Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, after much thought, let's touch on the obesity of Lampropeltis. Let's hear from some field guys on this issue, and some guys that feed everytime they think snakes are hungry.

I personally have fed my snake(s) on a schedule for many of years(Once a week, with the size of item to put a bulge in the mid section of the snake), over the past 2 years and reading posts on the forum some of you guys feed more regularly and until the snakes are full. Which I have taken into account. I fed my females smaller meals but more often. Sometimes multiple items at a time. Over the past 2 years I have had 3 snakes become egg bound, and 1 prolapse. I also have had a fertility issue this year. Could the fertility issue to blame on the fat reserves, to much fat surrounding the ovum for viable sperm to reach the eggs to fertilize?

Let's see if we can keep this discussion civil, I am just searching for everyones experience on this issue and if they have ever done any studies on the obesity of snakes...
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Jimmy Tintle

Very interesting subject.

Obesity is very much a horrible thing to deal with, as it is very hard to have snakes reduce their weight once they get fat. The health issues go up then.

And in captivity, the chance of them becoming obese at a quick pace is higher than out in the field. Throwing food in anytime the owner " thinks " they need to be fed, instead of examining the situations as a whole, from a nutritional/weight standpoint, may not be the healthiest route to go. Reptile vets I know have shaken their head in disgust over what is seen representing " advice " on internet snake forums, as they tire of dealing with clients coming in with fat snakes.

Nature: Unlimited ways for exercise and thermoregulation. Captivity: A Box, and limited ways to keep the snakes.

Each snake is different. Some can eat more and stay lean, some can't. While I do have a feeding schedule so to say, it is not set in stone. If I see a snake that needs less food, skip a feeding. Needs more food, feed him more.

Obesity does and will lead to egg-binding. It really does pay for females to be given as much space as possible, in terms of exercise and egg laying, coupled with a big cage. The bigger the cage, the better.

You do not see fat snakes in nature. You see fat snakes at shows and in captivity.

So, in all, leaner is better, but a healthy weight is the goal. If you have to skip a feeding here and there, so the snake can be at an ideal, lean, and non-obese weight, do so. If you need to feed more to get that snake up to a heavier weight that would be ideal, do so. The goal is a healthy weight.

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Genesis 1:1

and let them have things to do, and a good gradient too. My florida kings are more than happy to use a 95 degree warm spot right after eating for a day or two. Then they poop and are on thier merry way. But really, the ideal is learning your snake. And I'll second it being hard to get a snake to lose weight; I'm trying to get a few lbs off my Argentine boa. It's problematic. She doesn't really utilize anything warmer than low to mid 80s, and she's not a breeding female; just a pet that's gotten a bit too chunky
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Oh, you mean like Fluffy here?. The only real goal here from her owner was to see just how huge he could possibly get her for the notoriety of claiming he had the largest Burmese python. It's because of this that she died very prematurely. I have seen much thinner monster anaconda's than this grotesquely obese Burmese is. Kingsnakes can get like this too because I have seen it personally in other's collections as well.

Was she big?....sure,....was she healthy?.....hardly.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very sad, and a good example of a breeder's selfishness. Funny how animals are treated in collections. Having no voice helps ones' consience.
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Genesis 1:1

That is actually why so many reptiles get starved and neglected in personal collections and pet stores and stuff too. They don't sadly look up and cry or yelp, and they don't have huge brown eyes and cute fluffy fur either. They just sit there and wither away until they die. OR can also get fed far too much, it can definitely work both ways as many know.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

that's a reticulated python...not a burm
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Oh geeez!!, yes, I had a pic of a huge Burmese picked out just prior, and decided to use Fluffy the Retic instead of the Burm from illinois(Babe), forgot to change the text to coincide..LOL!

That was pretty embarrassing, as I have owned many of both in the past and have seen countless numbers of them elsewhere too over the decades......D'OH!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

lol yeah. Fluffy was bad, but baby was freaking grotesque.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Yeah, Baby at 403 lbs. took the word "grotesque" to a whole different level for sure.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

I saw Fluffy in person, and it was literally disgusting to see the multiple fat deposits. Unreal.
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Genesis 1:1

Doug, by her head she looks like a retic and not a burm. Anyway, interesting subject for sure. I know I overfeed my snakes and think it has caused some fertility issues.

