Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can anyone tell me what the meaning of these two phrases are and the proper way to do it? I'm pretty sure I have it figured out but I would love some expereinced advice here.

Bonding is an adhesive to bind to pieces together. Like bondo.

Grouping is a term used in shooting. Having a tight shot group means you are a good shooter.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

LOL

Also "Grouping" is when more than 15 people show up at the mall dressed as groupers and the do the wave.

Kerby...
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Life is like a bunch of fish in an aquarium....we all get along (bonding) until I want to eat you....and I do.

I have done it with this product many times in the past when bonding new concrete or mortar to old work.

~Doug

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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

OOOHHHH!!! So thats what you use to glue together your plastic shoebox tubs that you keep you snakes in!

And again LOL

Hey not sure if you even saw my response to your joke in the other thread or not, but I wanted to keep you hanging for a while before telling you I was only joking myself!!!! Hahaha! Gotcha! Maybe it got removed before you even saw it - I don't know.

This place is having the hell moderated out of it lately. Cindy's crackin the whip! LOL!

.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Ahahhaahaha!!!! Not THAT'S funny! LOL!

h

well i would suggest you read up before just throwing snakes together, theres some great info here on the forum, try the link i provided and search the archives as well, good luck!
,,,,,,,,thomas davis
bonding discussion

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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

www.captivebred.com/Co-Habitating%20lampropeltis.htm
A helpful guide as to how to do this.

My 08 trio breeding this spring. They were put together last fall at brumation when they had totally gone off eating for the season, and wintered together. Are still together.

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Thank you for the great questions.

If you do read back on the recent discussions(not sure thats accurate, more like defensive smokescreens), those questions are not asked.

Grouping is to keep snakes(reptiles) in more then a single individual per cage.

Grouping is actually a begining, the real name is colonies. Colonies, lead to the meaning of bonding. Bonded pairs choose to stay around other pairs to form a colony.

So groups are when you put a nunber if individuals of the same species together(rare but possible with different species)

A colony is when they accept and function together, as in, they choose to be together. This is taken from nature when we find numbers of the same species, in very small areas, same burrow, crevice etc, year after year. Sometimes for short periods of time, say a month, other times, up to year around, most commonly half the year.

In captivity a colony is when a group of animals, work together. That is, they stay together trouble free, they feed together, they pair up and copulate without problem, and do so repeatedly.

We have also noted when you remove a member of the colony, the rest become aggitated for a period of time, then if that individual is returned, they return to normal.

To bond, is when to individuals, choose to be with eachother on their own accord. That is a male and female choose to stay around eachother(to attend) for the above periods of time, year after year and clutch after clutch.

Bonding also includes many unique behaviors like assisting in nesting, guarding the nest, and taking care of the offspring. Brooding etc. And yes, snakes do this.

Lets take a wild example, i watched colonies of pyros for many many years. I watched three seperate colonies in one area. The same males and females lived, bred, nested, in one small area. With pyros, they bond in pairs and stay in colonies. So they same pairs can be found together with other pairs.

Once a friend of mine decided to open a colonie, that is, destroy it by digging it up. The curiosity was toooo much for him. He found 16 hatchlings, a number of hatched eggs, a number of unhatched eggs, six gravid females, three males, under one piece of cover. of course, that area was ruined. But the information is of value. I did not like what he did.

I also watched L.m.thayeri, and they lived in colonies, but nested seperate from eachother.

When observing these groups or colonies, I commonly noted the same males with the same females, that is, coiled next to and attending, in this case attending means the male follows the female where ever she goes. Which is normally the case with kings.

After decades of watching this, they stayed together an average of 8 years, which means, some were longer, others shorter.

With some other species like gilas and diamondbacks, I have been watching the same pairs TOGETHER for over 30 years and in the exact same place they were in the first year, Others moved as the spot they choose became unsuitable.

Such things as trees(shade) or plant growth, and destruction by their own hands(gilas) were the cause of a change in site.

