Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Nicaraguan mother:

Smoke Mayan Sire (his sire was het Sunset-hypo'/mother a Mayan Nic'):


Only 5 live babies, one dead,17 slugs:

Very cool and interesting babies. I don't think I have seen Mayans before. Where did they come from? I see that the father is a cross (I am also confused by "het sunset/hypo", but I know sunsets are hog islands crossed with hypos).
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Davey Giltner

The grandsire was a het sunset (Hypo' X Hog), so was codom' hypo. Although the Hog percentage affects color some, it is not the single source of the color variations. I never expected getting a "new" morph when I traded for them, but had an extreme-ghost project in mind because the Nic's were "poss het anery-2." The original Mayans were female Nicaraguans that had high color, and the few litters I've produced from them, both inbred, line-bred, and outbred, have produced jungly aberrancies in both color and pattern. You can get very hypomelanistic appearing offspring and slightly hypermelanistic/speckled in the same litter; and very hypoerythristic as well as hypererythristic in the same litter...and any combination of these traits. Pattern can be visibly "normal" to, as you can see, totally dorsally striped...and everything in between. I have not identified a "super" although I've only gotten extremely light ones/white eyes in the inbred/line-bred litters, but not in numbers that confirm anything. I think there probably is no super visibly.

We must have been typing at the same time. Sorry.
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Davey Giltner

For longest thread???

I looked them up. There seems to be a lot going on with the Mayans; too much to understand. I do have some questions though.
Are there any Mayans that are not crosses? I saw an ad where you said that they are "inbred/line bred, and outbred". By reading other posts you have made here it seems like a lot of the out-breeding is done with other localities with varying phenotypes.

I haven't seen pictures of the adult that started it all that you say looks like an Aztec, nor do any of the babies I have seen look like an Aztec. Has that animal been paired with one of the same locality, or have all of the aberrant animals come from breeding multiple mixed localities. Nics, Cancun, Hog Island, and Colombians at least are all included in the production.

I am not a purinst by any stretch of the imagination. I just want to know if the animals shown in your posts are things that pop up in pure breedings, or if they could possibly be the result of too many physical characteristics being thrown together and not knowing where to line up.

An example of what I am asking:
It is accepted that most "Colombian hypos" are of mixed locality,probably with Panamanian blood. However, crossing a Panamanian to a Colombian did not create the hypo. The Panamanian was already hypo.

Example 2: Roswells came about from breeding laddertails of mixed subspecies; BCC x BCI. As far as I know, the animals that produced the first hets were never bred to their own subspecies to try to prove out a pure BCC or BCI Roswell. The mutations is ONLY known as a cross, and I would guess never would have happened if they weren't crossed.

Are there any Mayas that can be traced back to the original animal being paired to at least a like locale? Do they look like the original animal, or do they look like the ones posted here? I get that they breed true now. I am not arguing against that. JUst wondering if the "morph" would have come about showing the results you have without the mixing.
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Davey Giltner

I thought that I may breed "pure" Nicaraguan Mayans next year if I still have them, but I'm looking to reduce my collection which could conceivably include the originals at this point. Quotations because that's what I got them as, but as with most people's boas, since I did not physically collect them myself in Nicaragua I can only be so confident in their purity. I AM confident in the results I've been getting, and am more interested in breeding the very few holdbacks poss het pewter, poss het T-positive(Nic X Cancun) snow, Mayan X Blue Moon line that I am definitely keeping rather than continuing to "prove" something I already know in a "pure" line I can't prove is pure I think the Mayan gene will lighten/clean up the bloods, ghosts, pewters, plasmas. I think in combination with T-positive Colombian morphs it may eliminate the "leaky gene" making them retain the juvenile coloration; imagine a ten foot Pink Panther VPI with juvie colors!

I have asked before, and I will ask again.

CAN WE SEE PICTURES OF EACH OF YOUR "MORPHS" ALONG WITH A NAME?

Until then, who knows what a Mayan, Smoke, Aztec like animal is.

By the way, nice babies. Mutts all the same, but nice babies. Hold them back and prove them genetic.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

And I will say it again: It is one morph/genetic mutation that is inherited dominantly (proven in multiple litters) that isvery variable in both pattern and color (not unlike other dominant/codominant genes such as Swedish jungles).

"And I will say it again: It is one morph/genetic mutation that is inherited dominantly (proven in multiple litters) that isvery variable in both pattern and color (not unlike other dominant/codominant genes such as Swedish jungles)."

Well, thanks. I am no longer interested.I don't know why you are doing things this way, but it ruined it for me(not that you care). I would think that with so many breedings, one would have been done to a normal nic to see if you have something.What you have proven with your multiple litters is that different localities add something different to the "morph". Color and pattern vary because you haven't done anything to single out your project morph. The pattern of Cancun boas pass to their offspring, and some look like aztec. Hypo x Hog islands pass on their color and their ability to change color to their offspring. Many Nicaraguans have tail stripes, in fact I would guess there are more with a few connecting saddles than there are without. What you have done is combine the traits of all of these AND El Salvadorans, and muddied things up and removed so much from your founding project.
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Davey Giltner

Yeah really...... I don't see how these boas can be classified as any sort of mutation.... they are all within the normal range of variability for nic bci... a litter like this isnt consistent with the broad expression of a co-dominant trait .. they really need to be proven before they can be tagged with a morph name
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

Sorry but I agree with everyone here, every year you have a new morph and then we never see them again, just like the "Blue Moons"
a few years back....
Produce a super, thats the ONLY way you can call something co-dom.
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You are what you repeated to do, excelence is not an act, but a habit......... (Aristole)

