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The issue of individual snakes forming

FR Jul 11, 2011 12:23 PM

Of snakes forming a bond of some degree.

This discussion is very important for the understanding of captive reptiles, but oddly, those against it are very focal and single minded. and normally newbies, you know, less then 10 years experience.

The actual point is, there are many ways to skin the cat, and each keeper is FREE to choose the method that suits them best.

This is the point missed. You are not forced to do anything you do not want to do.

THose of us who understand how to allow snakes to form pairs and colonies, also understand how to keep them singlely. And normally we do both. As nature does both as well.

Those that only understand how to keep them singely, have no concept how to house and maintain groups. Arn't you interested in learning????????

The odd part is, only those that do not understand how its done, preach their way as the only way. Under the cover of its safer for the snake. Which is simply not true.

The truth is, we can and do fail with any and all of these methods and the snakes are what suffers, they are the ones doing the dying. And not from one reason, well thats wrong, the one overall reason is ignorance.

Kingsnakes eating eachother in captivity is not high on the list of what causes captive deaths. No matter how its done.

But like all other deaths, it does occur.

Like with all other deaths, there are ways to prevent or lower the possibilities to a very acceptable level. That is true with all reasons for captive death.

The key here is, you do not have to avoid every little thing that has some possibility to cause harm.

Where we are failing in our understanding is, the snakes are designed to lower their own chance of failure. Both physically and mentally.

In the case of groups and bonding, its not as much physical, as it is behavioral.

All these species are nothing more then bags of material driven by behavior. Ethlogy.

Let me use a recent post as an example, Paul L,s post.

He stated the number of individuals of a couple species he observed in nature this year. Understanding those numbers, one then understands that Paul, keys on behavior to find these animals, and my bet is, he did not find them singlely, but instead in groups or colonies.

A number here, a number there, etc.

By understanding behavior, he understood where and when these animals would be, in order for him to observe them.

Depending on what part of the country you live in, there are species known to occur in large numbers. Like rattlesnakes, or ringnecks. From the mid U.S. east, its very easy to flip a board and find numbers to dozens of ringnecks under one piece of ac.

what is not thought about or considered is, ringnecks consume other snakes.

One well known poster, posted a series of pictures showing a regal ringneck killing and consuming a kingsnake, hahahahahahaha a pyro.

other areas of the country they find boas, both rosys and rubbers, in fairly large numbers in a fairly small area. One I have seen five times now is Coachwhips in congregations. Another snake eating species.

In a post below, I stated that its common in the spring(sometimes fall) to find two or more kings under AC. Sometimes a fair number. One person replied that they were there to avoid predators. What that poster missed was, if they consumed eachother, they were eachothers predator. So that did not explain why they were in the same spot, and not in the act of eating eachother.

When I lived in Fla, one fella found 118 fla kings laying out together. Ok, I have never seen those numbers, but groups were possible to find.

To make it clear, there are field reports of groups of most species of kings being found in nature.

Understanding behavior is important, To form a pair or group, herd, swarm, school, flock, den, is to include members and to exclude members. Just like clicks here and everywhere, to include and to exclude, go hand in hand.

In captivity, there are indeed methods that allow our captive kingsnakes to include other individuals of the same species, or even other species. To a point of living together on a daily basis without interference such as removal feeding. Which to me is silly.(but thats another whole thread)(if you have to remove a neonate to get it to feed, it tells you something is wrong with its cage)

Why those opposed this will not discuss it, how its done, what causes it, what causes it to fail etc, is about them and not in the interest of education.

The tactic of making it about RIGHT or WRONG, does not apply and is only a tactic of debate. So these folks make it about right or wrong, they try to dicredit, etc etc in order to cover their own insecurities.

Which means, why can't you folks talk about the hows and why, it can be done by folks like Bluerosy or I(and others) WITHOUT problem.

Its not that you have to do it, no one is forcing you, SO why the holy heck do you oppose it so violently.

