Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've seen a lot of the posting going on about housing snakes together... I think FR made some valid points. I'm willing to experiment a little here, and hopefully my caged up animals don't devour each other.

I have this pair of cali kings, 2009 clutchmates, two very nice snakes, both incredibly tame. These two could possibly breed next year, if not, the year after for sure. So how about for experiment sake I house them together, feed them together, then winter comes and I can hibernate them together.

There was many times where I was tempted to get a pic of 2 snakes at one time, but with kings and milks I always felt like there was a risk of one snake wanting to eat another so I never got the courage to throw them together. Maybe I shouldn't be so scared?

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Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

That is exactly how I got many of my snakes......someone will call me and say...."come get this damn thing, she ate my male"
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

But seriously, it won't prove anything. I kept Speckled kings as a teenager together for years, untill it happened to me. I don't know if I followed the 12 step program to bond them, but I do know they were kept together year round for a couple years, and then one day BAM! I thought, what the heck, that won't happen again? But it did! That's why I speak from experience too! It's kind of like getting zapped with elecricity. Once it happens to you, you never think the same way again. Unless you can live with some collateral damage, to continue doing it. Many years later I did it again with Florida Kings and Bam! Each case the snakes were similar in size, not exactly but close. Each time the snake was too big to digest, and was puked up. That's some of the nastiest smell, I ever smelled. If you've ever had a situation come up unexpectedly, like an illness or death in the family where your snakes kinda take a back seat to more important matters, and maybe you push back on feeding them till next week, cause things are too hectic? BAM! Don't worry they'll feed themselves.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

If you've ever had a situation come up unexpectedly, like an illness or death in the family where your snakes kinda take a back seat to more important matters, and maybe you push back on feeding them till next week, cause things are too hectic? BAM! Don't worry they'll feed themselves.
Is that what happened in that instance; they got too hungry because you has more pressing unavoidable concerns at the time? I offer food often and all they want. Hope to reduce the risk by keeping them well fed all the time. if I encounter an event that will take me away from the meticulous care of my snakes I will separate them until I can return and deal with them again.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

I was just giving an example of what can go wrong. If you keep them well feed you are reducing the likelyhood that they will turn on each other. I wouldn't be as worried with Pyros, it's the eastern, the Speckleds, Cali's, Mexican blacks, the Getula boys that are the real problem. Like I said I kept 4 hobby Sinaloans together up to justr a few months ago when I sold the whole lot. I also keep Thayeri/Ruthies together as well as most of my Corns in pairs. But I feed them in paper bags separately. Even the Corns. I had Yellow rat snakes eat each other too because they went after the same mouse. My bad! Again, I probably didn't follow the 12 step bonding program, you know?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

"Even the Corns. I had Yellow rat snakes eat each other too because they went after the same mouse"

WAIT!, you mean even the Yellow rat didn't take a step back and say....."no!, no!...after YOU my friend".

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

You somehow learn to follow a method, a shoebox or whatever method. You start knowing nothing, then you learn as you go along. There are steps and changes and so forth as your animals grow and reproduce.

Yet, when you heard about what we do, you forget that all methods take steps to learn. You just want to go to the end and be done with it, then say, see it doesn't work.

Its not the method that did not work, it would the person doing it that failed. You do it poorly. Sorry, the results tell that you did it poorly.

When you were learning the control method you practice now, you made mistakes, you kept working until to reached what is considered normal. I hope you understant, the method you use is a lot of work and causes lots of problems.

when allowing the snakes to BE, the snakes they are. The method I use and bluerosy uses, is much easier and avoids the common problems your method is so entrenched with. You know, poor nesting, bacterial infections, etc.

My method is based on the animals knowing how to live in conditions that are so much more harsh then your captive conditions. They live now and have always lived in conditions above and below what their requirememts are. That is what behavior is for, to gain what you need for a range of choices.