In some cases, a pair would be together for many years, then split and form pairs with other individuals.

If you set up a cage properly, and its easy to do, they will do this in captivity.

The method of how they choose mates and colonies, is very important.

Normally, they bond as neonates during the brooding stage. That is, they hatch or are born together then choose to be around those animals. In many cases, it also means, several to many clutches from the same area(colony)

In captivity, it can be done with older individuals, but the degree of bonding my never be reached. In these cases, the animals just learn to tolerate eachother and not bond.

Like with any behavior, they are many degrees of bonding, and many forms of colonies.

In nature, prevailing conditions perdict how these animals will work. That is, if an area cannot support large colonies, then you may only see pairs.

Also, If the habitat can support these colonies and pairs, without the need to search for prey, they pairs stay together year around, if not, they may seperate during feeding season, then return to the same spot normally early winter. Then seperate early summer after the breeding season.

Its also species dependant, that is, some species or locals behave differently then others. The same, just different degrees. Some in tight groups in a small area, others cover large areas.

All the kings on this form can and will form bonded pairs and colonies, if supported, particularly when young. If supported, they will CHOOSE to do so.

Just a thought, I know of no social animal that if raised singly with no contact with others of its species, until adulthood, that will behave normally. That is common with all animals.

Yet, many fine folks here, somehow think you can raise them in solitary confinement until adulthood, then toss them together, in a tiny shoebox and think they are suppose to bond and form colonies. Sir, that is what I call the apex of naivity. or better.

Even raised in such a horrible manner, some individual snakes will still pair bond and form colonies. Which is a testament to their strenght.

Sorry, feigning conflict to draw a crowd! Lol .

Very interesting. Thanks for posting it. I appreciate the effort and thoroughness.
As I'm sure you already know I love Pyros. ALWAYS glad to hear wild observations about these animals I like so much but will never see in their natural state.

If it's ok with you, I don't want to fight about any of this.

Maybe next time? Lol

Have a good one.

Bob.

Thanks,

Not to hijack my own reply, but I will.

In nature, what is even more interesting is. Each local can be as different in behavior as different species.

That is, Pyros from one mountain or mountain range, do have behaviors predicted by that local. As such, they are behaviorally different, then the next mountain, mountian range, or even canyon.

They are so behaviorally different, that they as a colony do not recognize other pyros as pyros. This is a concept that escapes many here.

Many here, go by books, if the book calls them the same, who cares what they call eachother. Well they care, thats who.

So yes, different colonies, behaviorally consider themselves different and they do not read our books or do Mtdna samples. They are HOW they behave and how they smell.

More accurately, they are what they smell like. If a snake does not smell like a member of their colony, then its not. its that simple. They have no need to go farther then that. If its not us, then eat it or drive it off, or ignore it.

More thread hijack, in nature, what helped us to understand these animals was placement. We think directly along the line of a level field. That is, snakes are together, if sitting next to eachother, on eachother, etc. On a floor or flat plain, etc.

Yet in nature, that is only a small part of the game. In nature, they live in a rubics cube. That is, part above the ground, part under the ground and part on the ground. So a pair can be "together" if one individual is one small rock above the other, on a branch next to the other. Or one over and one up, etc. Or coiled on the ground.

As in different parts of the rubics cude. We limit our interpitation to one plain, they do not. We think simplistically, they do not bother to think about that.

Then couple that with their "world of smell" They do not have to be in direct flesh contact to be together, but they must be in direct olfactory contact to be together. That is, they use scent markings, scent trails, as well as physical contact to define what being together is.

We often find snakes coil in waiting, Well there are many reasons for this, one is ambush feeding and their coils will give that away, another is to SIT on a scent of their mate. They wait there until there mate returns. of course, they may be waiting for the sun, etc. again there are clues. But to figure that out, you must not distrub them, and you must be patient and WATCH. Most herpers including researchers cannot keep their friggin mitts off the snakes.