The "Mayan" traits are much like Swedish jungles and appear even in outbred litters: extremely light eyes that are sometimes amber or orange in hypomels (some having only the pupil being dark pigmented), clean patterns through very speckled backgrounds with the speckled side-sripe forming, aberrancies (from being "Aztec-like," jungly zig-zagging, any degree of dorsal striping), a somewhat hypomelanistic quality (even on the highly speckled), a cleaner belly than normal littermates, etc. Just as with Swedish jungles there are some falling into the category of "normal pattern" and some within the range of "normal color," and just as with Swedish jungles those "possible low expression" animals would require being bred to prove out. The various colors and patterns can be seen in every litter, both inbred and outbred, no matter what locale is in the mix (although you can tell locale is an influence). It works th same as with Swedish jungles (which have also ow been bred into C. Am., multiple locales of "Colombian," Suriname, Argentine, etc.; wherein although locales used affect color and pattern to some degree....are you saying it's impossible to identify Suriname or Argentine cross Swedish jungles from the "normal" littermates???? Because that is, in effect, what you(plural; all of those responding) stated above. You want crystal clear results from absolutely pure locale from myself, yet look at the world quickly being populated by Roswells and Aztecs from mixed locales/intergrades or of at best "unknown" heredity....there's still some people who believe leopards aren't descended from "Sonoran desert boas." Just how do you explain multiple phenotypes of supers in Aztecs, since to be an investment worthy morph it must be fully explained, absolutely pure locale, etc????
I have still not bred "Blue Moon" line to "Blue Moon" line yet (the last time I did was several years ago and lost bred females due to electrical problems, and have since opted to put those genetics into morph projects to try for interesting color), but will be trying for BM X BM, BM-Hypomel X BM-Mayan and BM X BM-Mayans next year. I think I will produce some outstanding colors and patterns, even if the BM does not produce something new. BM does throw ontogenetic hypoerythrism as well as speckling that sometimes mimics IMG's (only with purple/blue color moreso than black) and seems possibly codom' to me. I have not identified a "super" in Mayans and think it likely simple dominant...the possible supers from 2010 were not produced in numbers indicating them to be recessive or supers last year or this year. I didn't do a couple of litters and come to these conclusions (like I've saw others do...I remember seeing big name reptile distributors selling "hypomelanistic Argentines," and "het hypomelanistic Colombians" a few years ago.

"I remember seeing big name reptile distributors selling "hypomelanistic Argentines," and "het hypomelanistic Colombians" a few years ago"

The difference being that they had an actual morph that was heritable and proven. It was later that they realized it was potentially a T-positive albino, but it was still a heritable proven trait.

OK, back to your jungly, aztecy, arabesqie, T positive like, double het blizzard somethings. You say they are variable like Jungles. That's cool. I think in general we all see the traits associated with jungles in jungles. Some are high expression, some low. How about this then.
You call some Aztecy. Please post a picture of one you think is like an aztec. I see ones that have aberrant patterns. That's cool. Lots of boas do. I have CA boas with tail stripes and chain link patterns, but they are not a morph. Its variation of a normal (and they are pure bloodlines). I believe that you have an aberrant line of boas. Thats neat, but thats how you should have marketed these from the start. Not Mayan, Aztecy, Jungly, etc. They are aberrant, and sadly mutts. Have fun with them. I doubt you will get the big bucks that you have been asking on the classifieds over the years, simply because in my opinion you destroyed your own project by crossing anything you could find with anything else. Then started blowing off about all these new morphs. You killed it.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I have always said I believed it to be "one morph that is variable"...(that makes it way harder to easily prove out as compared to less variable morphs/even Swedish jungle breeders have trouble identifying low-expression animals after years of breeding them!)...it is others who keep trying to get me to say otherwise. If your C. Am. "chain-links(oops! there's an ordinary everyday description of your "morph" that is unscientific...we can't have that!)" when bred to anything, produce "chainlinks" in the F-1's then why do you assume it is not a dominant gene? Particularly if around 50% of each of those outbred litters have color/pattern aberrancies? Particularly if those offspring having "chainlinks" do the same thing when they are bred? It's not just pattern; it's not just body color...how many of your aberrant pure C. Am. also have reduced belly pattern, abnormal eye color, etc.,? Nobody answered my questions....how can you tell that Roswells and Aztecs are "morphs" if crossing locales makes this impossible, and if you can't say they don't have C. Am. (that apparently can have ANY pattern and be "normal"in them?????

See post below....and also: I never expected to prove out something new in the original breedings, but since I kept getting morph-type results, I used what I had to prove it out. Next year if they're here I may use a Nic on the Nic females, but that's still not going to satisfy people who don't want to be satisfied, because I can't absolutely prove the purity of the original females. I know from my breedings what results I will get (dominant gene), and the locales I used were to put color, pattern, and morphs in the mix....why prefer to raise more drab pure-bred animals when you can raise real eye-catchers? To me, that would be working backwards at this point. Had I used only Nic's in the first breeding I'm sure there'd still be people saying that I can't prove what the locales were; they'd still be saying "it's just normal range of C. Am." There are some people who just refuse to accept another person's results.

what dr. booth and other have asked repeatedly, to post clear pics labeled with your descriptive names, and concise descriptions of the history of the animals used to produce them, people might be more willing to accept what you say. But you refuse to do so. Instead you demand that everyone just accept what you say at face value. Why dont you provide what has been askes instead of just taking up space on the board and wasting everyone's time by arguing.

I posted an explanation, then was told it was too long and confusing to follow. I posted pics that show various pattern anomalies and color variations, including one "visibly T-positive albino" and was told these are all "normal." I would be wasting my time to present any more information to people who have made their minds up without having considered what I have presented in the past. Unless someone has something useful and courteous to add to this thread, I think I'm done with it

Don't present more information then. Present the same information in a saw that can be seen.

Example:

Picture 1)
2009 T mimic produced by breeding dh pewter male to mayan female

Picture 2)
2010 Blue moon myan produced by breeding a mayan male to a sunset female

Picture 3)
2011 Aztec-like dilute priduced by breeding male from picture 1 to an cancun.

You can't just throw out 40 descriptions, and 5 pictures and have people try to match them up!
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Davey Giltner

I presented a fair number of pictures and links to pictures in the past and was told they are all normals...it's a waste of my time to present more info' on THIS forum. Email me: reptixotic@yahoo.com

What is the nature of inheritance of your "visibly T-positive albino". Have you proven it recessive? If so, across how many breedings? Have you breed the "visibly T-positive albino" to a normal, produce "hets" then bred these back to each other and to the "visibly T-positive albino"?

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

It is a 2010, and has a complete unreduced (as with hypomelanistics) pattern, and there is zero visible black (where black would normally be there is purplish-chocolatey color. Although it has a kinked tail, I plan to keep and try to breed this one in the future just to see the results...I have no doubt, however, that it is simply a variation of the Mayan morph (being both very hypomel and hypoerythristic, whereas most are a little more of one or the other or both). It is not hypomel' in the classic cdom' sense, but I refer to the reduction of black (I think most of what you see are precursors to melanin that are themselves visibly black) you see in Mayans, and Swedish jungles.