This is a discussion board, in this case we want to discuss this subject, not participate in the forming of opposing groups. Or bonding with eachother. Thanks

Replies (33)

Beaker30 Jul 11, 2011 12:42 PM

I have been considering housing multiple snakes as a method of keeping. I am having a problem with the concept being called bonding. Is it really the mental capacity to form a "bond" with another snake, or is it simply instinctive behavior resulting from seeking correct temps, etc? I tend to rather think the snakes are tolerating each other in a truce sort of manner in order for each to gain some sort of survival advantage such as proper temps, humidity, etc. In other words, they tolerate each other to the mutual survival gain of both. But I think the concept of forming a true bond may not be there.
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God Bless Evolution.

Bluerosy Jul 11, 2011 12:56 PM

I tend to rather think the snakes are tolerating each other in a truce sort of manner in order for each to gain some sort of survival advantage such as proper temps, humidity, etc. In other words, they tolerate each other to the mutual survival gain of both. But I think the concept of forming a true bond may not be there

If the snakes were just tolerating each other wouldn't be easier for them to just eat each other during feeding time? Also snakes are cold bloodded , so how does keeping mutciple animals make for better temp ranges?
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www.Bluerosy.com

markg Jul 11, 2011 01:44 PM

I used to keep a group of Cal kings. Over Winter, all would be in a large plywood box, free to mingle. The oldest male and the largest female would be coiled up on or next to one another most of that time. This was repeated for many years until I gave them away. Older male was 18, female was 16-17yrs old. They stayed together and would breed in Spring.

The younger females and males did not do that until they were older, and then some paired off as well.

I couldn't prove "bonding" from this, but the above behavior was fascinating and not evident when you keep them singly. And it suggests some kind of interaction.

One Spring day I mistakenly left the cage door ajar on the older adults (room was sealed so no escape). I was at work for 12 hrs. I came home and found them mating behind some cages. I fed the female afterwards, she was voracious. It still seems odd that two kingsnakes loose in a large room would be found together just fine.
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Mark

a153fish Jul 11, 2011 05:54 PM

Well not to try to take away from your story, if they were mating, then that would explain why the male followed the female everywhere she went? But I have witnessed what might be called bonding by some, but maybe another word needs to be used.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

FR Jul 11, 2011 07:08 PM

I have to wonder why another word needs to be use. No offense, what is it about that word that bothers you?

If you take the word and treat it like glue, to bond means to stick together, well then maybe your right. You know, like epoxy, is really stuck, but rubber glue is bonded but flexible.

Lets take birds, many species do bond and sometimes for life. Yet those birds don't fly everywhere together. They just come back to the same nest. You see what I mean.

You and others here want AN EXTREME Not A but Z meaning of words or actions, when in fact, in real life, they do not occur.

For instance, I say they are bonded, and your responce will be, so they never part. Who fuggin cares if they part once in a while, or even stay and get some somewhere else, the point is, they return to eachother and are together year after year, by their own choice.

So much of whats written does not match with whats now being observed. For instance, the dominate male syndrone. Its huey. I have rattlesnake congregations what have huge males, but I will find a tiny male breeding a female, within inches of the big dominate male. And man is that thing dominate. Just not with breeding.

Also, when one of a pair fails to show up, the other does not run off seaching for another mate. They stay and wait for the mate to show up, and if it doesn't they stay there all season.

Your right thought, bonding is measure by how much and how long the pair stays together. Not just to copulate.

Back to nature, with every copulation we have ever seen, the pair stayed in attendance with eachother for months.

The problem is how you work your animals. If you kept them in groups the "bonded" pair could stay together for long periods, but thats very hard to observe when you put the male in two weeks after the first shed, or the day after the second shed, and pull him out as soon as hes done his backside business. You see, your controlling your own observations.

What is odd is you shoot down others yet have done nothing to actually have it occur. Explain that to me please.

a153fish Jul 11, 2011 07:21 PM

>> What is odd is you shoot down others yet have done nothing to actually have it occur. Explain that to me please.