My bad Doug, I just read you have corrected the mistake. Not like you and I should have realized you catch it!!

Uhhhhhhhh........that's a retic.........lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

don't you know that feeding them every time they move is how you maintain "bonding".
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Randy Whittington

LOL, How's your situla doing this year?
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Jimmy Tintle

Their good. I've got some eggs cooking.
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Randy Whittington

Cool, I shoot you over a message, I sent message a while back too.
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Jimmy Tintle

HAHAAA!!!....too funny man!

Best of luck with all you cool projects this season Randy!..

Mine are doing pretty decent too, although a couple disappointments popped up as we all can relate to. But all in all real good......hope yours is rolling along well bro.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Thats a big retic dude... fat one too.

Yeah, I forgot to re-write the type of python it was when I decided to use the retic instead of the huge fat-a$$ 403 lb. Burmese I was going to originally post, that's all.

Yeah, she never skipped many meals I am guessing. I remember seeing some other pics of her in the past that were even fatter looking that this one....geeez!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Diet is key to. King Cobras fed only rodents tend to be over weight and not a hard as one fed snakes. I think Kingsnakes would be the same too.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

Yeah, that is very likely Gerard, but not everybody is willing to produce their own feeder snakes like Gilligan and many others do.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Discern, Thanks great explanation but do you know of anyone working on any studies of this issue. I know it is plentiful in the hobby, just go to any show..LOL

I was trying to direct my question more towards females and during egg production. Do you think extra meals and smaller in size are better than just a regular routine for that animal? Say if she was eating a large mouse every 10 days in fall, is it better to keep this routine or to increase to 2 small mice every 7 days during the spring?

I think most of us can agree that hatchlings and yearlings and possibly 3rd year animals can use a higher amount of calories do to their growing in length and girth.
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Jimmy Tintle

" Do you think extra meals and smaller in size are better than just a regular routine for that animal? Say if she was eating a large mouse every 10 days in fall, is it better to keep this routine or to increase to 2 small mice every 7 days during the spring?

I think most of us can agree that hatchlings and yearlings and possibly 3rd year animals can use a higher amount of calories do to their growing in length and girth. "

Very much agreed!!!!

I think for females, you should feed them more during breeding season, as laying eggs is extremely taxing on them, and the extra amount of food, in realistic quantities, can only help. I fed males more as well, just because all the trucking around their cage looking for tail can be excessive at times, losing some weight here and there. I think feeding smaller items is a great idea. Back when I bred, I would feed a mixture of rat fuzzies/pups along with adult mice to my female breeders. All I did was feed them extra during the week, say every Sunday and Wednesday, instead of just Sundays. Sometimes multiple food items, sometimes just one item, depending on how they looked in terms of their weight. Small food items being fed would be equivalent. I usually fed small food items mostly right after egg laying, and gradually increased the size over a week or so. I also kept them in 20 gallon long aquariums, vs. sweaterboxes. The aquariums provided a longer area for crawling then the sweaterboxes I used. All of those factors together and I had wonderful results.

So yes, in my opinion, extra meals, be it normal or smaller sized, is very much needed for breeding females.
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Genesis 1:1

Jimmy,

Forgive me, I forgot to speak about the clutch sizes/egg issues.

One of my Cal king breeders, a Newport Beach/abberant striped female, was over 4 1/2 feet long, and would give me 14 eggs like clockwork, each year. Babies were huge and big enough to eat peach fuzzies outta the egg.

Another Cal king female of mine, a Chocolate and yellow banded beauty, was almost 4 1/2 feet long, and would give me 12 eggs like clockwork as well, with babies eating peach fuzzies as well.

From what I remember, my Pueblan milk females would give me about 6-8 eggs, big babies as well.

I had a few eggs at the most that were bad, but mostly, every egg hatched, so I was blessed with a good run.