And no, we do not have to go all extreme like you dingbats normally do. I am talking about a range of temps, humidities, and security that the snakes are familar with. Which means, they know how to move, in, out, up, down, to gain their needs. That is what they do, that is what all their adaptions are for.

You guys get all goofy about respecting different species, yet, you keep them all the same, hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha They are different species because they do something a little different, like gain the same needs, food, temps, humidity, in slightly different ways. Yes, you ignore that, but want pure, How funny.

So yes, I do have an attitude, and why not. You folks often speak out of both sides of your mouths. You know, local specific etc etc etc and then keep them all in plastic shoeboxes. hahahahahahaha

"The method I use and bluerosy uses, is much easier and avoids the common problems your method is so entrenched with. You know, poor nesting, bacterial infections, etc"

Yes, the bacterial infections you mention is an absolutely perfect topic for this thread.

I will duck down and take cover while this one pans out my friends.............

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It appears the immune system or at least parts of the immune system is developed at maximum perferred temps.

Which is totally avoided in most snake setups. They are decidedly middle of the road.

for instance we know you can cure URI and other gram-negative infections with heat. Whats so funny about that is, if the snakes had access to that heat, they would not get sick.

In working with varanids, gram-negative infections, URI and mouth sores(rot) were and are commonplace.

When I started with varanids, I started with a wide temperature choice. In some cases, I have horrible conditions, in my efforts to keep them outside. all varanids are tropical. that is, 99% of species and numbers occur between the tropics. Yes there is a very small number of exceptions.

Well, we heated outside cages in the winter, then it snowed, rained froze, etc etc. hmmmmmmmmmmmm we had them freeze to death, almost freeze to death, stay wet and cold for periods of time. But as long as they could get hot in the day, they never got sick. That is the ones that did not freeze. Truth is, we only lost a few.

As I kept working on those cages, outside is a very hard to control condition and changes year to year. So we now keep most indoor or indoor outdoor.

What I noticed with varanids is, they will go to heat, up to panting, that is, gular flapping. Which is designed to cool the brain.

They choose to stay at those temps for extented periods.

in cages inside, the keepers would see that and quickly lower the temps. Thats called fear keeping methods, many or most methods are developed from fear, not from actual needs for the animal.

Doug,
What you heard about happened a few yars ago and some of my snakes i sent out to two people on this forum FOR FREE had some blisters. These were babies and were housed in deli cups. Not kept communally.

That is the problem with you guys. there are a couple people who have some persoanl issues and spread news about me and there intent is to discredit. So those stoies get passed between the few of you and even to people that I have never had contact with. It sort of becomes like a pack mentality..."you are either with us or against us" mentality. Whish is dissapointing.

Think of this. I have been breding snakes for decades and sold to thousands to people. Someyears in a single season! yet the complaints are coming from people on this forum and not the thousands of happy customers.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Creeping Crud comes to mind, lol!!!!!!!!!!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

I appreciate you lumping all of us together in the sandbox...
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Mark,
I don't think FR menat to lump you. But you comment in the first post you made certainly needed clarification. For some knuckle heads that can't reason, everything has to be explained. OR, (this is what i really think)they just can't get over being wrong.

You said some people sent you a snake because it ate the other...well sure, they will eat each other. If not properly BONDED!!!!!!

Bonded
Bonded
BONDED
BONDED
Bonded
Bonded
BONDED
BONDED
Bonded
Bonded
BONDED
BONDED
Bonded
Bonded
BONDED
BONDED
Bonded
Bonded
BONDED
BONDED
Bonded
Bonded
BONDED
BONDED
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www.Bluerosy.com

So what's the next trick? Fetch, sit, rollover? That would be awesome man. I can't wait get working on it!!!
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

Rainer, I doubt he did either but it would do us all good to read between the lines in everyone's posts. There's a lot there that isn't typed and it does each of us a bit of good to think a little and if we put everyone in a box when we're trying to tell them to think "outside" the box...well, it loses a lot to me.....
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

How did you end up, you guys, you guys, are obviously the ones who keep their animals in solitary confinement and want to rationalize how good that is, in the name of safety(control)

So you guys is, if the shoe fits, wear it.

