Reptile & Amphibian Forums

these two are about breeding age size and I'm excited to get them together
and see what I get, what are my odds for babies?
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1.0 FWC,1.0 motley het sharp, 1.0 columbian,1.0 ETB, 1.0 jungle carpet , 0.1 sunglow albino,0.1 bolivian amarilli,0.1 great basin I rattler, 1.1 monocled cobras, 1.1 uracoan Rattlers,0.1 gaboon, 1.0 rhino viper,

Low odds for the best babies but still a fun pairing....

1/32 Moonglow
1/32 Snow
3/32 Sunglow pos het Moonglow
3/32 Albino pos het Snow
3/32 Ghost pos het Moonglow
3/32 Anery pos het Snow
9/32 Hypo pos het Moonglow
9/32 Normal pos het Snow
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

doesn't it depend on if the th moonglow is a super or not?

it's late and I'm not an expert at punnet squares - but i'm getting different results.

if the th moonglow is a super hypo - there would not be any albinos, anerys, normal double hets or normals in the mix.

if the hypo is not a super - than the litter could include the following:
snow
moonglow
albino het snow
sunglow het moonglow
anery het albino
ghost het moonglow
dh snows
th moonglows
normals
hypos

it's just a tad too late for me to figure out the ratios of each.

dh snow X th moonglow (not a super hypo)
1/32 moonglow
1/32 snow
3/32 sunglow pos het moonglow
3/32 albino pos het snow
3/32 ghost pos het moonglow
3/32 anery pos het snow
9/32 pos th moonglow
9/32 pos dh snow

dh snow X super th moonglow
1/16 moonglow
3/16 sunglow pos het moonglow
3/16 ghost pos het moonglow
9/16 pos th moonglow

except for the possibility of the th moonglow being a super..

that was quite the challenge.

thanks for the clarification on odds! Weird that it tallies up like that.. My Motley dh X TH Moonglow made :

2/34 moonglows ( that don't look like any moonglows Ive ever seen, or anyone thats seen them)
0/34 snows
4/34 sunglows (1 motley)
3/34 albino ( 1 motley)
6/34 ghosts(5 motley)
8/34 th (2 motley)

At this moment , I cant remember what else you put on your list or the specific numbers in my head.. but I think its odd that my numbers mirrored the Super's odds more than the regular TH....

Any opinions on that? She's an 04 Frank Martin Orangasm.Thanks!!

jamess

the numbers only represent the chances of getting certain results. the actual outcome could end up being much different - but usually it is close to the predictions.

the other poster had it correct except for the possibility of the hypo being a super.

for a hypo to have a chance of being a super, it would have to come from a litter produced by a hypo female and a hypo male. generally, super hypos have very little or no black on the tail saddles.

If you haven't seen how a punnett square work, I would encourage you to do an internet search. it's acutally pretty simple, but gets more complicated as you add more traits - such as the cross you are exploring which includes three traits - anery, albino and hypomelanism.

How to Manual: Multi morph and Punnet Squares....

Often I see where the same folks that can figure out a simple punnet square on one or two morphs are struggling to figure out the outcomes multiple morph genetics involved. It's actually fairly simple and straightforward.

There are two basic outcomes of interest.....

1) What visual phenotypes should/could pop out

2) What are the probabilities of any of those specific outcomes

Both are easily answered with just a little math....

For example Jungle Sunglow het Moonglow x Jungle het Snow (complicated on purpose)

Expand that out to show all the genetics involved......

Jungle, Hypo, Albino, het Anery x Jungle, het Albino, het anery

Now separate them into the individual traits, remember to show both animals for each trait......

Jungle x Jungle
Hypo x Normal
Albino x Het Albino
Het Anery x Het Anery

Then work out the visual phenotypes and odds for each trait.....

Jungle x Jungle = ¼ Super Jungle, ½ Jungle, ¼ Normal
Hypo x Normal = ½ Hypo, ½ Normal
Albino x Het Albino = ½ Albino, ½ Normal
Het Anery x Het Anery = ¼ Anery, ¾ Pos het Anery

The total number of visual phenotypes equals the product of the individual trait phenotypes (multiply them all together)....