I have said many, countless times FR, it "CAN" be done! But for the sake of newbies here, I have to also say that there is some risk involved. I kept Speckled kings as a youth in New Orlens, and They would go for a long time, tolerating each other, but it seemed that eventually after years sometimes, one would eat the other. I'll give you the benifit of the dopubt, that maybe I waited too long betwwen feedins or some other error, on my part. So I have done it but there are things that can go wrong if you do not follow the pre-described 12 steps to bonding pre-requisits you guys promote. I don't have a problem with Jimmy, Billy or Bob S, doing it. My focal point has always been toward the younger less experienced keeper that may read this and think, this is the NEW WAY, to be cool! Then they put their snakes together and magically end up with One fat one. You guys are hell bent on convincing everyone this is THE NEW Revolutionarry way to keep snakes, and if you don't do it this way, you will fall behind with the rest of the ignoramous. My problem is more with the delivery of the info and a couple of the obnoxious condescending messengers, than the actual message. Gotta go play Truck Driver!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

DMong Jul 11, 2011 08:01 PM

Jorge, that has got to be the most accurately put post in this entire marathon thread!

This is exactly how I see it as well....It's not the message,....it's the messengers.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

FR Jul 11, 2011 09:00 PM

A couple things, yes they would eat eachother, why is the question. You stated, then went for a long time, then what caused them to do that?

You see, you act like your a standard, not good or bad mind you, just some standard.

Lets not put blame on you, but most people Starve their snakes at one point or another.

The standard in which reptile keepers practice causes starvation. Most people feed on a rather set schedule, Snakes do NOT work that way, when its hot, they feed daily, when its cooler, less often etc. At times, most forget to feed them.

So I ask, could the blame been you? i know you will say, no, its not my fault, I fed the heck out of them just the week before. or I fed each one a fuzzie the day before. Which of course is meaningless to the snakes. Consider, every animal social or not will each their own when starving. The problem is, keepers judge the snakes on when they fed them, not the behavior of the snake. For instance, once its hot you, you can feed on monday, and your snakes will look for food on tuesday. You think, it cannot be hungry, I fed it yesterday. Well it is hungry or it would not look for food.

This goes for your speckled kings, they ATE eachother after being alright for long periods of time. That tells you something caused that, or they would have ate eachother right off the bat.

The whole point is, you have no understanding on how snakes work. If your going to keep snakes in groups, there are several ways to prevent them from eating eachother, One of course is what bluerosy said, FEED THEM ALOT. But that is not the only way, If you gave them temp choices, like lower temps, they would move to cooler temps and not have to eat. thats how they control hunger in nature. No food, go to cool, lots of food, stay at heat. The reality is they move back and forth as needed.

The problem is, you keep them one way, and expect them to do something else. If you want to learn how they really are, then ask real questions and not defend yourself.

About newbies, its more important that they learn how reptiles work, then you. They are the future. Its kinda why you cannot absorb this, your toooooo old(or something) to learn.

Its ok, you don't have to understand it, so why do you respond to all posts about this subject?

If your interested, then think about concept that reptiles can make their own choices. Not they are in captivity, so I will tell them what and when and who and how much. That you do that is why I say control. You control everything, you make them into animal lacking behavior.

Again, if thats what you want to do, then good for you. But why not let the newbies decide for themselves????? or are you controlling them too????

a153fish Jul 11, 2011 10:20 PM

>
>> Lets not put blame on you, but most people Starve their snakes at one point or another.
>>

So most people who try to do this will have one snake eat the other! Read my posts and you'll see that's what I said time and time again, ha ha. We are not going to be perfect and at some point in time, if we slip, then the snakes turn on each other? Everyone get's busy and puts off feeding for one reason or another.

>> The standard in which reptile keepers practice causes starvation. Most people feed on a rather set schedule, Snakes do NOT work that way, when its hot, they feed daily, when its cooler, less often etc. At times, most forget to feed them.

Again I agree with you here!

>>
>> So I ask, could the blame been you? i know you will say, no, its not my fault, I fed the heck out of them just the week before. or I fed each one a fuzzie the day before. Which of course is meaningless to the snakes. Consider, every animal social or not will each their own when starving. The problem is, keepers judge the snakes on when they fed them, not the behavior of the snake. For instance, once its hot you, you can feed on monday, and your snakes will look for food on tuesday. You think, it cannot be hungry, I fed it yesterday. Well it is hungry or it would not look for food.
>>
>>

I actually said I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say maybe I waited too long between feedings. That's my point, who doesn't do this?