"And no, we do not have to go all extreme like you dingbats normally do"

That was just one of his many endearing compliments to everyone here..LOL!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Actually, the problem is your need for attention on the internet Frank. That is all it is.

You speaking of a failed hypothesis about how snakes " bond ". Being found together in the wild does not fulfill the necessary requirements. What you are implying in reality is very easy to read. You speak of providing all of these thermal gradients for cages, yet you can't provide pics of how you do it.

" Yet, when you heard about what we do, you forget that all methods take steps to learn. You just want to go to the end and be done with it, then say, see it doesn't work. "

Sorry, you struck out on this one. The reason why the risk of it not working is because kingsnakes have this basic biological aspect about them: They eat snakes, and each other. You are ignoring simple scientific facts, and then using ignorance as a way to keep blabbing on about things that so many are tired of reading. Sir, you know better than to do that.

" when allowing the snakes to BE, the snakes they are. The method I use and bluerosy uses, is much easier and avoids the common problems your method is so entrenched with. You know, poor nesting, bacterial infections, etc. "

Pure hypocrisy, and here is why. The snakes will always be the way they are, and that is the fact of always eager to eat other snakes. No matter how many times you go on and on about this, science will always be against your bonding theory. Science wins Frank!! I just wish you would be honest with yourself and others, and just accept that fact. As far as you implying others have poor nesting, bacterial infections, that is a very broad statement to make when you have no knowledge of what you speak. Speak for yourself. If you are lazily keeping a multitude of kings together, the chances of more health problems due to uncleanliness, waste buildup, waste in water, etc. is the most evident fact available. Get real.

" You guys get all goofy about respecting different species, yet, you keep them all the same. "

So keeping water from two Cal kings, that you claimed you were doing, is respectable. With that, your credibility is out the door.

Next.
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Genesis 1:1

Science wins Frank!

science:
"systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation"

Last i checked science is about taking things and duplicating them to proove the theory. Without proof , you have nothing to speak of in regards to science.

What we have here are a bunch of herpers who we thought we smart enough to weigh the evidence to at least try it themselves.

Why don't you want to prove us wrong?. You don't want to place two yearling Florida kings together during brumation and feed them and breed them as I have been doing?

So you see, science is really not on your side. neither is being able to take the evidence posted here and at least admit you could be wrong. No! You just say it can't be done because they will one day eat each other.

I implore you... This fall . Take a pair of Florida kings that are yearlings. make sure they are the size that are barely able to eat a large mouse and brumate them as you normally would with your cookbook recipe. Then, in the spring, throw caution to the wind and feed them FT mice and try everything you can to get them to eat with the exception of starving them. And then come back here next year and have something to say about science.

My bonded adults don't eat each other, period!

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www.Bluerosy.com

" Why don't you want to prove us wrong?. You don't want to place two yearling Florida kings together during brumation and feed them and breed them as I have been doing? "

Sorry, but there is nothing to prove. Kings are kings. Done. End of story. The fact that they do eat each other, and will continue to do so, is noted, has been noted, and will continue to be noted. Baby Florida kings have been noted to kill each other right out of the egg. Others have noted Fl. kings chomping on each other as well. Same with Cal kings at times. Kings in general do this very thing. They do not bond. Duh. Nothing to prove.

" My bonded adults don't eat each other, period! "

If you want to keep repeating that, feel free to do so. You can claim all that you want, and it isn't even the fact that many view these ridiculous posts, laugh, believe or not believe these posts, and move on, but the fact that you are trying to hard to get people to believe things you say. Please give it a rest.

I think it would be better if people were just honest and say they don't want to take the time to house kings separately, because they lack patience. That is all. The " bonding " theories are its' mask.