Nicaraguan hypos do not show a reduction in pattern, at least the ones that I have produced and the majority that I have seen. If there is a reduction in pattern, as observed in the Salmon boas, this is minimal. Additionally, is there not hog island genes in your boas? Hog Islands, by many, are considered hypomelanistic. This may not be inherited as a simple hypo incomplete dominant trait, however it is a naturally evolved light boa. Could this not be responsible, in addition to other things, for the light boa?

Additionally, Schneller reptiles have a line similar to a jungle that they have titled "ginger". When paired with a hypo trait this removes any black pigment and replaces it with purple. The trait is similar to many aberrant boas, but has not been proven incomplete dominant. I have a female pastel gravid from a "ginger" orange tail this year, in order to test the inheritance of this trait. What you will notice however, is that it is described as an aberrant boa, not a jungly, aztecy, arabesque-like boa.

Prove inheritance, document accurately and concisely, and photograph. Then come back and tell us all about it.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Yes, SOME of the Mayans have Hog Island in them. I would like to see examples of anyone elses Hog crosses throwing T-positive appearing offspring. I realize selective breeding can do alot, but the "zero visible black" offspring I referred to is out of inbreeding two 1/4th Hog & 50% Nicaraguan parents together; I also got very similar results from line-breeding the same sire to his Nic' mother (making those 75% Nic' & 1/8th Hog). The primary difference in the light ones are that those having more Hog percentage are a bit cleaner patterned and colors more vibrant. I have not bred Nic' males to the presumed to be pure Nic' Mayan females, but the litter from the Nic' X Cancun (not a hypo') male to Nic' Mayan female produced the same aberrant patterns that were expected as well as light colored and hypoerythristic offspring....while much more drab than the Hog crosses, it was the same patterns and degree of darkness or lightness. I do not know the lineage of the Blue Moon line, but same when bred to the Nic' Mayan...I got the same pattern aberrancies and dark to light range, etc. Of course BM's become hypoerythristic as they mature and develop freckling of bright colors and blue-black, so there's that in the mix. I guess part of what I'm saying is that even if you use any locale or any other morph in the mix, you still get the pattern aberrancies and variations in pigment levels. Had I used Bluefield's Nic and Stone line dark Nic' there would still be MUCH variation in those "pure Nic'" litters only partly accounting for color/pattern variations, but there would still be the added color/pattern variations produced by the Mayan genetics.

I don't even know where to start with this post. Again....PICTURES. Its amazing how they along with a good concise definition can tell a lot. But hey, who am I to comment.

Good luck with you snakes.

Warren
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Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I call B-U-L-L-S-H-I- ***** !!! now all of a sudden you are done with it... after a series of run on sentences and babbling, when you are asked to post a pic to back up your statements ... all of a sudden youre done with it..... DO you even have any of these boas you speak of.... really???
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

posts have been added to this thread, you simply cannot accept the help and suggestions being offered. noone has made up their mind, because noone can follow your long run on paragraphs full of name dropping comparisons that have no clearly labeled clean comparison photos to go along with them. people are bending over backwards to be helpful. more so here than other forums ive seen. if you have so much belief in what you say you have, why try to dump the project? is it easier for you to try to find a sucker to take your babbling explanations at face value and get what you can out of it, instead of putting in a little time and effort, to show so many reputable and experienced breeders on here that try to help you, what you really have going on?

You say all this stuff about your breeding results... yet We have NEVER seen any of it..... You cant just go around inventing morphs without doing the legwork to prove them..... Boas are variable...... This year 50% of my Surinames came out with extra long tails with white spots on the 1st and second tail band..... SO by your mentality I should call them Polk-Dot mega tail Surinames....... Two of them have some connected saddles in the center... should I call those Jungly Suris????

Sure parents pass on traits to offspring... but 99% of the time its just plain old polygenicity....

Definition of Polygenic traits = Polygenic traits do not follow Mendel's patterns of inheritance.
They are recognized by their expressions that result from gradation of continuous variation.
Additive effects of two or more separate pair of genes control continuous variation.
The traits are quantified by measuring the variation, rather than counting.
The phenotypic expression vary in wider range as a result of contributing pairs of genes.
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

For longest thread? It's never ending.....

Here we go again.....Geesh! Another new morph.....really?
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Regards,
Buddy

I think there may be alot of new morphs yet to be "discovered" that have been here all along, that people have failed to recognize, or have in effect lost due to boa people's obssessions with outbreeding, etc. I wonder just how many yellowbelly, mojave, vanilla, spot-nose, Congo, orange dream, and paint BP's were sold for $10.00 extra through pet shops as "A grade normals" before someone thought to breed them to find out??? Heck, isn't that about what went on with Roswells, and the first Aztec???

And, I just want to say that I love the Aztec and Roswell morphs(and Swedish jungle), and am not in any way putting them down. In my references (multiple times in this thread) above, I only seek to point out the illogical argument and hypocrisy of that argument, as to why "Mayans" aren't a morph.

You are making everyones point. You have proven nothing. Maybe you dont know any better, but I doubt that because almost everyone on K-Snake has offered you enough info that it would be near impossible not to understand. Quit guessing , and prove it out since you are so sure. I really cant believe that u dont get it !!

I don't understand why you don't get it...it is proven through multiple litters, whether people purposely choose to disbelieve, or not.

That is incorrect. You have to prove it by breeding to an unrelated line to prove anything. Good luck trying to sell a new morph that hasnt been proven. Every time you post several people waste their time with you (including me now). I didnt see see, motleys, jungles,arabesque, VPI , BW Caramels......... make any claims to being a proven morph until they were bred into unrelated stock. Where is the disconnect ???????????

Not hardly.. Roswells are a product of a BCC x BCI breeding..... didnt just show up in a pet store one day
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Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

Something I've noticed that now other readers of this forum have started pointing out to me, is that when people in foreign countries post pics of possible new morphs they are not generally besieged with accusations of bilking buyers out of large sums of money for what are "non morphs," etc. Does the number of miles closer to some people make your "morphs" less likely to be morphs? Why ever would that be?

Yes, virtually every time I post, there's someone new who contacts me to tell me that they no longer frequent this site's boa forum because of the treatment of people who are not in the clique.

I am not in any clique, and just yesterday was quite interested in your animals. You tell people what you aren't going to do (because it would be going backwards), and why you believe what you believe. If it is going backwards, it is to go back an do a step you missed.