>> About newbies, its more important that they learn how reptiles work, then you. They are the future. Its kinda why you cannot absorb this, your toooooo old(or something) to learn.
>>

I'm just trying to save them the heartache of loosing a favorite animal, or at least warn them, that there is a potential for it to happen.

>> Its ok, you don't have to understand it, so why do you respond to all posts about this subject?
>>

I'm insane!!!!!

>> If your interested, then think about concept that reptiles can make their own choices. Not they are in captivity, so I will tell them what and when and who and how much. That you do that is why I say control. You control everything, you make them into animal lacking behavior.
>>
>> Again, if thats what you want to do, then good for you. But why not let the newbies decide for themselves????? or are you controlling them too????

So we should not try to control their enviroments, temperatures, or the spread of desease, or quality of food, and water, and safe dwelling, or parasite infestation? ......It's all about control, Frank! If I can do something to control how long my snake lives, shouldn't I exercise that control, by reducing potential life threatening conditions?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Bluerosy Jul 12, 2011 04:04 PM

FR said:
"Lets not put blame on you, but most people Starve their snakes at one point or another. "
>>
Jorge said:
"So most people who try to do this will have one snake eat the other! Read my posts and you'll see that's what I said time and time again, ha ha. We are not going to be perfect and at some point in time, if we slip, then the snakes turn on each other? Everyone get's busy and puts off feeding for one reason or another"

Just look up the thread on obese snakes and you will see people do not undertsand the snakes. i keep my snakes together year round and offer temp ranges and feed through winter. i get 3 clucthes out of some and some even lay in Dec, Jan, feb and march. What does that tell you? That the snakes are breeding. Not us breeding snakes.

If you feed them properly and they are laying eggs 3x per year how can they get fat?

Oh, almost forgot... you first have to bond them and keep them together year round to do this. Then you won't have to worry about fat snakes. Just Phat snakes.
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www.Bluerosy.com

FR Jul 12, 2011 08:01 PM

You say we agree because starving them is a problem.

So then I feel compelled to ask, so if you have one all by itself in a box, its OK to starve it??? Well, I think not

Therefore, if newbies are taught what the benefits and downfalls are, they can plan to avoid the downfalls. Like not starving them.

With your way, I guess you can wait until they starve to death.

You see Jorge, you seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing or defending your approach.

Sir, you do not have to defend your methods, They are yours to do.

But coming up with all these goofy excuses is your fault and makes you look very insecure.

Why not let newbies pick the methods they want, based on what they want out of their animals. You seem to think you can pick what they will do for them. Sir, thats not yours to do.

They don't need you to protect them. If they are not mature enough to make that choice, then they are not mature enough to keep snakes. What say you?

markg Jul 12, 2011 01:50 PM

Of course he followed her to mate. This entire discussion of pair bonding is for the purpose of reproduction.
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Mark

a153fish Jul 12, 2011 05:27 PM

>>Of course he followed her to mate. This entire discussion of pair bonding is for the purpose of reproduction.
>>-----
>>Mark

True, but once that male was homed in on her scent, bonding or no bonding would stop him.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Aaron Jul 13, 2011 01:56 AM

Once I put a long term proven breeder male grayband in with a young virgin female that was definately ovulating and all he did was tongue flick a few times. So I put him in with a different female, a half-sibling which he had bred with many times, both that year and in years past, and right away he started courting her.

I did the same with the ovulating virgin female, put her in with a different male and he started courting her. Since I specifically wanted her to breed with the first male I separated this pair before they could copulate and put her back in with the first male: nothing. No breeding activity whatsoever except for some minor tongue flicking and then he coiled up in the corner.

I again separated them and put the first male in with his half-sister and they copulated. I put the ovulating virgin female in with the second male and they copulated.

