Reptile & Amphibian Forums

not that it matters...but i'm in support of the bonding issue, i didn't do it with my kings but it did work well with my pines. there were preferences observable especially at breeding time.

anyhow this just got me thinking, maybe it might be wworth the effort to get this in book or e-book form. i can't seem to think of anything new added to the herpetocultural library sonce the 90's, and even then it wasn't...really...new...

you know what they say, controversy sells, and if the idea sells, then behind it follows a new generation of cages and equipment like the terrarium/naturalistic movement of the 90's.

anyhow, just an idea. i think if people followed the concept from step one it would be better accepted, instead of trying to get an old snake to learn new tricks, like cohabitation.

enjoy,
daveb

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

Whats this number seven. I change my mind give rianre his own forum.
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Gerard
www.livebaitclip.com

"I fight knowledge with ignorance"HAHAhaha..............

It seems to me there are two issues here.

1) How to manage risks of cannibalism in housing kings together

2) Increased breeding response, as dave reports above, if pairs are "bonded" and housed together. (DISCUSSED IN NEXT POST)

The first issue seems pretty simple: Rainer and others say they've housed pairs together starting when they are juveniles, and have not had one animal eat the other. Plenty of others report (and I've experienced) acts of cannibalism from lampropeltis pairs in breeding setups, when the pairs were not together since an early age.

Can't both be true? I don't see enough "content" on the "bonding" issue to warrant a book: Rainer & others have summed it up thoroughly, it seems, in pretty brief posts.

The disadvantage of it is that it only works if you keep the pair together. If you house a and b together from their youth, and c and d together from their youth, i've not seen it argued that putting a and c or b and d together as adults will be any safer than if they'd not been bonded with other mates from an early age.

And if THAT is the case, then bonding holds much less promise for today's breeders, who might not even suspect what genotype they'll want to breed a hatchling to when it matures, compared to one or two decades ago when a breeder knew his hatchling florida king would eventually be bred to a florida king so its mate could be chosen early on. We read often here of breeders who learn what a snake's het for from trial breedings, leading to insights for subsequent breedings to different mates for strategic reasons. To the extent that's pretty common these days, it renders bonding immaterial.

But for locality breeders, for ex, IF it works, why shouldn't some breeders experiment more? (Reports of one or a couple breeders here is strictly anecdotal, no matter how trusted those breeders are: their reports are the stimuli to greater testing, before the practice is proven.)

PLS SEE PART 2, below

To summarize the preceding post: there are two issues, as I see it, to the "bonding" discussion. Part 1--avoiding cannibalism--is discussed above.

The second part is:

2) Increased breeding response, as dave reports above, if pairs are "bonded" and housed together. (DISCUSSED IN NEXT POST)

Again, if anecdotal evidence shows this increases the effectiveness of breeding (or minimizes the number of cages to house a breeding collection) then it should be tested further.

My problem with this part of the potential benefits is that I've seen Hondurans, nelsoni, getula so eager to breed with multiple mates, and with mates only minutes after they're introduced for the first time, that it's hard for me to imagine how my animals could have produced more, or bigger, or healthier offspring than they did. Fertility was very high. Hatch rates were very high. What is there to be improved upon? If only half my kings or milks bred in a given year, I'd be singing a different song and signing up to try every new technique proposed, but that's not the case.

But (as is the case in part 1, above) for locality breeders willing to take a chance that one animal might eat the other, then let them test it. I just hope the findings are reported with scientific rigor. But if our snakes are already breeding "to capacity"--that is, if getting two kings or milks to breed is not viewed as a difficult challenge-then the benefit of the bonding technique would appear to be that it makes the keeper's life easier by halving the number of cages necessary. What's wrong with that?

id say go with a movie... could get lorenzo lamas as the star(rainer), and a fine hottie MILF like stevie nicks as the mod.(cindy)... daveB you could totally be portraid by that guy brian cranston from the new breaking bad show on amc you just need to comeon back home and get some kings!!! come on its gotta be killin you!...
hmmm lets see of course tom selleck for doug im definately thinking bruce willis as me with a beard of course or willie nelson... you know jeffB would have to be played by deniro, or pacino, marlon brando coulda NAILED it!
tom stevens... gene simmons, TOTALLY!
crimsonking markK...maybe jeff bridges
andyfliptopfotopolous...hmmm, owen or luke wilson maybe brad pitt
randyW... maybe woody harrelson
i dunno would have to work on casting but a movies the way to go!
geez who could be FR??? that bardo guy from no country for old men or i suppose tommy lee jones or maybe gary busey!
just havin funwould be a killer movie!

XOXOXO,,,,,,,,,thomas

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

you will take a picture with anyone, lol...

i still have that hat and those sunglasses, but ditched the pack.

controversy sells that's all i have to say. there's been almost no new herpetocultural books in eons this could really be a deal breaker! if you want to do the movie first, great, you can shoot it all on your cell phone just like they do in the tv commercial. that will definitely stir interest in the book.

btw you can have stevie nicks, and the wilson sisters.

oh well, back into aestivation...

daveb

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odelay odelay odelay hee hoooo...
heeeeya huhhhh!
~Back in the saddle (Aerosmith)

your no fun anymore
i miss the "old" dave you know the, in the light you will find the road dave!
come on home man.
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

>>id say go with a movie... could get lorenzo lamas as the star(rainer), and a fine hottie MILF like stevie nicks as the mod.(cindy)...
Thomas,

You realize I think Stevie is old enough to be my grandmother right?
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
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Sure he wasn't thinking age, more like vibe.

naa stevies not that old, but i digress,,, maybe we could get miley cyruss or dakota fanning to play you
or i reckon you could play yourself in the movie
,,,,,,
thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

?

In case Cindy does you in can I have some of your snakes?
I saw a few that might look good here.

sure thing buddy or course same thing applies huh? you got some real lookers that would fit right in hereespecially...cough,cough,sulfur,cough
,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

maybe angelina jolie, oooo yeah kickin A$$ and deletin posts... and for you bob im thinkin danny devito, all in fun.
,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Cripes! He goes ancient to pre-teen! Dunno what is in the water. Drew Barrymore is more my age. In fact she is my age!
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
Visit kingsnake on Facebook!
Follow Kingsnake on Twitter!

I'm sure life is tough enough for him looking like Grizzly Adams. Lol.
( I really liked that show )