I said before that you don't have to know the exact background of your founding animal. You also don't have to know the background of a potential mate for her. What I would do though, is breed an animal that you think most likely matches her origins. If you think she is nic, breed her to a nic. Then, breed their babies to nics.You are using a gallery of photos to promote a morph, and each litter looks different from the next because you chose to do really odd crosses. Odd crosses are fine, but you didn't prove the morph out before adding other genetics to the mix. A hypo litter very clearly has hypos that are hypos, and normals that are not. Same with Motleys, Jungles, Arabesques and Aztecs. Colors may vary, but not to the extreme you are getting by mixing so many localities in.

Here is the problem I have...
Lets say I buy a single Mayan from you because you have a litter of 20 and only one has a chainlink pattern, blue color, and tail stripe I like. So I wait for next year's litter to buy a mate for her. How do I know one will look like her? What if I buy 2 Mayans with totally different phenotypes? What will their babies look like? How will I know which are "T mimics, aztec-like, smokes, blue moons" and how do I market them?

If I buy a motley it produces motleys that look like the motley.
If I buy an arabesque it produces arabesques that look like arabesque

If I buy a Mayan, I may get animals that look like the parents, but they could be 5 different colors, and 10 different patterns, and apparently that is before you factor in any of the natural color variations associated with the crosses you have done previously that may not be presented in this generation, but could show up later.
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Davey Giltner

Fair enough! If you email me directly I will send you pics of parents of litters and the results and let you see for yourself. Blue Moons are a completely unrelated line, by the way. From the limited numbers of litters I've had, it looks like you are likely to get the full range of both pattern and color in your litters (influenced by locales used) no matter if your breeders are low expression, or high expression, or if there's one or two Mayan parents. I've only got the extremely light colored ones in Mayan to Mayan litters, but I think that's just been the luck of it so far---I'm not seeing that there's a visible "super." I've thus far got litters with more striping from breeding heavier striped animals together; and the lighter colored tend to throw more lighter colored ones per litter. (The same reason everyone prefers breeding high-colored/high-patterned Swedish jungles together, is it not?) I think the fact that they are wildly unpredictable in color and pattern is a good thing....not so easy to mass produce a particular look/morph, and you get something for every taste in every litter. It's very exciting to see just what crops out each and every time (like breeding GTP morphs). And, again, I think the true value in this morph will not be appreciated until we see blood combos and Colombian T-positive combos (that likely retain the juvenile color into adulthood; at least in the lighter ones).
reptixotic@yahoo.com

The Boy Who Cried Wolf. You should definitely read (or reread) that story. It might help to explain the skepticism you're facing on this forum.

This forum sees you as that boy because you've yet to logically and concisely comply with any reasonable request asked of you. Quite simply, you haven't shown us the wolf.

The "wolf" we're asking for is a picture example of each of the highlighted names (this is one of your posts found here: http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1858636,1858636&key=2010)

Notice something about the post above. It's LOOONG. And it's ONE paragraph. Do you have any idea how hard it is for someone to read a paragraph that long and comprehend much of anything - even if they understand what they're reading? Now, think about how hard it is to comprehend for someone who is being exposed to it for the first time! And you can't understand why there's confusion?

That post claims that your boas reproduce looks just like the most popular (and often rare) pattern mutations in the business. It claims that your line throws every color in the rainbow! The only thing it doesn't claim is to be THE GENETIC KEY to the natural diversity found all throughout Central America... no... wait... it DOES claim that. But, maybe you think that because almost every locality in CA is somewhere amongst the history.

There are roughly 100 "name drops" (those known to the community plus those you have used to name your “morphs”) and descriptions that I highlighted in that post alone. There are others in different posts like this one http://forums.kingsnake.com/viewarch.php?id=1902583,1903873&key=2011 and some examples are:
gray-brown, chocolatey ghost, ontogenetic hypoerythrism, an overall gray/amber/honey/yellow wash (not unlike "coraling" in coral albinos), grays/blue-grays, deep inky blacks, "IMG-type", type-2 anery, etc..

You've heard the saying that "a picture is worth a thousand words", right? Why not save yourself from thinking of every aberrant trait you can and simply post pictures of what you're talking about? We just want to see pictures to validate these 100-ish claims. Just do something like this:

This is a Blue Moon. It is the __________ (founder animal/by product of breeding _____ x ______/etc):
…post picture here…

This is a Chocolate Dilute. It is the __________ (founder animal/by product of breeding _____ x ______/etc):
…post picture here…

This is a …. Etc…

Don’t describe what YOU see. Let the VIEWER determine that.

I believe I remember reading that you didn’t take pictures of much of what you’ve produced. When claiming to have something (like perhaps a wolf), you either need to be able to show it or at least prove its existence with a picture. If you want mass buy-in of your projects, you’re going to need to show consumers what they’re getting. And since you don’t have pictures of many of these, it’s time to fire up the breeding room… and then the camera shortly after that. So, you can kill two birds with one stone. You can prove what you’re claiming while you also figure out the method of inheritance, if any.

This might also put to rest your back and forth claims of multiple mutations vs just one. You’ve GOT to nail this down before expecting anyone to drop any kind of money on the project.

Speaking of money and sales…

>>Something I've noticed that now other readers of this forum have started pointing out to me, is that when people in foreign countries post pics of possible new morphs they are not generally besieged with accusations of bilking buyers out of large sums of money for what are "non morphs," etc. Does the number of miles closer to some people make your "morphs" less likely to be morphs? Why ever would that be?

No, that's because you're selling your boas in the classifieds at the same time that you're marketing them here. The others are not.

I’ve done my best (a couple of times now) to help you by pointing out exactly WHAT WE SEE when we read your posts. We see lots of name dropping, lots of incoherent run-on sentences and paragraphs, lots of dodging reasonable requests, and very little proof that would lead any of us to jump on board with what you’re claiming.

I think that you’ve done so much damage to your project that if there is something there, it’ll never reap the rewards that you would have deserved. The only way to salvage anything at this point is to either put together a “family tree” of sorts, or go back and start breeding from scratch and document the journey. IMO, anything short of that means a project devoid of any success and likely, LOTS of frustration for you.

Good luck,
jb
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What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

When putting together the history of your project, it would be REALLY REALLY REALLY helpful to have the info broken down by year. I say this because I know you've mentioned multiple litters in this project so detailing them year by year (along with pictures) would be HUGELY helpful.