I have a pretty good sized collection of graybands and this is the only instance to date that I have seen a male refuse to breed any female.

Of note is that the first male, the one that wouldn't breed the virgin female, was complely unrelated to the virgin female but the female that he did breed was his half-sister. This even though he had previously bred other non-sibling and/or completely unrelated females.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

a153fish Jul 11, 2011 05:49 PM

I said the exact same thing to Billy the other night on the phone. The snakes learn to tolerate each other, untill something gives and one decides to not tolerate it anymore, lol. Notice all the pre-requisits to keeping them together, designed to subdue their natural impulse which is to eat or be eaten. This spring I decided,that it would be cool to take a group picture of many Floridana morphs all in one shot. Guess what happened when I tried to put them together. Several of them bolted out of the cage like it was on fire, lol. Just the smell of another King made them shoot out like a loaded spring haha! That's why you have to introduce them in cold weather when they are sluggish, and you have to keep them well fed, so they don't start looking at each other like, dinner!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Bluerosy Jul 12, 2011 09:23 PM

This spring I decided,that it would be cool to take a group picture of many Floridana morphs all in one shot. Guess what happened when I tried to put them together. Several of them bolted out of the cage like it was on fire, lol. Just the smell of another King made them shoot out like a loaded spring haha

That's because they are not bonded. sheesh!~
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www.Bluerosy.com

GerardS Jul 12, 2011 09:36 PM

Rainer, you are continually repeating the same thing over and over. Wheres the scientific proof that snakes can BOND? Not you saying it because you are not proof. This stupid idea has been repeated like 8 times already. Put a page on your site explaining your theory and anyone that cares can just go there and read it when ever they want. I would rather see pics of your hybrids than read the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..........................
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

Bluerosy Jul 13, 2011 12:21 AM
FR Jul 11, 2011 06:40 PM

There is range or degrees of bonding.

First off, bonding or pair bonding, is most likely a poor word to use, but its all we have for now. I guess I could make up a word thats like bonding only REPTILE bonding.

First, you have group behavior. This is normally a function of nesting. Snakes such as rattlesnakes are live born, and volunterily stay together for a period of time, What in reality, they clump together out were we can see them. Colubrids, hatch from eggs and they do very much the same, that is, they stay in the nest chamber for a period of time. When they do this, they scent bond with the clutchmates.

With both rattlesnakes and colubrids, they stay together until after the first shed, Then they expand their range. They do not deperse out of control. Most written material does not state what happens after that, they just assume what happens.

What we see is, yes, they no longer stay coiled together, but they stay near their clutchmates and we do find them together in pairs, now and then. They just don't crawl away willy nilly. They also follow and use the same shelters.

Colubrids do the same.

Examples that can be used are, many studies have been done on rattlesnake dens. The common result when Mdna is compared, dens are make up of related individuals, with a common mother. So your seeing generations of offspring using the same sites, both winter(dens) and summer, foraging areas. Again, this is true for most colubrids.

With colubrids such as kings, its very difficult to see this as its done mostly underground or IN, crevices, hollows, holes, etc.

What we DO see is, pairs returning to set areas, and these pairs are normally the same male with the same female, and somethings trios. Usually reverse trios, 2.1. These groups, generally last 8 years, this was with tharyeri, pyros, and lyresnakes. The species I watched. The gilas I have watched have stayed in pairs much longer, 32 and still going for the longest pair. Diamondback rattlesnakes are also long lived and work in colonies, of several males and several females. We have watched the same pairs for 25 years and counting.

Now captivity, if you raise sexual pairs of kings together, you can do all manner of tests to observe bonding. But please, do not go overboard.

Many here want to argue and not understand, nature does not have are laws, nor do they get married. Even married people, screw around. and some don't come back. Its behavior. Understand that.

Thats look at examples of bonding, the first is attending. Both in nature and in captivity bonded pairs, attend eachother for long periods of time, not just to copulate. If you have a group cage, you will find the Male A attending female B, for long periods of time and other males will stay away. When Female B cycles, she will copulate with male A and tail wag(refuse) to other males. Thats were they press the vent down and move away from the unwanted males. Womas and some other pythons do this by hairpinning the tail. So the tail cannot be lifted up.