#Jungle x #Hypo x #Albino x #Anery = 3 x 2 x 2 x 2 = 24

Which says if the litter were large enough and the odds gods were totally fair, there would be 24 different looks in all the babies.

Individual outcomes continued in next post due to KS limits on post length.........
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

To figure out the odds on any one of those outcomes (yeah, if you want all 24 you have to repeat the process 23 more times) Pick one phenotype from each of the visual traits. Then multiply the odds for each of those phenotypes.....

Examples....

Super Jungle, Hypo, Albino, Anery (yeah, might not able to visually ID all the traits with all that's going on, for the sake of this discussion, all are visible one way or another))
¼ x ½ x ½ x ¼

Or 1 x 1 x 1 x 1 over 4 x 2 x 2 x 4 = 1/64 or one in 64 babies from that pairing would be a Super Jungle Moonglow

One more, what are the odds on normal looking wild type baby (remember, you have to select one from each group) so......

Normal(Jungle) x Normal(Hypo) x Normal(Albino) x Normal(Anery)
¼ x ½ x ½ x ¾ = 3/64

Hope this helps, I know many get confused at first but once you grasp the concept, you'll always know how to figure out even the most complicated outcomes.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

I know, splitting hairs but the original question was TH x DH outcomes.

By definition "TH" is triple het and therefore is Heterozygous for three different traits, not homozygous for any of the three.

If the Hypo was a Super then it would be a Super Hypo het Moonglow.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

you are correct Dave. I apologize for suggesting you were not correct in your initital response. the question intrigued me and once I started trying to use the punnett square to figure it out on my own it took me several tries to get it correct... but I felt a great sense of satisfaction to finally see that I got the same results as you.

I hadn't thought of the technicality of a "TH" not being a super hypo by deinition.
I'm not sure if many breeders hed thought of that technicality either as I don't think I have ever seen a boa described as a "superhypo het moonglow" or even "superhypo het sunglow" for that matter - I think people would generally just refer to them as a DH sunglow that is also a superhypo....

You may have just started a new trend in how people refer to their superhypos that are het for certain traits.

np, no need to apologize. I'm just keeping up the good fight to keep us herpers identifying genetics correctly. Many of the genetics terms we toss around are very specific and precise but not always used correctly.

As for the ads, I think it's rare to see a Superhypo het Sunglow as it's not often to have a known super hypo baby since both parents would have to be known Supers (or Hypo Motley). More often I see DH Sunglow pos super which is a correct statement - known to have two morph genes and possible to have a third.

I do have a recent litter from known Super ghost to a TH Motley Ghost (Hypo Motley het Anery) where the babies will fall into one of four phenotypes:

Motley Ghost
TH Motley Ghost
Super Ghost
Super Hypo het Ghost (or Super Hypo het Anery)

And yes, this is one of the gray areas talking about Hypo and Motley being DH as they reside on the same gene locus. Still the animal is Het for Hypo and Het for Motley, just not het for normal in either the Hypo or Motley morph.

Did you see my post on mathematical punnet squares?
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

> And yes, this is one of the gray areas talking about Hypo and Motley being DH as they reside on the same gene locus. Still the animal is Het for Hypo and Het for Motley, just not het for normal in either the Hypo or Motley morph.

Back in late February, Josh Ketchum had a post in this forum about hypo and motley. As I recall, he said that he had gotten a few normals and hypo motleys from hypo motley x normal matings. If that is accurate, then the two mutant genes may not have the same locus.

The two loci may be pretty closely linked instead. If so, mating a hypo to a motley would produce babies with a hypo mutant gene linked to a normal gene on one chromosome and a normal gene linked to a motley gene on the other chromosome. Mating this to a normal would produce mostly motleys and hypos with only a small percentage of normals and hypo motleys.

I tried to contact Josh to get more information but had no luck. It's something to think about, though.

Paul Hollander

Thanks Paul, I missed that post.

Just recently had a litter from Known Super Ghost and Hypo Motley Het Ghost (TH Motley Ghost) and still waiting for first shed. Pre-shed it looks like 1/2 Hypo Motleys and 1/2 Hypo (presumed Super) with a Mix of anery and het Anery thrown in as well.
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count (02/01/2010):
42.61 BRB
27.40 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats