Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone bred any hets to sharp or are all the
hets out there khal strain?

anyways heres my het male breeding, the female just ovulated 2 weeks ago cant wait for this litter

The best way for me to answer this is:

All the original Roswell Boas before they were known to carry a trait (These would be Heathers original Adults
and any siblings to those) are all het Kahl Albino.

So the Kahl gene is floating around in any litter produced some
will be het some will not be het.

So people will have to prove that out first whether or not their
Roswell Boa is a het Kahl Albino/

Once they prove or disprove het Kahl then a decision can be made
to breed that particular Roswell Boa to a Sharp Alb or whatever.

I hope my explanation made /makes sense

. . . Lar M

-----
Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Larry basically covered it I do know Jeff has bred his Keywests into Sharps already.

I myself will likely be trying for BWC x RLT this year.

I personally will not be proving my pair of RLT to be het or not het for kahl and while some people may disagree with that that is their choice.

I plan on breeding my RLT animals into only T Positive (BWC and VPI PP) and to Bloods and other pattern traits for double pattern co doms.
-----
Brandon Nixon

Not that I know of, and I definitely hope not! Todd Smith’s litter of 2004(?) contained the laddertails that ended up being Roswell-laddertails (RLTs) – discovered as a result of Heather Martin’s fortuitous breeding of laddertail siblings from that litter. All in Todd’s litter were 66% possible het Kahl-albino. As far as I know, all of the possible hets from that litter that have been bred have proven to be het-Kahl. Only a small number of offspring from these original boas have grown large/mature enough to breed to date, and those that have been bred, as far as I know, have all proven to be het-Kahl – with ONE exception that I’ll discuss later.

So, the issue is that to date, all of the Roswell stock out there are at least possible het-Kahl, so any breeding to Sharp-albino stock could potentially produce a mess that boa breeders have strived to avoid for many years – double-hets for Sharp and Kahl albino. This also applies to breeding current Roswell stock into, for example, T+ morphs; you can do it, but the babies produced would be possible het-Kahl, and one must consider whether or not such babies would be desirable to other breeders. Selling such boas without acknowledging the het-Kahl possibility would obviously be flat-out dishonest.

It is easy to prove that a possible het-Kahl is indeed het-Kahl – if it is bred to a Kahl or het-Kahl and produces even one albino, the possible het has proved out to be het-Kahl. But how do you prove that a possible het-Kahl is not het-Kahl? You can’t. No kidding. You cannot ever 100% prove it, you can only mathematically demonstrate that it is highly likely that it is not het-Kahl (or conversely, highly unlikely that it is het-Kahl). The way it works is that, when the possible het is bred to a Kahl or het-Kahl, the more offspring produced without producing an albino, the more likely it is that the possible het is actually not het-Kahl.

The one exception I mentioned above is a male RLT 66% possible het albino. He was bred (by another breeder from whom we later acquired him) to a double-het sunglow that produced a litter of 10 babies, none of which were white. With this het to het breeding, one would expect 1 of 4 offspring to be albino (and could be hypo or not, but the hypo gene has no effect on the inheritance of the albino trait so we can ignore it for this exercise). 3 of 4 offspring would be expected to be not-albino. So, the probability of the male RLT being het albino and producing 10 not-albino offspring in this scenario is (3/4)^10, or 5.6%. In other words, we are 94.6% certain that the male RLT is not het-Kahl, but there is still a 5.6% probability that he is het-Kahl. Phrased yet another way, a litter of 10 babies produced from a het to het breeding will have no albinos 5.6% of the time (5.6 times in 100). I have certainly experienced worse odds than that, and so in my opinion this is far from adequate to justify crossing him into Sharp-albinos.

If we continue to breed this male RLT to females that are het-Kahl, to get to where there is only a 1 in 100 chance of him being het-Kahl, he needs to produce 6 more not-albinos (16 total) without an albino. 24 total not-albinos without an albino puts him at a 1 in 1,000 chance of being het-Kahl, 32 puts him at 1 in 10,000, and 40 puts him at 1 in 100,000. I personally would want to see him at least into the range of only a 1 in 10,000 chance of being het-Kahl before considering crossing him into Sharp-albinos.