This in conjunction with a dedicated photo album (I've used picturetrail in the past for something similar) could put an end to all of the negativity surrounding your project once and for all.

If you'd take the time to make a post like:

Here's the history of the ___________ project:

2000: Bred _____ x _____ (litter A)
- picturetrail.com link to specific album containing pics of parents and the litter

2001: Repeated litter A (litter A'01)
- picturetrail.com link to specific album containing pics of parents and the litter

2002: Bred male (fill in the morph blank) from litter A x _____ (litter B)
- picturetrail.com link to specific album containing pics of parents and the litter

2003: Bred .... etc...
- picturetrail.com link to specific album containing pics of parents and the litter

There is room for a VERY short description of the album on the main page and quite a bit of room above and under each picture for a longer description. Mine was VERY simplistic, but here it is: http://www.picturetrail.com/roseinc2008

If you’re looking for more flexibility a photo host like photobucket would be a good choice because you can have "sub-albums". Using the sub-albums you could arrange it any number of ways. Here's an example:

•Main Album
>>2001
>>>>Litter A
>>>>>>dam album
>>>>>>sire album
>>>>>>babies album
>>>>Litter B
>>>>>>dam album
>>>>>>sire album
>>>>>>babies album
>>>>Etc.
>>2002
>>>>Litter C
>>>>>>dam album
>>>>>>sire album
>>>>>>babies album
>>>>Etc…
>>2003
etc...
etc...
etc...

The important thing would be to get it FULLY organized before you start sharing it because if you later change which pictures are in which albums or move the albums around, any links you created (on this forum for instance) will no longer work.

You'll also want to be sure you have links from the parent of a particular litter back to the litter that parent was born in - if applicable. That way, all of the pieces of the puzzle can be put together by a visitor to your album.

Honestly, I think that some sort of permanent, logical “family tree” is the absolute BEST thing you could do for your project right now. Something permanent (since any posts you make here are archived and have to be "searched" for which makes the link change), customizable, simple and well laid out, etc. It's also easy to link to in case someone has a question. That way you don't have to waste time repeating yourself.

Perhaps the best part is that it's EVERYTHING people have asked for from you. If you could put this together (or SOMETHING that details the lineage in it's entirety) it would allow people to stop hammering you for the ways you've approached this and get on board with your project. Doesn’t that sound better than constantly being barraged with questions and doubts?

The other option would be to just continue to make posts here in the manner you do and make absolutely ZERO progress and likely NEVER have your project gain acceptance. It's up to you.

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Nice Post Jb, I find your post very helpful.

"DeHart" I have no ill will towards you or your Boa projects !

The original poster "DeHart" should review this post you've made Jb (review it several times)
and start working on a plan to move in the direction you've
pointed and pointed out out rather concisely.

I can not even wade through one of "DeHart's" explanation posts it almost kills me to even try.

It comes across as many scattered thoughts all written with nearly zero punctuation, very difficult.

Very difficult for me to read or comprehend.

I actually have great compassion for this man "DeHart", I feel bad for him.

I actually wince when I see his posts and feel really badly for him.

If he's willing to take just a fraction of the time spent on this forum discussing his Boa project.
(trying to convince people he has a New Morph)

As others before me have suggested;

If he would take just a fraction of this time and post clear concise descriptive 1 sentence statements
followed with an Image (1 picture) of the Boa ( Morph type) the sentence describes.

This is the only way to help other people understand exactly
what "Dehart" is trying to convey with his Boa projects.

Good Luck "DeHart" I honestly have no ill will towards you !

. . . Lar M
-----
Boas By Klevitz

I Support USark.org

In that case I recommend three things. Either:

1) Stop posting on this forum as you are likely to drive millions of visitors away due to the confusion that is created in the posts, which in turns results in people questioning you.

2) accurately and concisely describe your morph(s) with pictures and one sentence explanations.

or

3) Ask your supporters to come online and post their honest opinions of whats going on with your snakes. Get your "buyers" to tell us all about their successes.

Either way, the herp community on this forum with benefit.

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Give an example, and I believe that most people on K-snake are pretty knowledgeable. Sometimes you need to look in the mirror and ask yourself "Is it me ?"

Your posts are always very entertaining.
-----
Richard Ceniceros

If one scrolls down through the thread you will find that some people have chimed in on this who have not looked at the pics or followed links to pics that I have provided in the past. I have explained that it is "one morph" having variable color and pattern (not unlike Swedish jungles, and heck even motleys, arabesques, etc., can vary quite a bit), but some people insist on referring to "multiple morphs" or "multiple phenotypes," which in my mind further confuses people and is leading people in a wrong direction. I have provided pics, and links to pics that clearly show what I'm describing although not everything is labelled with a "phenotype name"....because, one more time, it is a single dominantly inherited morph that is quite variable in appearance (not tremendously unlike the Swedish jungles). In pics I've provided there are clearly aberrant boas, both in color and pattern, that have proven to pass on these aberrancies in a dominant predictable manner (though still quite variabl...not alot different than as with Swedish jungles). Some of these pics clearly show extremely light (lighter than pure Hog Islands) colored and in one case "visibly T-positive albino(lacks ALL visible black)" and yet some people say they are normal. I started out presenting what I knew from what breedings I had done in a kind of public forum sort of way, and was criticized for spelling, grammar, run-on sentences, etc. I'm not presenting a scientific paper for peer review...I'm just telling you what happened; get over it. Any normal average person reading this thread will likely be turned off by it (several private messages from people over the last several months have told me they will never post on this site again after having received this kind of treatment in the past). I'm not asking for your approval, just telling you what happened in my breedings. You've proven repeatedly that I am wasting my time trying to explain or present pictures. People can email me directly if they want to honestly inquire with legitimate interest. And, I am not "dumping" the project. My wife is currently pregnant, and I will be the daytime primary care-giver, and that will cut into my available reptile time quite a bit. I have holdbacks from Blue Moon, BM X Mayan, Poss het plasma Mayan, poss het T-positive Snow Mayan, Argentine Albino X El Salvador het pewer breeding, Black Peruvian Project, Raptor-like" Nic' Project, a few BPS, and I also breed chihuahuas and may get a female to pair with my weird coolored iguana this Fall..............definitely NOT "dumping," but reducing, refining, giving someone else a chance...
And, as for those who think I'm asking too much money...I've always priced mine to be competitive with very similar (if not the exact same) European Morph(s).

How can you expect people to think you have a single mutation when you've given the same thing, multiple names?

With pattern aberrancies, it's HIGHLY accepted that there will be a drastic variety in appearances. Rather than try and explain each one individually with varying references to existing genes and creating new names yourself, how about just call them all Blue Moon's? Or is it Mayan? No wait... smoke hypo? Smoke Mayan? Blue Smoke? Crack smoker? Whatever.

Pin down ONE NAME. Label ALL OF THEM by the same name. And STOP with the confusing "name dropping". We'll UNDERSTAND that it's a highly variable gene (to quote you: "not unlike the jungle gene". I promise!

YOU have created this confusion with posts like this:

It's us who are asking for clarification because we want to make some sense of it.

So, what's the final name? Blue Moon? Mayan? Smoke Mayan? Hyper/hypo Blue Mayan?

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Well said Jon,
My issue here is that for the last X number of years I have seen these listed under multiple names. So now, it is simply a highly variable single gene morph, that is unproven.......

From now on, lets simply refer to it as a Mayan. Not an Aztecy, Jungly, Arabesue, Motleyesqu, blah blah blah. Its a boa with a very muddy lineage and variability in color and pattern. Right???

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I have NEVER said that "Blue Moon" and "Mayan" are the same thing....if you have an understanding of the English language at all, you will see when reading my posts that I always referred to them separately to indicate this (and you are now complaining about that!). What I did say is that because the appearance in Mayan line boas that are very hypoerythristic ( the one's I call "smokes" for obvious reasons) is very similar to the original "Blue Moon" (except he was more blue n color), I decided to breed the lines together to see what I got. I had thought it possible that it was along the lines of "blue dilute/chocolate dilute/silver dilute" strains in other animals, but seems not to be from two litters thus far----possibly still two mutations that can have somewhat similar "hets." 'Hoping to prove the Blue Moon line out next season. I'm not speaking a foreign language---seems like you're going out of your way now to complain about things.

Mayan being dominant (I still do not think there's a super from my breeding results) BM X Mayan would actually be dominant morph and "het" should the Blue Moons" prove out (not both "hets"; it was an error in the above post).

SO you are breeding these two "morphs" together before you have even proven that they actually are indeed heritable traits...... that makes no sense......

You do realize that there will never be any credibility associated with these projects right???
-----
Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

Without talking about any other pictures or any other labels, and talking about ONLY the animals in the topic of this thread...

This female Nicaraguan:

and this Hog Island x Colombian x Possible Nic:
Mutation

Created these:

And the case you are making is for a dominant gene?
Two animals, not only within the spectrum of normal pattern and coloration for what they are (even if they had no Mayan influence) but basically right smack dab in the middle of normalcy...two seemingly normal snakes...produce the babies in the last picture, and you are sticking with dominant?
-----
Davey Giltner

Yes, dominant, both are low-expression on pattern (but both have color indicating the gene is there) with the mother having only slight connectivity of dorsal pattern on the neck, and sire having slight reverse-stripe on the posterior (and dorsal aberrancy of "peaks". Have you never saw wildly aberrant babies out of low-expression Swedish jungles?

No, I have never seen wildly expressive animals out of low expressive animals in Swedish Jungles. Those animals that have the aberrancies tend to produce them. Those that have jungle color but not so much in the aberrant departmenthave jungle colored babies. Those that are labeled as "possible jungles" tend to have "possible jungle" litters.
The mother is labeled only as Nicaraquan, and yet now you are calling her low expression. Is she carrying the Mayan gene or not?

If she is unrelated, but "both have color indicating the gene is there", then you can see the Mayan gene in animals that are unrealted to Mayans? That would be a huge advantage over jungles for sure! Which color indicates that the gene is there? I will look for it in my snakes. Both animals in that post are different colors. Mayans are highly variable, so ANY color indicates that the gene is present? Cha Ching!!

If she is related, but you haven't done any Nic to Nic breedings, what is she?
-----
Davey Giltner

While I agree that on average, the low expression Swedish jungles bred together produce mostly lower expression, it is not always the case otherwise Swedish jungles would be one of the "cookie cutter" morphs and nobody would have to sell "possibles." My experience (limited though it may be) is that in Mayans you are more likely to get a greater number of the better striped ones when breeder the heavier striped adults, especially in inbred/line-bred litters. That female is a Mayan Nicaraguan; she was first bred to the Stone line Nic X Cancun producing semi-stripes, circle-backs and a chain-link patterned offspring (that one was born dead, but I have pics) many of which having unusual color. Some were pretty light going towards hypomelanism, but gray instead of high colored, as most from that litter looked degrees of hypoerythristic. Yes, a large part of that was due to their being 1/4th Cancun. I had originally thought the lightness must have been from the sire being a low expression hypo-Cancun, but Mr. Stone conveyed it was a "normal" Cancun (though still accounting for some lightness) used to make him, and also a "normal" Nicaraguan as far as hypomelanism. Oddly, this litter did not produce babies looking particularly resembling Aztecs; those appeared in the original het sunset cross and subsequent inbreeding/line-breeding from this line, and also in the Blue Moon X Mayan Nic litter (mother was the other original Mayan Nic' mother of the het sunset sired litter). The female Nic pictured above is thought to be sister to the other Nic Mayan (bought from same source, same age, same genetic description, similar high-color not typical of most Nicaraguans) making this breeding (Smoke/hypoerythristic sired) likely to have been a nephew to aunt breeding. So, I think related...also all 6 babies have the hypoery' and aberrant traits to some degree. Even in tiny litters chances are you would get more "normals." It is not "identical" to Swedish jungles in effect...usually a few of each litter are stand-outs with more extreme color variation and pattern aberrancy than you would expect from Swedish jungles.

...chances are you'd get more normals in tiny litters with only one Mayan parent, but not necessarily...

Here is one: Photo taken from EBN website:

Could you get a picture of one of yours that looks like an aztec for us all?

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

OH... so now we have another trait..... small litter size???? LOL
-----
Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

Let this guy think he has something... As he thinks he does. Lol.
-----
Richard Ceniceros

Do me a favor, send this:

to anyone who claims to have a mastery of the English language and ask for some feedback. Then, post that feedback publicly.