When a female is receptive to a male, she cloacal gapes, that is, she lifts her tail up and opens her cloaca up. This is not done to unwanted males.

Not to be gross, but bonded females will only copulate with their chosen male, early in their cycle, but late in their cycle, they will copulate with any male, or a doorknob for that matter. Sorry but true, female colubrids will cloacal gape late in the cycle by you touching their back and pulsating you hand. I told you it was going to get gross.

The reasons for bonding is very simple, its reliable. The concept that snakes roam aimlessly is, come on, downright stupid. No offense, but it is. Once you understand the numbers of snakes out there, Ask Paul, if they roamed aimlessly, they would be everywhere.

The main problem is YOUR understanding of snakes. You mentioned brain power, like they could not do that. To me thats academic. What does it matter what you or I think, when they DO it. The point is, they do it. They do not behavior aimlessly.

Behavior is WHAT AN ANIMAL DOES, the body is what it does it with. An animal in a shoe or sweaterbox, has no behavior, there is no need for behavior. You the keeper has taken that away.

The reality is, behavior IS the animal. But I wander almost aimlessly.

Beaker30 Jul 12, 2011 06:29 AM

This was a nice post clarifying what you meant by the concept of bonding.....right up until the part where you stated the problem was my understanding of snakes. The problem was my understanding of your explanation of what you meant by bonding, until clarified. Thanks for that.
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God Bless Evolution.

Aaron Jul 13, 2011 12:29 AM

What is your definition of a "true bond"? I'm not challenging you or anything like that. I'm just wondering because there could be many definitions, the broadest of which I would think would be like you said, tolerating each other for mutual benifit.

Whatever one's definition is, I do think it's likely that many types of snakes, if not all, seek to form social groups. This is contrary to what I can remember reading as I was growing up.

My readings left me with the overall impression that all snakes are loners and that species like kingsnakes especially were likely to fight to the death if they should happen to encounter one another anytime other than breeding season. Also that the babies must disperse quickly upon hatching lest the mother find them and eat them.

Now I believe this is very wrong and that they do form pairs and/or breeding groups and that the hatchlings trail the adults via scents in order to locate favorable thermoregulation, hibernation, hunting and watering/humidity grounds. I also believe that the reason one so often finds kingsnakes suface active at the same time is not solely because they are hunting. I think they instictively move during certain weather conditions so they can expand their territory by locating others of their own kind.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Bluerosy Jul 11, 2011 12:53 PM

The tactic of making it about RIGHT or WRONG, does not apply and is only a tactic of debate. So these folks make it about right or wrong, they try to dicredit, etc etc in order to cover their own insecurities.

Which means, why can't you folks talk about the hows and why, it can be done by folks like Bluerosy or I(and others) WITHOUT problem.

Its not that you have to do it, no one is forcing you, SO why the holy heck do you oppose it so violently

Hopefully this will bring up some civil discussion and renew interest rather than what has happened.
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www.Bluerosy.com

BlueKing Jul 11, 2011 01:14 PM

said....HAVE AN OPEN MIND and be RESPECTFUL of each other! THAT IS HOW YOU LEARN SOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH more!
Remember: BE the snake!
Maybe WE'RE the ones who need to learn how to BOND on this forum!!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

But seriously: I believe the BEST way to improve herpetoculture is to gather HONEST information from EVERYBODY that has some knowledge (no matter how little), RESEARCH on your own, OBSERVE, and don't be afraid to try different variables sometimes just like nature does to the snakes.....
Bottom line: Nobody in this world knows it all - NOBODY!.....But with so much experience and knowledge from so many people on these forums, we can go a long way towards: BEING THE SNAKE!

So: HAVE AN OPEN MIND!

KcTrader Jul 11, 2011 01:25 PM

"Why those opposed this will not discuss it, how its done, what causes it, what causes it to fail etc, is about them and not in the interest of education.