If a possible het-Kahl is bred to a Kalh-albino, it requires far fewer offspring because the probability of producing an albino from a het-Kahl to Kahl breeding is 1 of 2 rather than 1 of 4. It would take only 14 babies with no albinos to put the possible-het at less than a 1 in 10,000 chance of being het-Kahl. 17 babies with no albinos would put the possible-het at less than a 1 in 100,000 chance of being het-Kahl, and 20 would put it at just under 1 in 1-million. Even then, it is still not “proven” to be not het-Kahl (and never can be), but it would demonstrate that the possible-het is VERY likely not het-Kahl with the statistics to back it up.

Congrats on what sounds like a successful breeding, and best of luck on the litter!

Steve Reiners

www.BoaMorph.com

My understanding was that the original litter produced by Todd Smith was the original Roswell gene carrying Suriname import female, that was bred to a Kahl Albino, making 50/50 Suriname Colombian het Albinos. I am sure that I was I have read previously. Those 50/50 crosses that were het Albino were relatively expensive too. Something like $3000/pair. If that is the case, that would explain why all that have been bred from that first litter have proven to be het Albino. Otherwise, those first animals from that first litter would have been produced using a het to Suriname breeding?
-----
Jeff Ronne Sr
The Boaphile
Director USARK

Originator of Boaphile Plastics
The Boaphile Boa Site

The RLTs in Todd's original litter were 100% het-Kahl as you described. Hence their 66% possible het-Kahl offspring when bred to each other or other hets. The handful of their 66% poss-het kids that have bred produced litters to date have, as far as I know, all proven out het-Kahl with the one exception I noted in my original post.

Thanks for that correction, and pardon my mental flatulence - don't know where my mind was last night...

Steve Reiners

www.BoaMorph.com

These are Todd's remaining founder stock , these three Boas are sibling's to Heathers, now yours Steve and all het Albino

{Was going to list Images here but changed my mind.}

The litter that produced Heathers Adult Boas that now belong to you Steve was produced
in 2003 and all those Boas produced in that Todd Smith Litter . . . . .
Laddertail and non Lasddertail alike are all Het Albino.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
From a KS Ad earlier this Feb

1.2 ROSWELL LADDERTAILS Available from the PRODUCER of the FOUNDING STOCK in 2003!

These were produced by breeding an Albino Male (Kahl strain) to an import Suriname Female in 2003 and ALL the offspring were LADDERTAILS. So, these are "50/50" Columbian/Surinames that are 100% Het ALBINO!

Heather Martin (who purchased her animals from me) produced the FIRST ROSWELLs from siblings of these animals offered for sale.

Male is a PROVEN PRODUCER and the largest female has bred, but did not ovulate in 2010. The smaller female produced a small litter in 2009.

All are in perfect health, range in size from 7-9 feet

________________________________________________________________

So any siblings to Heather's are Het Albino.

When you breed those Laddertail siblings together they produce Roswell (Super Roswell) and Roswell (Laddertails) some of the offspring will be Albino and the rest will be 66% pos Het Albino boas.

. . . Lar M
-----
Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

If im hypothetically going to do a RLT hets project, lets say i want to do a Russian T-Positive pairing. I want to make Russian T/RLT DH and breed those siblings back into each other OR directly into a Russian T visual. what matters whether or not I produce OR dont produce any Kahl albinos in the project. Why would i take a year or more delay to determine whether my RLT is het for Kahl or not?

In the event I did this scenario pairing and produced DH Russian T/RLT poss Kahls and when i bred those to each other I produced Super Roswells, Supers that are Kahl and supers that are Russian and RLT hets of the same, how am I causing detriment to my project to and thus to projects of others? I ask because in the event I am reading it wrong, the possibility of a RLT being het Kahl could be bad in some way. In what way could this be more than just a "surprise" or more than just a realization the the RLT is het for both Russian T and Kahl...Excuse my ignorance in advance please....

I agree with you on this Manny my projects with the RLT will not include any more of T- albino....

Taking time to breed your animal to a kahl and loose an entire year and produce animals that dont fit into your projects and produce more poss hets or hets to place doesn't fit into my plan.

Because if those animals dont sell I would then be left with a bunch of 50%/66%/100% het kahls which do me no good. Meanwhile if I bred the animal to my choice of T pos bwc/vpi/russian if those animals didnt sell that just mean I have more holdbacks to produce the animals that I want to look at when I open up my cages...
-----
Brandon Nixon

Thanks for all your info guys i always wondered why all
the roswells were het khal and why nobody was breeding them to sharp ill find out in a few months if my guy is het or not.
Thanks again

Because the originasl Question was about Sharp Albino's not Russian T Blondes or BWC's or anything else.

So that is how I answered the question, breeding Kahl to Sharp is
still a big mess waiting to happen , in my opinion !

So I believe a responsible person will prove their Roswell Laddertail or Super Roswell
is not Het Kahl before they breed it to a Sharp Albino !

. . . Lar M
-----
Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

Call me crazy but if all my albinos got loose in my room. About 20-25 or so, all 4ft I could put them all back in their cage 100% accurately from sharp and Kahl. At about 2ft, they're clearly different, but I understand better the dilemma now, I would just breed them back to a sharp and not each other and the heck with it...

And because you can never truly "prove" that a possible-het is not a het, the statistical means of demonstrating that it is highly unlikely to be a het was provided in my original reply above.

Steve Reiners

www.BoaMorph.com

I did not mean to imply that there is something inherently wrong with pursuing some of these other combos without proving out the 66% het-Kahl one way or the other first. Just that folks need to be aware that they will be creating baby boas that are also possible het-Kahl, and whether the combination of the Kahl gene with the others (Russian T in your example) is desirable or potentially problematic (as with Kahl x Sharp which has been a no-no among breeders for many years, though still an interesting debate).

Part of my concern over this issue arises from conversations I have had with at least three RLT owners during the last couple years who said that they planned to "basically ignore the 66% het-Kahl." When I asked them to clarify what they meant by that, it turned out that none of them had considered the consequences to future litters if their 66% het did turn out to be het-Kahl - so using your example, they had not considered that future breedings of those offspring could produce boas that are Russian T, Kahl, and both. Again, not that there is necessarily anything wrong with that, but these folks in "ignoring" the 66% possible het-Kahl literally had planned on doing crosses such as to Russian T, and selling the offspring as het-Russian-T RLTs with no mention that they are also possible het-Kahl. After we discussed a bit further and the lightbulb turned on for them, they understood why that might not be the most honest and ethical approach - they had not intended to be dishonest or unethical, they just had not thought it through.

A buyer of those boas might or might not be pleased to have the Kahl gene pop up down the road, but should absolutely be informed that it is a possibility so that they know up front how that may impact their breeding plans, and whether in their eyes the possible-Kahl is of additional, negative, or neutral value.

It's also important for all to understand that the original possible het and every offspring it produces remain possible hets until mathematically demonstrated otherwise via the statistics provided in my original reply above.

Steve Reiners

www.BoaMorph.com

Well put Steve that's basically all I mean. That is my point . . .
as long as people disclose the possibilities everything should be fine.

With the exception of the Sharp / Kahl thing which I have No Desire
or intention of rehashing or to go into at length
with anybody at this point.

People that have read this Forum for any length of time know my
thoughts on that possible Sharp / Kahl fiasco.

I personally have no problem with a mix litter of VPI / Kahl or T Blonde / Kahl etc . . . type litter . . . . . .
but some people might have a problem with it as you pointed out.

So the best measure is to point out this possibility that the
Kahl gene could be floating around in the "RLT".

Thx
. . . Lar M

-----
Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

but you probably already knew that.....let me know if you would like his phone #.

Yeah I found him lol thanks hows everything going with you?
I lost your number and I have different phone number now let me know if you ever need rodents.