If you watch your snakes, and I mean to the smallest degree, you should notice, they become aware by sight, but that has to be confirmed by smell, then by physical contact. That is, one individual will see the other, crawl up and smell the other, then touch the other, then decide to attract or repell the other individual.

If snakes left slime trails like snails, our understanding of their behavior would be WAY better. hahahahahahahaha

Now for a rant. Most including our researchers are so simplistic, they only go by(research) one element of what snakes do, like, we found them apart or together, physically. They do not investigate deep enough to learn to "SEE" trails, scent trails, etc. The before and after tell you more then the moment you found them.

Some of this is so simple, a newbie with two eyes can do it. Even one eye! like take a captive snake place it outside and watch it. See what it does. Most don't because of all manner of fears, just like the fears they have about keeping.

The individual snakes normally, crawl a short distance, then retract, they follow their previous trial and extend it, then retract, etc etc. They do this is NOT threatened. Of course if your chasing them, they run. Guess what, mice do the same. They tell you they are most comfortable following their own scent trail. Again, watch their tongues.

The problem is study methods, in the past and currently, the study methods are based on biology, not ethlogy. Biology is physical properties. Not behavioral properties. Phyiscal properties are A B C D E F G etc, behavioral properties are the areas between those letters and how they interact with eachother. And they do not have to be in order, and consistant. Biology wants consistancy. Behavior wants tendencies.

Again, in captivity, most want A B C. unfortunately, behavior does not do that. Behavior controls that. hahahahahahahahahaha Biology is the machine, behavior is the driver.

Most here keep the machine parked in the garage and wonder why it won't run. hahahahahahahahaha Ok I am off to being silly again. later

Lol.

Very cool, a LOT to consider sir.

Thank you.

I think that FR was pretty thorough in this post. It also ansers a lot of questions as to why some older herpers think bonding is not possible. Or at least WHY they are confused. But i doubt, at this point at least, they are open. Most will run away from this with their ears closed and eyes shut. If not for any other reason because they spent so much time and effort trying to oppose this.

The word "tolerate" has been used quite a bit. FR mentions that older snakes introduced seem to tolerate each other than bond.

It is amazing how many folks on here are not willing to give this a chance. Instead playing word games. Espcially those that say "they are called KINGSNAKES for a reason"... PLEEEEEZ, gimme a break!

One thing i can tell on here. That most people that are opposed to this whole bonding thing simply have not developed a "green thumb" for their snakes. Even though they have kept snakes for 20 years! They can talk and type all they want and seem real smart to convince newbies.. But have they really learned anything from their snakes? I think not. But if they did learn something, then why are they run away scared from a discussion on husbandry? And why try to assinate peoples characters and make it about people and not the snakes???

Smoke screen anyone?
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www.Bluerosy.com

Yeah. And assimilating/contemplating challenging with new ideas is really helped by going nyah, nyah, nyah, Nyah, Nyah Nyah! .......?

i really agree with bluerosy. I do not like the fact that his reply was about people, but without question, its all about people and their behavior. So yes, Bluerosy is right.

More, it seems that those folks, want to all be equal. that is, if they agree, no one is more or less then the other. Funny, life cannot do that. Each and everyone of you IS different and has a different level of experience, goals, understanding etc, SO YOU CANNOT BE THE SAME, yet you try to from peer groups, so you will be the same. God I love behavior.

Any, you said, they try to avoid new concepts or methods or something like that.

The reality is, these concepts are not new, they are the original basic concepts that these snakes have practiced for a very long time, thousands and thousands of years.

Stuffing them in shoeboxes and support them to only make eggs, is NEW to them. In a sense, people are attempting to make these snakes queen bees. That do nothing but make eggs.

That concept leads to JLassiters post about colubrids and over production. The only reward for shoe box keeping is, making babies. Period. So they must make babies and that is the only goal.

If you want the industry to prosper, then you must include more then that. you must include the joy of keeping and learning, or all your going to get is, tooooo many offspring and no value.