The tactic of making it about RIGHT or WRONG, does not apply and is only a tactic of debate. So these folks make it about right or wrong, they try to dicredit, etc etc in order to cover their own insecurities.

Which means, why can't you folks talk about the hows and why, it can be done by folks like Bluerosy or I(and others) WITHOUT problem.

Its not that you have to do it, no one is forcing you, SO why the holy heck do you oppose it so violently.

This is a discussion board, in this case we want to discuss this subject, not participate in the forming of opposing groups. Or bonding with eachother. Thanks
"

First off let me state Thanks for the civil post here, after trying to wade through everything that was posted over the weekend.

FR, I am only going to speak for myself but I am sure there are many that would agree. I am in no way opposed to different methods of keeping Lampropeltis. I am opposed to being treated like I am stupid. I lowered my questions in certain posts for Bluerosy to answer, but could never get an answer, well a definate answer anyway. I have asked many times the cage size, pictures of his and your setups, all this in wanting to learn your way. With all due respect neither you nor Jeremy from CBI have posted any pictures at all. Feeding,Housing,Heating, none of it.

Rainer was called out on posting pics over the weekend, and his answer was "why?" Why should I when all the naysayers will not believe it anyway......Then he posted 3 FL Kings curled up in a ball in a tub. There are many that have asked questions(maybe dumbed down ones) and have never got a real answer.... Why should pictures be posted? They are factual evidence, and if not pictures, videos of feeding...Is it that hard to do?

I just think if you and Rainer would put together a great post with pictures, videos and a little commentary, you will have a further acceptance not only by me but by the overall herp community. I am glad it works for you and Rainer, hopefully it will be accepted through out the herp community someday. Educate us like we are your peers not infidels.

I will take your test and try it with a pair of knoblochi, They are a year old and eating fuzzies, I will brumate them together this winter( Which, I thought we are supposed to keep a wide temp gradient through out the winter?30F - 75F) In the spring I will feed them together. I will video tape as much as possible, they are still to small to breed this coming spring but atleast it will give them a year to "Bond".
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Jimmy Tintle

a153fish Jul 11, 2011 05:35 PM

This is the base of the problem. FR and Rainers posts as well as a couple others, smell like dirty rags at best. They try to act civil, but belittle anyone who has different opinions. I have been saying from the begining, that it can be done, but there is a certain risk, that they do not want to aknowledge. Again assuming everyone who disagrees with them must be a newbie! Yet I have not seen any newbie here disagree! I have at leat 30 years keeping snakes, Doug has over 40! Kerby I'm sure has been doing what he does for a long time. So who are these newbies? There posts are full of inulting innuendos, and name calling. By the way Jimmy Pyros probably won't have any problems at all. It's Getula that in my experience are the ones to be carefull with. I am accused of wanting to control the animals too much, but isn't that what this hobby is about? It's all about control. Controling there space, their temps, there cleanliness, and their risks.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Bobs Jul 11, 2011 08:42 PM

I did not read the preceding posts so I don't know or care too much about what was said. I'm guessing it's a familiar neighborhood. Lol.
You appear to be trying to be a decent balanced guy trying to be respectful of other folks ideas in opposition to yours. Commendable and says a lot about you.

BUT ARE YOU CRAZY??!!!!!

You are going to give yourself an ulcer over this.
Wish it was different but it's not. What can you do?
Some times you've got to think of yourself and go "fishing "
For awhile and enjoy your animals and stay away from the Forum.

Hang in there.

a153fish Jul 11, 2011 10:01 PM

I was feeling pretty crappy, and you made me chuckle, and put a smile on my face! I know, I must be crazy, lol.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

BlueKing Jul 12, 2011 10:48 AM

that (at least in my 30 year experience with kings), Florida kings are less inclined to eat other snakes, especially the ones from south Florida. Most of the Florida kings I have had in the past were very reluctant to eat other snakes, except for a very few of course. Most would prefer rodents - especially those from South Florida (near lake Okeechobee and the cane fields)
But with Easterns, it's the opposite....I've never had one that turned down a snake meal, back when I used to bring home fresh (clean) road kills almost nightly to save money on feeding my collection.
Rainer's collection IS Mostly Brooksi, so I can see why he may not have much of a problem with Co-habitation, obviously less risk in my opinion....
But I'm not so sure about Easterns, as I haven't tried it yet...I will admit that I have found adult Easterns coiled together, resting, under the same cover that were SAME sex animals - once two males, another time two females....
So, who knows??? But after all this talk, I may give it a whirl!