Nothing more to say, and I should not continue to enable unhealthy behavior anymore. Time to move on. Nothing challenging to even speak about in regards to this subject.

Take care!!
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Genesis 1:1

I think it would be better if people were just honest and say they don't want to take the time to house kings separately, because they lack patience. That is all. The " bonding " theories are its' mask.

I agree!

If you want to keep repeating that, feel free to do so. You can claim all that you want, and it isn't even the fact that many view these ridiculous posts, laugh, believe or not believe these posts, and move on, but the fact that you are trying to hard to get people to believe things you say. Please give it a rest.

I disagree.

See this is where you blew it..

i just post what i do everday for years with hundeds of adults. It is easy. It is easier than the conventional method. Try it! Them come back and tell everyone who is ridiculous.
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www.Bluerosy.com

>>My bonded adults don't eat each other, period!
>>

This is what we don't know? There is no proof, just words.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

This is what we don't know? There is no proof, just words.

The problem with your theory. Its not true. LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

What theory is not true. Who are you? How you keep your snake is your business. However it is not easier. I have maintained collections with 5000 snakes all housed individual and I had no problem at all. We never had any sick animals or crazy fungus that spread to other cages or costumer's. Its fine if that how you choose to keep your snakes. Why do you spend so much time trying to defend it. You stated your point in your first post. If it works like you say great. Take a minute and look at all the questions you avoided that people asked. Stop repeating yourself and answer questions
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

I have maintained collections with 5000 snakes all housed individual

So you worked for someone else who made the descions.

If you were close by, maybe you could manage my collection as well.

The point here again is bonding. Nothing more. Nothing less.

It is NOT about how others keep their snakes.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Our new words for today:
I don't think snakes can become best buds but with proper conditions can be co-habitated successfully. Still inherent risks, though.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

"when allowing the snakes to BE, the snakes they are. The method I use and bluerosy uses, is much easier and avoids the common problems your method is so entrenched with. You know, poor nesting, bacterial infections, etc."

So overcrowding is not conducive to un-healthy conditions. And as for Bacteria, you have to be kidding? The rest of what you said sounds like the usuall dribble.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Who has poor nesting techniques? Frank I know you know alot about nesting. You work with varanus which are very complicated nesters. They probally require the most skilled people to maintain and reproduce. However if you provide the certain elements required you get good results. Same with snakes and turtles. However, nesting has nothing to do with keeping groups of kings together. As for bacteria, its the worst husbadry method for controling the spread of illness. So Frank I have to disagree with those to staements bud. I would never argue varanus though. LOL!
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

An 08 male and an 09 female living together. I put them together at the onset of brumation when they had gone off feed for the year anyway, so less likely to want to eat each other. In the spring when I warmed them up I offered food frequently in separate feeding containers and made sure they both ate. As it was I had to start the male on a lizard to boost him into eating mode. He was a sporadic feeder in his first years, hence not as big as the 09 female, who I think will be a behemoth. This year he is eating on a regular basis and is doing very well growth wise. Anyway, the introduction was made in late fall when they didn't want to eat. Originally I had another 09 female with them but she was not as big and so I removed her, as she seemed ill at ease with her bigger cage mates, and likely with good reason.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Well, it seems they are bonded so you shouldn't have any problem dumping a pile of food in there and walking away. Seriously though, BEAUTIFUL animals man.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

YouMike this is not directed at you, but tghose that replied.

Hou have to bond younger snakes. i would not try and bond large adults.

Also i would not put them together when they are mid season in the summer, like now.

If you want to bond them then put them together when they are just big enough to eat normal size (large ) mice (usually yearlings). Then wait until winter and brumate them together. That is my expericne and fuil poof.

After that they will share food etc.

To try and puit two adult cal kings togther in the summer spells disaster. So will placing adults together. that is not bonding.

you guys still don't get the bonding thing. *Sigh*

I would think some of you with years of experince would have more of a green thumb and know your snakes better.
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www.Bluerosy.com

Experience is not measured in years, its measured in events. You can do the same thing over and over for decades and still have very little experience.

Here is a thought just for you Bluerosy, In the distant past, reptile keepers were rougues, explorers, daredevils, they were exceptions and out of the box type of folks. Reptiles were not mainline.

Now reptiles are normal. what we get is normal people keeping them. Not explorers or those who are curious as to what the animal is. But more of those who only want to fit in and do what normal people do, follow a recipe.

As a zoo builder, the history of zoos is funny, In the old days, animals were wild and dangerous. So zoos built prison cells to keep them in. As time when by, there is little wild left, so zoos changed and build wild cages(naturalistic)

There were a few old zoos that bucked that early trend, just like there are a few keepers that want our snakes to be snakes. As of now, most want them as place others, as in, I have this or that. A baseball card method of keeping. Not snake keepers, instead morph keepers.

Whats really funny is, it was us snake keepers that made the morphs, we created this monster. hahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Frank, My wife and I have worked at a couple zoo's. We like going out and watching animals in habitat. Its the best way to learn about them. It gives you new ideas on how to improve you husbandry. Everyone here likes to hear new ideas and thoughts. Thats the point of this place. However, no one wants to hear it from two guys that come on and start [bleep] everytime(not you). Thats the whole problem here. Not keeping them together. Everyone has said over and over it can be done. Some dont want to and some think its not worth the risk. It all comes down to the two instigators. OT- do you have a varius cooking???
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

And another guy from the FBI decided to pop in late last night.

FBI= Forum Bullsh!%& Instigator

A select few only show up for the sole purpose of making smart insulting comments,......NEVER to offer any helpful ideas or advice, or insight to anything whatsoever.

In other word, as worthless as t!ts on a bull.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

It seems you have got it down man. Thats cool! I dont think anyone thinks you cant house them together. They are saying that no matter what your "snake whispering" skills are. You cant be sure that they will not eat each other. So pitch your theroy's on bonding to AP and Im sure you will have no problem getting your own show. Then no one can disagree with you. You will be GOD !!! HAHAHHA.... Then you will be to busy to come here and we can get back to how the forum should be. Good luck!
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com
"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

HA HA Gerard.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I am with Bluerosy, I wouldn,t do it that way.

I did not read his reply so hopefully we say the same things.

Your animals are already conditioned to be solitary. So you have to allow them to learn to be with other snakes.

Yours are young so that will not be hard.

I would wait until fall and the temps drop to where the snakes are not feeding. Then place them together. Then simply leave them together.

They will have to learn to feed in the same cage with others, and Bluerosy already explained how thats done with new animals.

I did this with much more dangerous reptiles(to eachother)

I raised up a bunch of lace monitors singlely, then when they were teenagers, I placed them in a group cage and had them learn to feed as a group.

Unlike snakes, those type of varanids have razorblade teeth, so simple biting by mistake can be serious.

not only did I allow them to feed together, I they also learned to take food from my hands. Consider, varanids feed like volicraptors. I do have a few pics of that.

Pictures are always great, and obviously illustrate (especially to visual learners) points sometimes better than book-length posts.

Just curious: have you ever posted your suggested recommendation for housing, e.g., say a FLA king? Things like cage size? Medium, hides, etc.? I.e., YOUR care sheet

I got tired of looking at plastic tubs and saying, "that's my pet snake." I might as well have kept sweaters and shoes in those sweater and shoe boxes. (Yes, it's about my pleasure, ha ha.)

Sometimes I think if I were so concerned about snakes living in a naturalistic environment, I'd be a conservationist and want the snakes to live in the wild. (Not to say I'm not in favor of protecting nature.)

So post some pics. Or should I say, "post a NUTHER su-WEET piture of kingSNAKES. Say something back ASAP?!!!"