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Genesis 1:1

Well, I feed my snakes once a week. With that they grow, shed and breed, etc. There are so many obese snakes in people's collection today it is ridiculous. The lame attempt at logic to insinuate that they will continue to offer the snake food until the snake decides that they are full is like giving food to a young kid, assuming that he will know when to stop eating.....hence obese kids and obese adults.

In the wild the food selection/availability is not every day. Even zoos put their animals on a diet or they will end up with obese animals. Captive bred raccoons become obese. Just about every captive bred animal will become obese with the human mentality that "the animal will know when to stop eating". Even with domestic animals, dogs and cats. YOU as the owner has to monitor food intake or they WILL EAT TOO MUCH!

Too funny!

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

.....agreed Kerby!..

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

There was a 'coon in palo duro I saw last week that was damn near spherical O.O I couldn't believe a coyote or something hadn't eaten it, it couldn't possibly run.
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We wouldn't have 6 and a half billion people if you had to be beautiful to get laid.

Must have been good at raiding trash cans and stuff, huh?..LOL!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very good post Kerby! That is what is so amazing about the juvenile-mentality of feeding techniques I have read about and known about all of these years. I never thought 20 years ago I would be hearing about the awful, unhealthy feeding techniques I hear about today.

I keep pits mostly, and have had northern pines get to breeding age in 2 years ( would never recommend breeding at 2 years old, but just mentioning that for size ) with once a week feeding schedules. My 3 biggest snakes, a ghost bullsnake, a northern pine, and albino sonoran gopher snake, went from being normal-mid sized adults around 4 foot long when I got them, to almost 6 foot with feedings every 10-14 days.

Balance is the key.

I do feed the kiddos much more frequently than that, but my point is, with older adult snakes, no need to give them a buffet each night.
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Genesis 1:1

Kerby, thanks. I understand the "we as owners" have the responsibility to avoid any obesity issues with our animals. I was trying to ask if anyone had done any research on whether heavy fed females tend to be less fertile and if clutch sizes increased or did the egg sizes increase? Also, if anyones thoughts were that excessive fat deposits were a reason for egg retention?

Thanks for your in put, greatly appreciated. Also, I think most of us can agree that younger snakes consume more food than an adult.
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Jimmy Tintle

**Also, I think most of us can agree that younger snakes consume more food than an adult**

I feed all my snakes once a week, so the bigger snakes definietly consume more food (by weight) than the smaller snakes.

And I also brumate all my snakes for 4-5 months.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

"I feed all my snakes once a week, so the bigger snakes definietly consume more food (by weight) than the smaller snakes.

And I also brumate all my snakes for 4-5 months

Bigger snake equals bigger prey item....so you don't feed your younger snakes more often? Gotcha, now are most of your snakes especially holdbacks breedable in the 3rd year or sooner with that type of regimine? Even with a 4 to 5 month cooling?

I actually cooled all snakes this past year, holdbacks came out of cooling with a better feeding response than previous years. And seem to grow at a more rapid pace. No recording of weights just by visual and that can be way off. Maybe that is a good study also....
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Jimmy Tintle

Yes, they breed at 2 1/2 years, and if I shorten the brumation I have bred some at 18 months.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

Thanks Kerby! Always nice to gather information without being called stupid and such...LOL
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Jimmy Tintle

...and that is how gathering info should always be like. If not, consider the source, and move on.
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Genesis 1:1

>>...and that is how gathering info should always be like. If not, consider the source, and move on.
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>>Genesis 1:1

Cmon now Billy.....practice what you preach.........lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

???????????
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Genesis 1:1

>>???????????
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>>Genesis 1:1

You said to "consider the source and move on" but I see so much dwelling over things in your posts.........I, too have been guilty of it but I try to stay out of the craziness now...........I pick and choose aspects of other folks experience......I am sure you do too Billy, but I have chosen to not get in the middle of things.........my next step will be lurker if all of this clique stuff continues........I'm no big loss though.....so who cares, huh........lol

