Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Over 20+ years I've been seriously involved in the herp community with almost most of that time spent in the field all over the western United States and Mexico. During this time I have given several animals away that I have collected or breed (I breed allot of stuff as well) to friends (?) / people who have asked for them. Needless to say the majority of it was for their commercial gain and sold behind my back. A few years ago I quit all together collecting herps for people because of this. I still give away many CB herps a year and get burned by herpers still. With CB herps it's not that big of a deal with me. I just won't ever give anything to that person again. But, with wild-caught stuff it bugs me.

This year I've averaged 3-4 days a week in the field since Jan traveling and herping in several states and I have 3 more months to go before I'm done. Out of all the herps I've found this year I have not collected one for myself. I've seen 74 zonata (5 different sub-species) and 82 Rosy boas (All subspecies) and have not kept one. A friend asked me if I could help him out with pairing up a certain king snake (non protected or endangered) from a certain locale he needed and I broke my "no collecting WC herps for people" rule and did. He asked for a female. So I collected the female which was young and also a second one which was an adult ( I mis sexed the bigger one, actually I didn't look at the tail...ooppps) and sent the snakes too him. He still got his female he asked for.

He received the snakes and was very happy about the gifts and also informed me the bigger snake was a male but, no big deal he really liked it and wanted to keep it. Today while browsing the classifieds I found this snake for sale. Nothing is mentioned about it being WC either. This is the exact reason why I don't collect snakes for people anymore. That snake belongs in the wild, not exploited. I've done business with him once (he bought some CB kings from me last year) and all was well. I've never had a problem with the guy and I like him. However, his reputation with several is flawed concerning collection ands sale of WC herps on a large scale. I always give the benefit of the doubt and have to see it first hand before I judge. Now I have seen it first hand and should have sticked to my own policy on not giving WC herps away. Personally, I really don't care what he does in the field as that's his business. If he didn't want the snake it should have been given back.

I have to say I'm pissed at myself for collecting the king and giving it away but, I'm also not happy with what he did. I know he reads this forum and will see this. It's not my intention to drag his name through the dirt. I have no time for nonsense. However, after having this type of scenario happen to me on far too many occasions I decided to say something about it for once. I really aim to try and believe people in general are good, straight, honest people. The herp community has changed that in many aspects. Is it unbelievable? or is it not?

PL

Sorry he broke your trust. Once trust is broken it cannot be fixed. Without trust what is there?
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Paul,

I agree, this situation is exactly why I don't like to collect animals from the wild for others. If he had kept the animal you gave him and bred and sold the progeny...no biggie. But to sell a wild-caught animal, and to not even label it as such in his ad, is deceptive to any potential customers too! You should have been the first person contacted by this person when they decided they wanted to get rid of it; by not doing so simply made you an unknowing commercial collector...something I know you abhor. If this was an oversight by the person, it's too big to ignore and to not have ramifications to your relationship with this person. Trust takes forever to gain, but can be lost in a singular moment. I'd say he's lost your trust, and shame on him. However, if you continue future dealings with him and you get burnt again...well, as they say, shame on you. Sorry you got worked, bro.

Mitch

It is unbelievable that people out there lie, cheat, steal, and take advantage of someone such as yourself who has a very giving and caring heart, loves herps, and whose intentions were to advance the herping community by your thoughtful contributions.

My friend, I am very sorry to hear about what you are going thru. Let me say, as much selfishness as there is in this hobby, with how the animals are treated and looked upon as objects of money only and not sheer simple appreciation and wonder, there is a true appreciation of the animal itself, and I am blessed to know individuals that really do love the animals, and would never do what you have described. It is one of those issues that we learn with trial and error, in regards to who sticks to their word and who doesn't.

People are strange, but don't let the actions of some individuals ruin what you do and love. I don't think you are, but I just am encouraging you to keep that train of thought. I appreciate you sharing!!

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Genesis 1:1

I understand the sentiment but the reality is this: you gift a snake you no longer have any title to it. The dude asked for one you sent two and he moved the older one out. It would have been nice if he asked you if you wanted it back but its certainly nothing to go public over.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Tony, if this guy knew about Paul's (and mine for too) belief that w/c animals should not be sold then I disagree with your statement. He should have contacted Paul first and asked him what he wanted him to do with the animal. Not try to sell it. After all, this guy was supposed to be a friend, not some stranger that Paul sent snakes to. Just my opinion. Paul, sorry to hear this happened to you. People suck sometimes and I for one would not have anything to do with him again.