I've said it... Oh.. I dunno... half a dozen times in the last 48 hours and countless times before that (along with everyone else).. that YOUR POSTS are BEYOND confusing. They're almost entirely incomprehensible because YOU don't have a grasp of how to write properly for an audience.

NO ONE READING YOUR POSTS CAN MAKE ANY SENSE OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

I'm shocked that you're surprised that there is confusion around what was once, multiple mutations, then one, and is now multiple mutations again.

If you wish to present to us two different mutations, perhaps a second paragraph is needed. That is after all, what PARAGRAPHS are for. They're for presenting an UNRELATED idea.

Dude... take some of the feedback given to you or just disappear like smoke. Or... a blue smoke if you prefer. Or... a smoke Mayan if that makes more sense. Or a Blue Moon x Smoke Mayan.

At some point, you have to think to yourself "wow, EVERYONE is telling me the same thing - MAYBE they're on to something?"

jb
-----
What's written above is purely my opinion. In fact, MOST of what you read on the internet is someone's opinion. Don't take it too seriously

Jonathan Brady
DeviantConstrictors.com Site received a complete makeover! Check it out!

Lol...
-----
Richard Ceniceros

Where in my last post did I say your Blue Moon and Mayan were the same thing. I am referring to the snakes you have started this post over. The title says Mayan, right???

Therefore, I am suggesting you stop using chocolate dilute, smoke something, hypoerythristic, etc, and simply refer to them as Mayan. Mayan, being a trait expressing both color and pattern variability. How does that sound. Now, when you post pictures of litters, we can all sit back and say, wow, that Mayan line sure does what it says on the tin, i.e. produces snakes that have color and pattern variation.

I am honestly lost by what each of your lines are, because now you have Blue moon like Mayans, or smoke like Mayans, or blue moon like smoke, or whatever. How about just two lines that you do not understand the variability of. ?????

By the way, it is obvious that my grasp of the English language and ability to construct a sentence is far superior to yours. So less of the anal retention.

Accept that you have confused the hell out of 99.99% of the people that have read your posts. If you sat back and did what people suggested, then maybe we could all enjoy your variable snakes.

How about this. How about taking a nice picture of each of your animals that have gone into creating these lines. With those pictures state what local crosses they are, and what characteristics they possess that you believe are heritable. Not, jungly, motley, etc. Simply aberrant pattern and/or color variation.

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

You have still not even provided a convincing argument that "Blue Moons" are a proven morph..... so one thing at a time... now you're referring to them like they are an accepted morph....
-----
Marc Duhon
Lafayette, Louisiana
SURINAMBOAS.COM
kaiyudsai@SURINAMBOAS.COM

It, Blue Moon morph, is not "proven." All I can say right now is that I'm getting what I think could be visible hets, because the ontogenetic color change seems possibly codominant...could be polygenic from locals involved, etc. I don't recall saying it's "proven," if I did it was unintentional. I do think it has a good chance of proving out.

Again, on the subject of "multiple morphs"....I said some looked similar to other known morphs; I did that with the intent of not having to go into even greater detail and lengthier description. If people on a "boa forum" do not know what may look similar to a Swedish jungle, Aztec, or(insert common morph here), then it would do no good most likely to go into greater detail or provide more pics. I think I always described "Mayans" as one morph that were variable, except when I stated last year's breeding results "could" indicate the stripe gene being separate from the color morph. I think I also said that I thought it most likely a single dominant or codominant gene. Other people keep referring to "multiple morphs" which I never said.

The previous time I posted, I was told to post pics of parents and litter pics, so I did. I cannot see where it is helping anyone for me to continue wasting my time doing this when you try hard to figure out every possible loop-hole (I realize that you need to exhaust possible alternatives)instead of really thinking about what I'm telling you----they occur in inbred and outbred litters so long as one parent shows the jungle-type traits; low-expression or high expression can throw the spectrum...it's inherited dominantly.

"If people on a "boa forum" do not know what may look similar to a Swedish jungle, Aztec, or(insert common morph here), then it would do no good most likely to go into greater detail or provide more pics."

I think the problem is that, while we are reading about them in your description, we aren't seeing the ones that look like Swedish jungles or Aztecs in the pictures. I have seen some chain patterned and stripes. They are very pretty. What I have not seen is a long winded paragraph that describes what you are seeing as well as the picture of the 4 live babies in this thread. If you could (as suggested) post one that looks like an aztec, and say "This is one that I think looks like an aztec", and we could see it too, that would go a long way to helping you out.

You called the animals Mayans in sticking with the CA/SA Indian Theme. You thought they Looked like Aztecs, and Inca was taken. I get that. Show me the one that started it that looks like an Aztec, and the babies that look like her, please.
-----
Davey Giltner

So, a few years ago, I bred this Colombian cross El Salvador smoke phase unusual boa to an hypermelanistic grantie smoke, partial gold blush, under expressed copper phase with minimial tail stripe El Salvador x Nicaraguan. In the litter I have Mayan-Blue smokes tail stripes, Mayan-hypoerythristic, gold blush, and Mayan-hypoerythristic copper blush snakes. Here they are:

As you can see, if you squint yours eyes, unfocus slightly, and stand 15 feet from the monitor, which will have its resolution turned down low, are Aztec-like, Raptoresque, Genetic stripe line, partial expression smoke phase, over expressed hypererythristic, ontogenic T positive albinos, boawomanlike caramels.

In plan to bred these to Argentine cross Nicaraguan, Costa Rican cross hogs, and Sonoran cross Colombians in the coming years to locate the exact location on chromosome 13 that I believe this, and my other skyline-phase sunkissed boa that produces visable but highly variable hets.

What do you think? By the way, I will be releasing small numbers of these this year for $2000 a pair, but would consider letting the group go for $15,000, but you would have to pay shipping. If you take the entire group, I will write down every name I have thought of in the last 15 years to describe my aberrant mixed locality snakes, sorry, I mean, Mayan-like, Skyline phase sunkissed, hypoerythristic, aztec-like, Swedish Jungle phase like, normals, sorry, not normals, hyper variables poss het blood, visable ontogentic T positives.