In effect, shoe boxes(any plastic box) is what is killing the industry, Its a hobby of making babies, as such, the market will always be flooded. Think what it would be like if 50% of the market did not care about making babies, instead kept snakes for the joy and education of keeping snakes??????????? now I really diverted my own thread, someone spank me. Please

you make me feel guilty for having shoeboxes, as always thanks for the reality check.
i have a store and sell to the general public and inevitably i have customers coming back to get in on "snake breedin" its a sad truth that "man" has to be this way and is ABSOLUTELY why the colubrid market is dead, unfortunately i see no help other than as you said promote behaviour, husbandry, etc.
on the other hand many of my customers have no want to breed or sell and do have a genuine interest in simple observation, but it certainly doesnt even out.
sadly it has become a hobby of making babies
the truth hurts but needs to be acknowledged and realized, i appluad you for speaking it.

,,,,,,,,,thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Great points Thomas and FR, but isn't it exciting to see baby snakes pipping?
It still is to this day for me, although I've only been doing this for 17 years or so......Not 20 to 40 years like lots of you all....lol

Once a keeper sees those neo noses peering out of the eggs they become a breeder because they want to continue seeing that....It is inevitable.

At least it was for me.......

The problem is that folks think they can get into this hobby and try to make a business out of it....a get rich quick concept......That is why there are so many folks that have their "business" for only a year or so until they realize that they cannot get rich off of something that someone else already has.

I do wish the "pet" snake was a bigger reality....It seems 95% or more of the people who purchase or receive a snake from me are breeders too or folks that want to eventually breed......
Few just want pet snakes.......
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

When I began to build my collection I wanted both pets and potential breeders. Now that I have 21 pyros, that part of my collection is complete. Next year I expect more pyro babies from my adults. I likely wont be buying any more pyros for the foreseeable future. I have two pairs of gopher snakes and one big girl by herself, and the pair of bull snakes, with babies expected from the bulls so don't think I will buy any more pits either for awhile.

I think my situation with my pet snakes is pretty representative of the general hobbyist market consumer. We get our babies, they grow up and begin to reproduce, and the desire to keep on buying more snakes changes over to needing to buy more equipment! LOL! Its sort of like the California Gold Rush; first people came for the gold, then clever entrepreneurs came to sell stuff to the miners.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

" I do wish the "pet" snake was a bigger reality....It seems 95% or more of the people who purchase or receive a snake from me are breeders too or folks that want to eventually breed......
Few just want pet snakes....... "

John,

I firmly believe that reality alone is the single, solitary reason the market appears very crowded. Everyone breeds snakes. Not enough demand for the increased supply. Demand is not exceeding supply. No matter what anyone says, or what any breeder tries to give the illusion of, there are so many snakes on the classifieds being posted over and over again, and not anyone sells out at shows. There is not enough buyers for all of these snakes, IMO.

So, the problem is, like you said, not enough of the " pet snake " mentality is abounding. I saw that attitude more in the early to mid nineties fortunately, and had the pleasure of selling to many people who wanted pet snakes at shows, along with the wholesaling I did. Now, times are different. IMO, the differences are:

A) The existence of the internet. Now, you can make yourself look like a professional business with the help of technology.

B) The growth of the reptile industry has resulted in more breeders within providing business to each other, rather than the average joe off the street looking for a pet. Problem is, the amount of breeders can either grow or shrink at any given time, which then decreases or increases sales to each other. Then the cycle happens, the all too familiar result of everyone buying everything: Supply outweighs demand, prices fall, then people whine, and then, the next " big thing " in breeding is discovered. Cycle repeated.

The herp market does have itself to blame though. Think about it...books, literature, and information give breeding details, promote breeding, and encourage reproduction. Classified ads and sales are geared a lot of the times to sell as pairs only. All of this is a great thing!!!!!!!! The main thing to remember, is that any customer that buys a pair of snakes off of you will be your competition in the future, if they keep that pair and breed it. It is just that simple.