Joe

Well it was just my 2 cents. Selling or giving away is really just semantics. Regardless, taking an animal out of the wild has an impact on that population what matters is whether or not that impact is sustainable.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

I disagree as well. I have been given a few snakes over the years from friends with which a mutual trust was shared. Some of these snakes were CB but most were WC. Either way, the only 1 (a dumerils boa) that i received and decided i did not want went right back to the previous owner (the breeder of said animal). It is just the right thing to do and I would expect the same for the few animals i have given away...
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Chris - TX

I don't think there is disagreement in the general sentiment but in this case the answer is yes its believable.

Going back to the original post:

"I've done business with him once (he bought some CB kings from me last year) and all was well. I've never had a problem with the guy and I like him. However, his reputation with several is flawed concerning collection ands sale of WC herps on a large scale. I always give the benefit of the doubt and have to see it first hand before I judge."

Perhaps its just me but if you'll collect for someone with a rep for dealing wild caught animals you don't have much of a policy. One can show discretion without being judgmental. Communication here sucked and the outcome shouldn't surprise anyone.
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“Nothing is at last sacred but the integrity of your own mind.” Emmerson

WWW.TDSNAKES.BLOGSPOT.COM

Sorry to hear Paul.

I like you, stopped that practice many many years ago. The only exception is when I find abberants or albinos of legal animals, and that is not always either. The rest stay mostly untouched in nature.

I stopped for the same reasons you did.

And man are you in the field alot, hahahahahahahahaha I use to be, lately sadly not so much. I guess life has to catch up sooner or later.

Good luck in the field, not with finding stuff, you know how, but with other things like accidents. Stay safe.

Tony,

I told him I would take the snake back. He said he wanted it. As far as a public thing, it's all relative.

Joe,

If people want to go out and commercially collect that's their deal. I don't like it but, at the same time I really don't care. It's not my business. Except when it's a place I found and shared (That's also rampant but another subject) and I not going to be an asset or help a commercial herpers collecting escapades. That's what happened here. I know you understand where I come from.

Hi Frank,

I'm very fortunate to get out travel and herp like I do. One day that will end but as of right now I'm going to take advantage of it.

You know Frank, it's because of you we know so much about husbandry and field herping today. I don't think most people have a clue on just how much you have contributed to the whole industry or "herpetoculture" As a field herper I understand exactly what you mean about not knowing the animal. There's only so much you can get out of a herps natural history. A guy who gets out twice a year will never understand what your talking about. It takes years to just get a clue on what we may think is the animals daily life. A clue. Far to many questions and hardly any answers lol. Though, I admit you do go off the deep end sometimes hahaha. And I'm not kissing anybody arse. Just giving credit where it is due.

PL

Paul, I totally understand what you're saying.I've spent lots of time in the field over many years,these days mainly herp photographyin the S.E. states.As much as I've enjoyed having enthusiests or so called friends tag along in the field,its been many disapointing lessons or stabs in the back,as far as trust or anyones word.Been burnt so,so many times that these lessons have made me look at the nature of mankind from a different view point.As far as sharing great spots that you've found on your own,sadly,I would have to say,Trust No Person!!!If you have a secret and you share it,you will no longer have your special place.As you already know to well,before you share spots,just know that there will be people showing up there that you don't even know.I can attest from my experience that you will get screwed EVERY TIME !!! Why spend your life in the field figuring thse things out and give it all away to so called friends that can never hold true to their word.Maybe I've become jaded,but a man is only as good as his word,in my book people generally are not good for their word.Sad but true!!! Alan

Sorry to hear, but on a positive note; do you take photographs of the wild caught snakes?

I would LOVE to see any photos you have of your adventures!!!

Thanks!

-Rusty

Paul's got a great write-up (with photos) in the most recent Herp Nation Magazine about his adventures in Baja. Pretty cool stuff. You ought to check it out, man!

-Cole

Paul, sorry to hear that. It reminds me of what has happened to my friend Richard Hoyer. He is in my opinion THE expert on rubber boas, and was kind enough to talk me out to collect a wild pair. The male I have is one he found, the female I found while out with him.

He told me he has also been burned by those that he has shared locations with. I can't imagine breaking a trust like that, but people do.

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Kent

1.1 Hypo (het lavender, striped) corn snakes, 2010
1.2 Gray-banded king snakes, blairs phase, 2008
0.0.10 Gray-banded king snakes, 2011
1.1 Oregon rubber boas, w/c 2000 and something

Colossians 3:17

I have had that happen with people i gave w/c to. I guess i am getting to old to be surprised at humans bahivior any more.Especialliy how people rationalize their behaivior. The difference now is if i give a snake away i just do it with no strings attached. Otherwise i won't give it away.
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www.Bluerosy.com

wow that does SUCK geez more people i meet the more i like my snakes at least i can count on and trust them.
PERSONALLY, id drop the guys name call a spade a spade theres no need for crap like that totally NOT COOL
,,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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