Just think of the incredible morphs these will produce when crossed into bloods, T positive Colombians, Argentine boas, Brazilian rainbows, and even corn snakes. Wow, this is a ground floor project..................
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Sorry, I got carried away with punctuation and grammar. That should read more like this:

So a few years ago I bred this Colombian cross El Salvador smoke phase unusual boa to an hypermelanistic grantie smoke, partial gold blush, under expressed copper phase with minimial tail stripe El Salvador x Nicaraguan. In the litter I have Mayan-Blue smokes tail stripes Mayan-hypoerythristic gold blush and Mayan-hypoerythristic copper blush snakes. Here they are: Search my name on photobucket.... As you can see if you squint yours eyes unfocus slightly and stand 15 feet from the monitor which will have its resolution turned down low are Aztec-like Raptoresque Genetic stripe line partial expression smoke phase over expressed hypererythristic ontogenic T positive albinos boawomanlike caramels. In plan to bred these to Argentine cross Nicaraguan Costa Rican cross hogs and Sonoran cross Colombians in the coming years to locate the exact location on chromosome 13 that I believe this and my other skyline-phase sunkissed boa that produces visable but highly variable hets. What do you think? By the way I will be releasing small numbers of these this year for $2000 a pair but would consider letting the group go for $15000 but you would have to pay shipping. If you take the entire group I will write down every name I have thought of in the last 15 years to describe my aberrant mixed locality snakes, sorry I mean Mayan-like Skyline phase sunkissed hypoerythristic aztec-like Swedish Jungle phase like normals, sorry not normals, hyper variables poss het blood visable ontogentic T positives. Just think of the incredible morphs these will produce when crossed into bloods T positive Colombians Argentine boas Brazilian rainbows and even corn snakes. Wow this is a ground floor project..................

By the way, I had a world class geneticist PM me and he said I have an amazing project that is going to be the best in the boa world. Its going to revolutionize the way we look at snakes. I see people in Europe trying to sell morphs like Raptor. Huh, whats that all about. Thats not even genetic and they don't get any kind of advise on how to post a sentence/paragraph (huh, its not a scientific report), and everyone loves there snakes and want to spend millions on them. People always post and tell me I am not posting anymore or visiting Kingsnake or keeping snakes because of the treatment I get when I introduce my anerythristic like partial albino hypomelanistic hypererythristic mayan phase skyline sinkissed ontogentic sleep phase boas of mixed locality.
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

I'm in, but I don't want to buy any of your animals. I am sure they are great representatives of what they would like like if they looked like something else, but I have a few my own that look like yours if they were looking like something else.
You see, I am not very creative when it comes to naming stuff, so I just need the verbal part of your project. You can keep the snakes, but I want the rights to gems like "Mayan-like Skyline phase sunkissed hypoerythristic aztec-like Swedish Jungle phase like normals".

You know, everyone who produces a new morph should do that. Sell rights to use the name, and not have to produce anything.
People could call their animals Aztecs and Raptors without having to buy Aztecs or Raptors. You could make money without having to produce anything, and people could use all of the lines of unrelated animals for projects. If I name my normal a raptor, and you name yours a raptor, we have unrelated raptor lines and can produce super raptors without having to inbreed!

I guess another way of marketing animals without the liability of selling something as an Aztec is to call it another Indian name, but refer to it as Aztec-like (of course, for this it would have to either look like an Aztec, or you could avoid showing pictures).
-----
Davey Giltner

I'm in. I will put together a letter, notarized this week, with all of the names I can think of. But I don;t want to sell it. I want to trade it for some of your names, so that we can unrelated but related unrelated outbred lines that are inbred only slightly.

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Excellent. Not that I don't trust you, but I would like it notarized by someone who is willing to lie and say that you didn't trade the names, and is not licensed to notarize in your home state or mine.
-----
Davey Giltner

Lol...
-----
Richard Ceniceros

See what I mean about wasting my time? People's arguments defy logic: You can breed a morph to multiple locales and just erase it from existence apparently. If something is low expression codom then that's all you're ever going to get (then where'd the mid-range and high-expression come from?). It's not okay for me to market something at above normal price yet nobody says anything about other technically not totally proven morphs (were there supers in Key Wests, Aztecs, Roswells {oh my, that's not possible to be a morph because it's an intergrade!} or for that matter has a pair of het leucistic produced leucistics in Stone's line?). I'm done answering this thread, since you cannot have a logical adult conversation.

I have never witnessed such blind defiance in my entire life ! Well maybe Obama !

The thing is, with Aztecs (of which supers have been produced, and their mode of inheritance proven after crossing a super to a normal), Key Wests (a trait that is certainly heritable, and may or may not have a super), and Roswells (which again are heritable, and appear to produce the same type of super phenotype when bred together), are all very identifiable. They are advertised as they are (i.e. Aztec, Roswell, Key West), and not super eryhristic, mayan phase, blue smoke up my ass, key west, with possible visable het for anus. They are definable morphs. Yours sadly are so badly describe, both in photos, and in words, that it makes it impossible to determine what is what.

Further more, while Roswells and possible Key Wests may have Bcc and Mci genetic backgrounds, yours are Cancun x Colombia x Hog x Nicaraguan x whatever else. The gene pool is so muddied that determining which trait is actually genetic and not polygenetic is next to impossible with your current breedings.

There is not one time in the past x number of years that I have not seen people ask for clear, concise pictures with simplified, non wordy descriptions. Yet, each time you go off on one saying that nobody sees exactly what you see.

People will pay money for morphs that can be clearly understood. Those that cannot even have a defined name given to them is a long shot.

Warren
-----
Dr Warren Booth / Director USARK
North Carolina State University
Department of Entomology

Hey DeHart... Thanks for the entertainment for the Day.
-----
Richard Ceniceros

Lets see how many people jump into the 'Smoke Mayan' Project.

Hey De Hart you better start making a waiting list.
-----
Richard Ceniceros

I can't remember seeing a longer one....

As entertaining as it is.. I can't take it anymore.
The World isn't against you. You have the some of the most intelligent and helpful people here
in the business trying to help you.. You actually have a Dr. trying to help you?? Yet you don't see it..
Actually you REFUSE to.

I've seen your posts for years now.. I don't think I'm out of line by saying your completely nuts...
Every time you post it gets worse.. The boas you have pictured before are nothing..
They are mutts.. Flat out terrible mutts.

Your descriptions are OFFENSIVE to Aztecs, Jungles, T+s, and whatever else you compare them to.
Please don't refer to these proven morphs again in your posts..

Best thing you can do is lay low and enjoy your animals to avoid further embarrassment..

And for those who read this post here's a couple pics to make it worth the time...
Believe it or not that's a real Jungle.!