Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I know we go back and forth, but i have a little more information.

They are having the BOR meetings here, the biology of the rattlesnakes.

I have attended a few of the afternoon talks, and there are a zillion talks.

A few of the talks were on brooding and social behavior.

To make it quick, as I have to go back to the meetings,

One talk placed cameras and watched females brooding their young, they also had females brooding neonates not their own offspring. They also showed them coiling together, then one leaving, then later the other following the scent trail of the first.

They also had males interact with both the females and neonates.

The great thing about rattlesnakes is, they will do this exposed, mostly in, but at times exposed under the right conditions.

The problem with kingsnakes is, they do this mostly in and out of sight. As I have mentioned, I have watched a few sites where pyros did this semi exposed.

What great about rattlesnakes is, they teach you the sequence. Then you can compare key elements to kingsnakes.

Doing that, FILLS in the gapes far better then, I see nothing, i know nothing. hahahahahahahaha

Later.

Here's to this thread remaining insult free....

>>Here's to this thread remaining insult free....

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>Here's to this thread remaining insult free....

I hope it does, because i also was in that talk and was totally fascinated when she was talking about it. I dont do communal cages for multiple reasons, but the primary is I have no interest in breeding. I will say the talk was amazing and the video footage and stories behind it was very cool. I am happy to see more studies were focusing on behavior rather than purely the medical and venom ends as well as the side of natural history. I think more studies on behavior are def needed
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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FR,
Stop making this your playground. You have no proof of this. They probably still eat each other.

LOL!
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www.Bluerosy.com

I could see how rattlesnakes would brood their young as they give live birth. King snakes lay eggs then generally leave the nest and the young hatch several weeks later. Not saying it is not possible as you did say pyros do brooding behavior, but just seems implausible. I would try seeing if my pyros would do this with their young if I could create a really big habitat mimicking their native rock outcroppings.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

for teats.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Another reptile that broods her young:

us1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/3354/SELF-SACRIFICE_IN_ANIMALS

I did look for teats on my snakes and found a pair! Nah, those were hemipenises...darn!
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

There are a few, but I seriously doubt Kings are one of them.
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

>>us1.harunyahya.com/Detail/T/EDCRFV/productId/3354/SELF-SACRIFICE_IN_ANIMALS

lost me at "As expressed in the 68th verse of the Surat an-Nahl, which says "Your Lord revealed to bees…"..." Farther down it refers to birds that can mimic speech as "The miracle of talking birds..." And chimpanzees as caring, adoptive parents. Has anyone here ever read of how brutal chimps can be to others?

I don't think the answer's here. But an entertaining link.

Of all the animals in the animal kingdom, the only species I really hate is the chimpanzee. I don't think they are cute or appealing in any way. A wild band of chimpanzees will attack and kill a weaker band.

The crocodile was the thing of interest, being another reptile.
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Bob
Pyromaniac AKA Greatballzofire
Keeping cats allows man to cohabitate with tigers. Keeping reptiles allows man to cohabitate with dinosaurs.

pan troglodytes, yes - but pan paniscus, no

bonobos, or pygmy chimps, deal with social situations in a more civilized manner. sex.

Comparing rattle snakes to, Kingsnakes is not convincing eveidence to me. Rattle snakes congregate by the hundreds in dens, they are very different to Kingsnakes. So I don't see how it correlates?
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Exactly!!

Could not have said it better myself.
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Genesis 1:1

>>Comparing rattle snakes to, Kingsnakes is not convincing eveidence to me. Rattle snakes congregate by the hundreds in dens, they are very different to Kingsnakes. So I don't see how it correlates?

I don't have anything against Frank's using the rattlesnake examples to argue that his kingsnake theories warrant further consideration.

But you're right, the fact that species A does it doesn't prove species B does it too. Consider birds: there are plenty that nest in isolation, and others that colony breed, that in captivity seem to require the presence of multiple others of their species before building nests and reproducing. I know kingsnakes don't require immersion in a group to breed. Do rattlesnakes? Or to Crotalus keepers often breed successfully from just a single pair of animals?

I've never kept or bred rattlesnakes so I don't know if single pairs breed.

I do know of wild L. zonata overwintering together, at least in small groups. I have also found juvenilles and adults together and have wondered for a long time whether the juvenilles follow the scent trails of adults. Adult sexual pairs and trios together are very common as well. Overall I've seen very strong evidence of communal behavior in L. zonata.

I have also heard a story of over 80 L. pyromelana eggs being found in a communal nest site. Some of the eggs supposedly contained embryos and some were long since hatched. I don't know if this is a true story but if it is it's very significant. It would have to mean way more than one female was laying eggs there and would also indicate that more than one generation used it.
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www.hcu-tx.org/

Good on you, I am sure you do not. And that is your problem. later

>>Good on you, I am sure you do not. And that is your problem. later

Sorry, I use logic! Cheers!
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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

My main question with this is in regards to you guys saying that some that were not bonded early learn to just TOLERATE other snakes.