So....just practice what you preach.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

Hey, how about posting some mexicana pics again there John????? We haven't seen much lately from your camera????
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Jimmy Tintle

>>Hey, how about posting some mexicana pics again there John????? We haven't seen much lately from your camera????
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>>Jimmy Tintle

I will tomorrow.........the hypo-e Mex Mex are getting even lighter........
Plus I have a cool striped ruthveni living with a sibling sister and an aberrant amel gal........it makes for cool pics and I'm not afraid to post them......lol
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

John,

Not caring for internet/forum playground bullies and being tired of those who make up stories for their addiction that thrives on conflict is vastly different than having a different opinion over simple things. Confronting irrational behavior that abuses the fact that animals have no voice, nor gives newbies misguided info, is not something that should be looked down upon.

But overall, does it get tiring dealing with the immaturity? You bet!!!!

Take care!!
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Genesis 1:1

John,
Not caring for internet/forum playground bullies and being tired of those who make up stories for their addiction that thrives on conflict is vastly different than having a different opinion over simple things. Confronting irrational behavior that abuses the fact that animals have no voice, nor gives newbies misguided info, is not something that should be looked down upon.
But overall, does it get tiring dealing with the immaturity? You bet!!!!
Take care!!

I agree with some of that too Billy.....

Take care as well and see you in Daytona.....
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I have worked very closely with a reptile vet for the past 6 years and since then have changed the way I do things in some big ways.
1. Utilizing muscles properly. A tub is ok, IF there are ways for the snakes to utilize their muscles in different ways such as JKruse tile stack Idea, or using fake plants to move through or rock piles if tubs are big enough.
2. Feeding, I have been feeding on a weekly basis and using the same method you have with the buldge and what not... BUT If I have a pyro or zonata that is getting overweight, I will feed every 14 days and do smaller meals but multiple items (3-4 pinks for a zonata or 3 fuzzies for a large pyro)
3.Obesity DOES affect males fertility and females becoming egg bound. The vet that I work with sees a lot of egg bound snakes every year..... First place for this one is hognose, They eat toads in the wild and mice with higher fat in captivity. We have done Ovacentesis and sx removal of eggs and almost always there is a ton of fat deposits subcutaneous around the reproductive organs.

If I am doing a weekly schedule for feeding, I give them a 3-4 week fast sometimes during the summer to help burn some fat reserves on my adults. If they are young and need a boost I don't fast them.

Yeah, the multiple-level tile stack condo's he uses for his zonata are not only a great idea for security and thermoregulation, but would certainly be a big plus in making more surface area in the given space as well.

No doubt about it, all those things contribute.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Very good post and thoughts!!
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Genesis 1:1

Thanks for a good post. Let me pick your brain some more. Do you think excessive calorie intake during production of eggs can lead to larger eggs and inturn the females have a harder time laying? I think this maybe a variable to consider also. As most of all the other posters said it is on a snake to snake feeding regimine. Which I do adventageously. So pretty much each one has a seperate feeding schedule. I just found it ironic that females that receivef extra meals and smaller items seem to be more prone to less fertility and increased risk of egg retention.
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Jimmy Tintle

In my personal opinion, yes to much intake while a snake is gravid can cause that. The first thing someone thinks when a snake is bred is that they need to be feeding so heavy, when in reality, The food supply does not always become more abundant for a gravid wild snake. Just like some humans, its not healthy for a woman to gain 50 pounds during pregnancy when shes just going to pop out a 6-8 pound baby. lol My wife lost weight in the first 6 months of pregnancy and only gained just over 18 pounds after that, but yet, a nice fat baby was born.
I keep all of my snakes on a weekly feeding. When sunday roles around, I check through all the racks and if someone is shedding I will not thaw anything out and that snake waits until next sunday, UNLESS it is an underweight or really thin individual such as a hatchling or picky eater.
If my snakes are gravid (which has only been a handful of time since I have not bred too many species) I feed them as normal until they start bulking up. When I notice them bulking up a lot, Then I switch to smaller meals. I was also told that pinkies and small fuzzies have more calcium and its good to feed nestlings to your gravid females. I don't know if there is truth to that or not. After a female has done her pre lay shed, I cease feeding even if the opportunistic snake would still eat. Even though most snakes do not eat at this time, I hear of some people trying to feed them anyways. I think it is better to not stress them out and leave them be. After my snake lays, I continue to wait a week or two to feed them. I never pull eggs and feed right away.
This method has worked for the animals that I have bred (Clarus phase longnose snakes, san gabriel zonata parvirubra, pyro, and cali kings) and I have never had an egg bound snake.
As far as fertility goes, I have always worried more about temps in the spring because I was told it was an issue. I always introduce after ovulating shed at night when its cooler and keep temps low.