Alright so I'll wait until Winter to start this little project. I'm just curious as to if "bonding" really makes a difference when it comes to breeding them.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

Alright so I'll wait until Winter to start this little project. I'm just curious as to if "bonding" really makes a difference when it comes to breeding them

NO! Not with those adults you posted.

you must do it with small yearlings.

Do you have any Florida king abies from last year? How big are they?

if not. Maybe i will send you a pair and you can try it. Just report back here.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I wouldn't say my pair are adults, they might be 2 years old but they're not all that big. The female is a good bit under 30" still, and neither of them can take prey bigger than a fat fuzzy mouse. I have some cali kings that are 2010 hatch from Kerby that are already almost the size of the pair I originally posted about.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles
www.kingpinreptiles.com

email me and we will work something out. Bonding has to be done right.
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www.Bluerosy.com

I think its all the difference in the world. More then all the difference.

Both in number of offspring, and for the daily life of each animal.

Even more importantly, its benefitual to the keepers, its keeps you interested and learning. You gain a totally different view of the animals.

If you are serious about keeping snakes, your biggest challange is not breeding them, or nesting them, Its keeping YOUR interest alive and strong.

so many of these boneheads(those who argue from a point of naivity) Are hatching their first kings, or only done so in the last few years.

Take the pyro guy, what going to keep in interested after his 1000th hatchling. The reality is, he will be long gone, having mored to something else.

With behavior, its something the more you allow it, the more you learn, the more you learn, the more you allow and understand. As long as I have been doing this, I am just know at the opening at seeing what complex behavioral animals we are working with.

I decided to house a pair of San Diego county, CA locality striped California kings together last year. I brumated them, brought them up and watched them during feeding with no problems. The pair then bred and the female is currently very heavy with eggs.
Shortly after the pair bred, I was feeding the collection and just happened to open the tub with the Cal King pair. The female was in the act of constricting the male. I separated the two and decided to house the male in a separate tub.
Based on what I found, I am fairly confident that the female would have made a meal out of the male. If she is carrying eggs, the need for food to nourish the developing eggs is most likely instinctual at this time. Most likely the drive to feed to nourish the developing eggs is probably more so at this time than any other(just a theory).
Based on this observation, I will definitely NOT be housing any of my kings together. I don't want to take the chance again as I feel I was at the right place at the right time to avert a tragedy.
Just thought I would share my observations as they are definitely relevant to this thread............
Brad Bauserman

They get tired of the horny males wanting sex constantly, lol! This is meant to be serious, even though it is funny.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

A word of advice.... Don't douo it. I have had many snakes that I housed together. Some are more likely to do well and some don't.
Mountain kings do well for the most part, but not common kings. I have had a prized male eaten by a female that I thought would be ok housing together.

In the wild, They don't always see others of the same species. When you go flipping and find multiples under rocks or boards together, its not because they permanatley are living together. Its because they have a reason to be together at that point and then they will part ways ones the conditions change or are done mating... Even the biggest cage cannot mimic the ability for one snake to get away from another if it needed to.

Just an idea

I've had kings together to breed....
never actually housed togather...
I take it this is one of the fighting threads?

and I never had a king eat it's mate....

....cal kings I couldn't get to eat snake....and I tried...

the thought here once was if they know each other they won't eat each other....so introduce them at young ages to get used to other snakes....

well...I think it's a great idea...and have done meetings all the time with snakes....not just kings....I even let the chondors have "meeting " copulations a year before I knew they would lay....it worked also....

......watch any snake pair that has bred before...there is no search and siesure...it's just ..buissness....BAM...done...

....
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........JY

Your right snakes thay have bred before seem to know what they are doing. Maybe it's just that first timers haven't got the hang of it so good yet? But you say you never had a King eat it's mate. I never have either, during mating season. Like I said before, the first time it happened was with a pair of Speckled Kings that had beed together for a couple years, so they should have been bonded by then? But if one person never has an incident, and some one else does it just proves these snakes are individually different, and there are also many other variables to factor in as well. Thanks for your input
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com