just leave them. I don't seperate. They soon discover that they arer eatinge ach other and let go without any intervention. They are like the Honey badger. They just don't give a SH!T !

This goes on all the time. i just toss the food in and turn my back and leave the room. They know what is up if they are bonded.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I keep my pyros and pits in pairs and trios, but would never feed them by tossing food in their cage and just letting them go at it. I keep a careful chart of who ate what when and also observe daily if anybody seems hungry; if so I feed that one in feeding container, not adhering too strictly to a schedule.

I would be afraid to do your method. Not saying your method is wrong, but too risky for me. I have only been keeping snakes for 4 years, so am obviously not that experienced. But the image of a whole big mess of snakes in a feeding frenzy cares me!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I would be afraid to do your method. Not saying your method is wrong, but too risky for me. I have only been keeping snakes for 4 years, so am obviously not that experienced. But the image of a whole big mess of snakes in a feeding frenzy cares

Yes the thought scared me to. But i had to learn slowley and by experimenting inch by inch.

The key issue here again is bonding. It is a basic husbandry need much like back in the 70's- people didn't know the word 'brumate'. Now it is basic 101 snake CARE and everyone knows what it is. I hope in the future herpetoculture will learn this word bonding and use it as the basic 101 in snake care.

When you bond Florida kings properly you might have the learn the nerve or get the COURAGE to feed them together. So the way it works is a confidence building process for those that are unsure what to expect..So, for example, you will try the first time to feed them together, but you decide never more than one mouse per snakes at a time and then sit back and watch. Then, maybe later, one day you might try giving them one each and drop in a couple more to finsh after they eat their first ones. But , you are nervous , so you sit there and whatch. all the while checking and peeking at the cage to see that the snakes don't latch on. Thenone day, much later, you might get the courage and curious to drop in a bunck of mice to see what happens while you watch. hmmm this is where it gets interesting with BONDED getula. The snakes will feed and share but the one day you might see two latch on aggressiving and go into their death roll contrictor, feeding frenzy mode. Panic sets in and you immdeiatly open the cage and seperate the snakes and vow to never feed or house them again..end of story, ...no? Maybe for some...

..Some time later you might get up the nerve again to try feeding a pair of BONDED eastern getula kings kept together. So you try and offer a pikle again. A pile of lets say, 6 mice. They may eeat and share like this for a long time but themn maybe once out of a hundred times two will accidently latch on the same mosel. So they latch on and you seperate and the process repeats where you swear off that KINGSNAKES and called KINGsnakes for a reason...

What i suggest is get up the nerve and watch what happens if they both latch on to one mouse and allow then to fight it out. Let it go. Let the process take place and just sit there and do nothing. Just watch and see what happens. What you will discover is thet won't each eat other or kill each other. JUST DO NOT DISTURB THEM! DISTRACTION OR MOVMEMENT OUTSIDE CAN TRIGGER THEM TO KEEP AT IT. Instead, just watch and be pateint, and you will see they let go and figure out they are latched on together. They let go and resume eating. Kinda like the Honey badgeer after he gets bit by the cobra. he doesn't care. he just sleeps it off and then finsishes eating the cobra. lol!

Seriously folks. This is what they really do..

but here is the disclamer for the 100th time:

DO NOT TRY THIS WITH KNIGS THAT ARE NOT BONDED P R O P E R L Y!.

Also i don't keep neonates together as they will eat each other. I start the Bonding process when the snakes are big emnough to take a large mouse (the snakes are about a year old if fed properly or 20". Then when they reach the size to eat large mice just put them together when you cool in the winter. Makes sure temps drop down to 45-55F. in the room. If you are using heat tape the cool saide should be 65f or preferably cooler..

Do the bonding in the winter. Then when spring nears, there is no guess work with breeding and when to put the males in with the females. No wasted eggs AND NO WORRIES THAT YOU SNAKES WILL CANNIBALIZE EACH OTHER!
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www.Bluerosy.com

Why are we discussing this again???
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Joe

because I made a mistake.

Gerry

because I made a mistake.

Gerry

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LOL! That is te funniest post of the day! Made me almsot fall out of my chair.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I'm amused as well Rainer... you know the sort of amusement I mean... you laugh... you shake your head... you walk away bemused.

I'm amused as well Rainer... you know the sort of amusement I mean... you laugh... you shake your head... you walk away bemused.

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Yeah , well, it is like that for me to. Oh well, that is what people are like. What can I say.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>because I made a mistake.
>>
>>Gerry

Really? I thought you hated me?
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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Really? I thought you hated me?

Now that is funny... my apologies Cindy.

Gerry