I live in AZ in between northern and southern ranging pyros from prescott and payson all the way down to the huachucas santa ritas and chiricauhas and yes I TOTALLY agree that they are social and I have even seen the same with San Bernardino zonata, BUT I have also had snakes introduced for the first time, such as my breeder pyros and my wild caught Parvirubra, and have not seen this tolerating that you speak of. I leave my pyros and zonata together from spring through late summer now and have seen no problems and they still seem just as social with no one seeming agitated EVER.
I have produced a clutch of pyros for my second time and if it wasn't for infertility would have done the same with zonata.

so.... Is this bonding or just tolerating?? these animals were introduced as adults.

Theres something you have to understand. You think of them as species. They have no concept of that nor any ability to do Mtdna. They know of eachother as a group, any other that is not of that group, is not one of them.

They do not have a species concept.

What you need to think about is, when we have a group of reptiles that are the same species, then are split into different species, which pyros seem to be headed in that direction. Do we treat them any different in captivity. They were the same species not there not. hmmmmmmmm

You see, our names for them, is meaningless to them.

how and why they recognize eachother as the same IS IMPORTANT to them, and that should be important to us. But its not.

Do you get this. They go by function, as in, what they do. We go by lab tests and nothing to do with how they function.

hmmm.... well, I have always looked at all my animals as more than just a species level and thats why I have all locale specific animals, but as far as if they care about this at all, Im not so sure.
My friends who breed hybrids... Every year I see this and his snakes breed as if they were the same species. His honduran milksnake and banana california king always breed, never once letting him down. They are no where near the same and never look agitated.

pyro pyro x pyro knob x zonata x durango..... I dont like this but I see it a lot and they breed no problem... ?????

pyro pyro x pyro knob x zonata x durango..... I dont like this but I see it a lot and they breed no problem... ?????

Some species are hard to get to breed. For instane the hondurans to kingsnakes. Hondos are very strong and can ward off a hypo horney male by thrashing the tail.

Once you have a certain speies in a mixed hybrids . it is easy to breed them to any of the same species.

Example:

Anything with ratsnake breeds with anything w/ ratsnake in it...also ratsnakes breed easily with cal kings.

the smaller species like pyros, durangos, variable kings, ect breed well to create fist time hybrids..and when mixed with a ratsnake or getula can breed all those.

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www.Bluerosy.com

I definitely like the bonding idea and group and social behavior subject but I also don't think its limited to just a local specific status.
At what point do you put your animals together for this bonding??? Just introduction or keep them together?? Do you feed in or out of cage??

At what point do you put your animals together for this bonding???

I put them together when they are yearling or feeding on large mice. I ONLY intoduce them during winter brumation period. When spring arrives they are bonded and stay together.

Just introduction or keep them together?? Do you feed in or out of cage??

I keep them together. I feed them together. I just throw in a pile of food and they share.

Out of thousands of Floridas kept together for sevral years... Once in a blue moon two will go after the same rodent/chick.It happens very rarely. I don't seperate them. I learned by watching them to see what happens. They let go and continue on feeding.Beofre i used to freak out and take them out to seperate. Then one time i just hung around and sawy that they evntually calm down and let go of each other and resume feeding on the F/T food.

I just feed everything (dump a pile of F?T rodents or chicks) and walk out of the snake room. The snakes KNOW each other and when I return they are all fed.

This is with properly bonded kings. And I use the word "properly" becaue I would not reccomend bonding older snakes or trying to bond them during spring and summer.

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www.Bluerosy.com

I can only speak for myself, but I do not include certain Kings and milks in this. When I speak of snakes merely tolerating others, I am refering to the common Kings (Getula). I have tried putting a group of Floridas in the same tub to take a group picture and they looked like loaded springs. They seemed to know that DANGER was associated with that situation. Not one was interested in sticking around long enough to investigate. This tells me that their natural first instinct is to flea!

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King Snakes! Who can make a better mouse trap?
Jorge Sierra

My Site > www.Sierrasnakes.com

Ahhh... All of these tips and advice on introduction and species bonding makes more sense, because it is what I do anyways.
I only keep pyros, zonata, and some smaller milks, and have always introduced them during brumation and have brumated species like pyro and zonata together since naturally they share hibernacula in the wild, so I assumed this was what should be done. I have just never referred to this as bonding.
Thanks for everything guys!

DANGER was associated with that situation. Not one was interested in sticking around long enough to investigate. This tells me that their natural first instinct is to flea!

Yep! That is what they do when they are not bonded.

That is why it is for better for hobbiests to bond their snakes. Espcially if you are going to have them breed.

During breeding season i always read how eith the keeper keeps taking the male out of the cage and waiting for a time when one does not go crazy trying to flee. This is also a good way to miss the window for breeding.

Some oy snakes breed right out of brumation. Even before they eat and fatten up. What does that tell us? Because what most of us do is feed feed feed the females and then "we" think they should be ready to breed. The thing is females ovuilate during all different times. That is when a male will copulate.

With bondid pairs or groups. You can get more clcutches and it also eleviates snakes from getting fat (another debatable topic on here), but I feed my snakes all they can eat becau ethey are busy breeding and getting more excrsise than ones kept in a cage tyear round by themselves.

The only time i remove snakes and place them by themseleves is when a females is about to lay. Then they go right back into the group.
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www.Bluerosy.com

That I did not know you were there and did not get the chance to meet you frank... I thoroughly enjoyed the BOR talks. There is a breakdown of most of the talks from yesterday's session in our blog.
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Cindy Steinle
PHFaust
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