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

DMong Jul 12, 2011 11:22 AM

It is an EXTREME rarity that I ever offer a snake to any of my kings, because I don't want to get them "programmed" to like them. However a couple years back there was a badly deformed Honduran hatchling that there was no hope for so I offered it to a big female floridana. Well, it hardly took one tongue flick from the time I put it in front of her to snatch it and gobble it down. From initial introduction to snatching it took every bit of 1/10th of a second!..LOL!!

However on the other side of the coin, I have had some hatchling floridana coil up with cornsnakes and would also not eat ANYTHING offered whatsoever for a LOOOOOONG time including their new-found corn friend..HAHA!!. Then one magical day, the switch to voluntarily feed on a F/T pink would be triggered in their little heads, and from that day forward would be the ravenous carnivores they are historically noted for..LOL!

Many other folks hatchling floridana, sticticeps, and eastern getula can be just like this, but eventually they come around if given enough time and a sometimes a couple force-feedings to keep them alive until they come around.

Anyway, I know you are very aware of alot of what I said here, just thought I would share some personal experiences..LOL!

About the ONLY thing I didn't have and try on some were ground skinks, and these can often be a VERY preferred prey for young getula.....so I'll never know for sure if that would have worked early on, but everything else under the sun was certainly tried and some hatchling would go by all the offerings like they were never eve there..HAHA!!. I am glad I never give up is all I can say, I will keep them alive no matter WHAT until the start feeding. I guess that is always the bottom line..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

BlueKing Jul 12, 2011 12:21 PM

Thank you for sharing that.
The more experiences I read about other folks, the better of I will be - as I have to admit: One person's experiences are only the tip of the iceberg, and may not always be the norm!!!
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

DMong Jul 12, 2011 03:14 PM

So true Zee!,.....it is all stuff that becomes sort of a library of info from countless sources to tap whenever it comes to mind. One just never stops gathering info and learning things over the years. There just isn't enough time to gather it all in..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"


serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Bluerosy Jul 12, 2011 12:06 PM

hmmm, you bring up a good question about eastern being more snake eaters than Floridas . So does that there is a risk with bonded pairs?

I would kinda agree that easterns are more likely to eat "other" snakes. I have had some eastern locales that were snake eaters. And very stubborn to switch over. I think any eastern king breeder wcan tell you that oif they work with certain locales.

but I have fed my Florida others snakes as well. I usually give them stillborn babies of various spp that were either deformed or undeveloped. I even give these to my neonates that just hatched.

They seem to know a dead snake and different species are food. Just like they smell a mouse and know.

I have kept a few eatserns over the years. I kept edisto Islands, s. Ga easterns,mosaics, intergrades ect.

i bred and produced quite a number of FL x eatserns about 15-20 years ago. i bred the s. Ga easterns to the hypo Floridas. They behaved just like all my floridas even though they offsprng i rasied up were 50/50. Nevr had any problens and they were cohabitaing yr round.

So yes they are more inclinded to be snake feeders. But does that mean they will eat each other if bonded? ,,,i don't know. I don't think experimenting with a half dozen for a few years would give the statistics . I know for sure with teh Floridas and man made FL integrades, because I have kept many together over many years.

Hypo and eastern king breeders:

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www.Bluerosy.com

BlueKing Jul 12, 2011 12:41 PM

But as YOU mentioned earlier...You haven't had too many problems with co-habitation over the years, so once I return home for good (still overseas for now), I definitely want to give it a try with some of my Easterns.... I figure that it IS possible since I have found adults in the wild that where coiled together. My last such as find was a three foot female Eastern king lying next to a 4 foot female Eastern....under a board in North Carolina....
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

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