It is just appearing that having snakes just as pets, like you said, has fallen behind, and that bothers me. I have known some who will not buy a snake unless as a pair. I mean, come on! If you see something you like, you don't HAVE to breed it. Buy it and enjoy have another aspect of difference in your collection.

As someone who buys for pets only, and has for 14 years now, I love it, and enjoy it immensely. I have paid and will pay top dollar for the most choice of specimens, if it is something I am dying to have. To me, that is just part of having a collection of pets you love and enjoy studying and admiring in detail, their habits and wonder.

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Genesis 1:1

I concur!.....................
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

I definitely agree with that. Those are all realistic facts that really can't be argued. I have talked about those very same things with people for quite a while now.

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

The breeding aspect is what makes this so addicting! There's no feeling in the world like seeing baby snakes poke their heads out of eggs, and especially when your expecting to maybe produce something new. I have always had breeding in my blood. When I was a kid I bred hamsters, as an adult I've bred everything from Jack Russell Terriers to Chickens, and all sorts of Reptiles and Turtles. Ask your self what will generate more demand a generation of pet keepers, or a generation of Breeders? As a keeper I might keep 10 snakes, but as a Breeder I have nearly 200.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

It sounded like you said you used to breed hamsters?

>>It sounded like you said you used to breed hamsters?

sicko!.......lmao!
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John Lassiter
Poor planning and procrastination on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...

till you've tried it, lol!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

But I am not a Zoo Keeper! I am a breeder, whose goal is to produce snakes as efficiently as I can. I do try my best to keep the snakes happy, and healthy, but I can not make elaborate cages for each one. That is reality. Most of the guys here are in the same boat. Those who specialize in one species and are studying them in more natural settings and are not really interested in producing them are satisfied with that, and I take my hat off to them! But even your biggest fans here keep snakes in tubs, some keep quite a few in small tubs, so who is this message for?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Yeah, that's all I usually see here too. It's similar to walking into a store and the employee walks up and tells you "your mother wears Army boots, and you look goofy", then wants to know why you don't want to buy anything there..LOL!

..........geeez, what a comedy show this always is.

And funnier yet, I will now get insulted for stating a very obvious observation..LOL!!!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

heres one like that, last night I was out having wings and the cute young waitress, said, its funny but lots of guys ask for my phone number, then don't tip me. What are they thinking? hahahahahahahaha

So what did you do?..HAHAA!!

~Doug
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"a snake in the grass is a GOOD thing"

serpentinespecialties.webs.com

Leave a really good tip, I could have said a really big tip, but that could be misconscrewed, hahahahahahahaha

thats what the forum needs, TRUTH
love it...
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"Just a thought, I know of no social animal that if raised singly with no contact with others of its species, until adulthood, that will behave normally. That is common with all animals."

that's the truthiest statement i've read on here in a while.

Okay, I have read this whole long thread with the usual catcalls and bullroar, but this post is worth a response. Thanks, FR, for such an interesting account on the observation of wild pyros in their native habitats.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Hey Bob, you got a lot of nerve coming in here with all your condescending, trash talking, over the top, high and mighty ego. What are you thinking?!!! Everything was going fine till you came in. Geez. 1 step forward, 2 steps back. I swear! Talk about a buzz kill. You just had to ruin it...hope you're happy now!

Hey Bob, you got a lot of nerve coming in here with all your condescending, trash talking, over the top, high and mighty ego. What are you thinking?!!! Everything was going fine till you came in. Geez. 1 step forward, 2 steps back. I swear! Talk about a buzz kill. You just had to ruin it...hope you're happy now!

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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Oh yeah sure...attack me now. That's just great.

Hahahhaha!!!!

Doctor Pyromaniac recommends:

Followed with beverage of choice, preferably of high alcohol content! LOL!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

Hahahahahha!!!!!! Love it.

And another thing, you said something about pyros a minute ago, well.....that's...that's.....just stupid! You must be insecure and and such!

A couple of these, too! Help you feel better and such...
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.