I do have to say one more thing, With the animals that I have chosen to breed, I have had some pretty healthy clutches of babies hatch as well as all being good feeders.
My only exception to this was the longnose snakes and zonata. My first time breeding zonata was a nightmare with ZERO hatches. The next year (this year) I kept temps lower and bred them at night and had no issues. Eggs looked great. (thanks for the advice from Scott Powely)
ALL and I repeat ALL of my longnose have REQUIRED scenting of the mice and some even were not big enough to eat the mice, So I found my self cutting pinkies heads off. lol

Is your vet aware of milksnakes having such issues from fat content of mice? I feed my pueblans mice and rat pinks and was wondering if this will eventually affect them negatively. Thanks!

Fliptop, that is one nice looking campbelli!!!!

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Jimmy Tintle

Thank you! As is the one you posted. Mine was produced by Home Grown Herps and I will attempt breeding him perhaps next year or the following. I plan on pairing him with a hypo I got from Mike Falcon (see his pic).

Cool, that's a sweet Hypo too! Is that a Bell Line hypo or LA Line hypo? Here's a pairing I did between the 2 different lines.

The darker of the 2 is the Bell Line animal, I should have hatchlings in a few days from the first clutch...
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Jimmy Tintle

Nice hypos! I'm not sure which line. She kinda looks like your lighter one. One of these days I'll get better pics! Now I'd still like to know how a pueblan might be negatively affected by living exclusively on a rodent diet, if at all!

Well, interesting enough, He has a couple pueblans, celanops and annulata.
Of the three, the annulata seem to get obese the easiest and the pueblans can put on weight but he has not seen as much of an issue.

I have even seen this guy double clutch year after year feeding small meals all the way up to egg laying practically and then immediately re introducing male to the enclosure. I even saw him triple clutch a snake last year.

Overall, pueblans and hondurans tend to have less of an issue than others with obesity. Maybe because they tend to be stressy and move quicker and tougher with all the muscles they can use??

Thank you!

I have only young snakes from '08 onward. My pyros like to eat for the most part every ten days. Multiple small meals. Some do like to eat more often and so I feed those guys more often. My pituophis generally would eat until their eyes pop out, but I am careful to feed them just enough to fill them but not stuff them as pits seem more prone to regurge if they eat too much at a feeding. As my snakes age I will make sure they do not get fat. I have a friend who was trying to slim down a 15 year old corn snake she had inherited which was so fat he looked like a sausage with the tail being the end of the casing, and his body felt squishy. YEEG!

I give my snakes as big of habitats as I can provide with things to crawl around in and deep substrate to burrow in, and other things to push or climb around on. So they can have some exercise. The opportunity for exercise cannot be stressed enough, in my opinion. I eat more calories than my partner but am leaner even though I am much shorter than him because he has a heart condition and exercise is difficult for him to do, whereas I can stack firewood for hours, other such vigorous exercise. Any animal kept in a little box with no way to exercise will likely get fat. Making it go on a diet or chronically underfeeding it is not the answer. More opportunities for exercise will greatly help it stay lean.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

The constant obesity, where the animal is fat all the time, is not good for any animal.

Temporary gluttony is fine, like in Spring and Fall. Females do need energy to develop and lay eggs successfully. What females do not need is too little food when they need the energy, then too much food when they don't need the extra energy.
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Mark